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You must have missed that the Old Covenant was pretty exclusively (with a few conversions) for the Hebrews/israelite's.The cross of Christ stands at a point in history as the only way of salvation because Jesus alone is the Savior. Yet, I believe the Bible reveals that all people who have ever lived have had various opportunities to respond to God in faith during different historical dispensations, whether it be through the testimony of creation, their God-given conscious, the law, or grace. I think the Bible indicates they will be judged by their response toward God according to the amount of the revelation they had.
I dunno because the Old Covenant was a nation covenant, not individual like the New Covenant.His chosen people still had a choice to love God or not.
If we chose God, we are chosen! He chose a people in the past so they were a chosen people (as we are now if we chose Him). But many chose devils and rebellion and death over Him. Many of the Jews in the end will die and just a remnant will be saved. So many of His chosen people were not saved apparently. The gentiles who chose Jesus were saved, because they chose Him, so they are the chosen ones. Of His chosen people, only the ones who also chose Jesus are saved. In the Old Testament, some chose GodSo who chooses His chosen people?
But not all Jews and not only Jews!Even Jesus said straight out that He came for the Jews. .
They were commanded to love God, so they had a choice to do so or not. Only those that chose Him in Israel were saved, not the nation as a whole that I recall.I dunno because the Old Covenant was a nation covenant, not individual like the New Covenant.
Remember the "I will be your God, and you will be my people".
God wasn't picking up everyone. God had His group. Plus it was not "love God", it was "obey God". The Old Covenant is a covenant of obedience. Not love.
If we chose God, we are chosen!
Yet, Abraham was called God's friend. Although, the old covenant focused on law-keeping and obedience, I believe it was nevertheless based on God's love and according to the NT those who who believed in the God of Israel lived by faith when they kept the law. And though God was dealing with His chosen people the nation of Israel as you have pointed out previously, others were always welcome to join if they desired to follow the God of Israel.I dunno because the Old Covenant was a nation covenant, not individual like the New Covenant.
Remember the "I will be your God, and you will be my people".
God wasn't picking up everyone. God had His group. Plus it was not "love God", it was "obey God". The Old Covenant is a covenant of obedience. Not love.
So God doesn't choose, but if we choose Him, we are chosen. That really distorts the meaning of chosen.If we chose God, we are chosen! He chose a people in the past so they were a chosen people (as we are now if we chose Him). But many chose devils and rebellion and death over Him. Many of the Jews in the end will die and just a remnant will be saved. So many of His chosen people were not saved apparently. The gentiles who chose Jesus were saved, because they chose Him, so they are the chosen ones. Of His chosen people, only the ones who also chose Jesus are saved. In the Old Testament, some chose God
(who also was Jesus) or believed that Jesus would come one day. It was not a predestined thing to where they had no real actual choice.
Calvinists seem to think that if someone falls or for a time has no good works (or what they think are good works) that they were never really saved and were predestined to hell.
As what usually happens in these threads, once Calvinism is mentioned, or someone who is Reformed posts something that seems Reformed, the arguments against Reformed Theology come out, and are usually emotionally driven straw man arguments.
This gets us nowhere because the Calvinists aren't really given the opportunity to defend what we believe, but have to spend time correcting the incorrect argument.
So here's the challenge. Below you will find links to some various documents that those who hold to Reformed Theology will agree on, at least soteriologically. The challenge to to quote from one of them, and then state why you believe it is incorrect. This will hopefully lead to a reasoned discussion. Any argument that does not start this way will be considered off topic. You are, however, free to start your own thread on that matter.
Here are your links.
The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (I would have used the Westminster Confession, but I'm Baptist)
Canons of Dordt
Heidelberg Catechism
Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin, Christian Classics Books, Bible Study
So God doesn't choose, but if we choose Him, we are chosen. That really distorts the meaning of chosen.
Whosoever believes.
No.Did you feel silly when you wrote that?
Says who? Either we really can chose or not. If we can, then we chose. If we chose we are chosen also. Two way street.So God doesn't choose, but if we choose Him, we are chosen. That really distorts the meaning of chosen.
Says who? Either we really can chose or not. If we can, then we chose. If we chose we are chosen also. Two way street.
Of course God chooses. But not the stuff He left up to us to choose!Why is it that you allow man to choose, but God has no choice? This creation is His to do with as He pleases, is He not?
Your god has to live with the choices of men. He is only as "sovereign" as men's choices allow Him to be.
No, if we choose God, He's the chosen one. Those who are chosen are the ones acted on.Says who? Either we really can chose or not. If we can, then we chose. If we chose we are chosen also. Two way street.
One, God doesn't choose anyone for eternal damnation. That's our default state. Paul says believers have the same nature as the children of wrath.How about a scripture that shows us God chooses some for salvation, while choosing others for eternal damnation.
God chooses for purpose, not salvation, for salvation is for whosoever believes.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
Whosoever believes.
Notice it doesn't say whosoever God chooses.
Case Closed.
One, God doesn't choose anyone for eternal damnation.
Obviously I disagree with Calvin.Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
Not if we do the choosing. Then we are His chosen people. A Royal Priesthood. A peculiar people. If we chose Jesus we are also chosen of Him. We are His chosen people. Our act of choosing results in eternal life. He chose to make it that way. He chose to make us His chosen people if we chose Him!No, if we choose God, He's the chosen one. Those who are chosen are the ones acted on.
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