rich rio

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The Holly spirit is telling me that I should just do as the word of God says to do in this situation. (Rev 22:11 & Luke 9:5).

Rev 22:11 K.J.V
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:11


Luke 9:5
And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
Luke 9:5 K.J.V

Well God bless!!
 
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rich rio

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I have only shown what Virginia Ramey Mollenkott has shared openly you can go read her web page. She is openly talks about what she believes and is a lesbian.
I have only states truth about Virginia.
That anyone can go read about here on her web page.

Also I have only shown what God word says about sexual immorality.

So I was only sharing truths. People don't like to be corrected by God that's why Virginia took out the word sodomite and replaced it with prostitute witch is not even within the same meaning of the word sodomite. Not even in the same ball park.

My intentions was to inform and if people feel a convicted by the Holly Spirit. They need to get on there knees and pray to God.
But did theses people that reported my post I dont know. All I know is that they reported my post and if they have had gotten on there knees and prayed to God they would have not reported my post.
They reported my post because they know its true. Well hey I will be praying For you all.
God bless!!!
 
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pescador

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I have only shown what Virginia Ramey Mollenkott has shared openly you can go read her web page. She is openly talks about what she believes and is a lesbian.
I have only states truth about Virginia.
That anyone can go read about here on her web page.

Also I have only shown what God word says about sexual immorality.

So I was only sharing truths. People don't like to be corrected by God that's why Virginia took out the word sodomite and replaced it with prostitute witch is not even within the same meaning of the word sodomite. Not even in the same ball park.

My intentions was to inform and if people feel a convicted by the Holly Spirit. They need to get on there knees and pray to God.
But did theses people that reported my post I dont know. All I know is that they reported my post and if they have had gotten on there knees and prayed to God they would have not reported my post.
They reported my post because they know its true. Well hey I will be praying For you all.
God bless!!!

Have you personally spoken to Dr. Mollenkott? If not then what you claim is heresay.

You still insist that she alone took out the word sodomite and replaced it with prostitute. What is your basis for saying this, knowing that the NIV was translated by a committee? If you can't prove this (and I'm sure that you can't) why do you keep repeating it?

In fairness, here is a quote from her web site: "All of her writings may be subsumed under the theme of oneness, which Mollenkott variously describes as an 'organic wholeness' and a 'transcendental integrative vision.' The emphasis is on seeing God in all things and serving God in all activities, integration of the human personality around a unifying center, and awareness of humanity's interdependence." That is an entirely different picture of the one you paint about this intelligent, accomplished woman.
 
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rich rio

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Virginia is a professed lesbian you can look her up she does not hide it. Its not here say.

Virginia Ramey Mollenkott - Wikipedia

Also anyone that does not know the difference between the words "Prostitute" which sell there body for sex; "Sodomite" which is an nationality of a person of where there from. Is most definitely NOT inspired by truth.
 
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Virginia is a professed lesbian you can look her up she does not hide it. Its not here say.

Virginia Ramey Mollenkott - Wikipedia

Also anyone that does not know the difference between the words "Prostitute" which sell there body for sex; "Sodomite" which is an nationality of a person of where there from. Is most definitely NOT inspired by truth.

She is a lesbian -- so what? You are still linking her with a single word translation with no evidence. It's getting old.

Your definitions of prostitute and sodomite are a joke.
 
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rich rio

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KJV Dictionary Definition: sodomite

sodomite

SOD'OMITE, n.

1. An inhabitant of Sodom.

2. One guilty of sodomy.


KJV Dictionary Definition: prostitute

prostitute

PROS'TITUTE, v.t. L.prostituo; pro and statuo, to set.

1. To offer freely to a lewd use, or to indiscriminate lewdness.

Do not prostitute thy daughter. Lev.19.

2. To give up to any vile or infamous purpose; to devote to any thing base; to sell to wickedness; as, to prostitute talents to the propagation of infidel principles, to prostitute the press to the publication of blasphemy.

3. To offer or expose upon vile terms or to unworthy persons.

PROS'TITUTE, a. Openly devoted to lewdness; sold to wickedness or to infamous purposes.

Made bold by want and prostitute for bread.

PROS'TITUTE, n. A female given to indiscriminate lewdness; a strumpet.

1. A base hireling; a mercenary; one who offers himself to infamous employments for hire.

No hireling she, no prostitute to praise.

prostituted

PROS'TITUTED, pp. Offered to common lewdness; devoted to base purposes.

prostituting

PROS'TITUTING, ppr. Offering to indiscriminate lewdness; devoting to infamous uses.

prostitution

PROSTITU'TION, n. L. prostituo.

1. The act or practice of offering the body to an indiscriminate intercourse with men; common lewdness of a female.

2. The act of setting one's self to sale, or offering one's self to infamous employments; as the prostitution of talents or abilities.

This next part is from someone that knows Hebrew way better then Virginia Ramey Mollenkott.

"Sodomite" or "Cult prostitute" in Deuteronomy 23:17 et al.?






"There shall be no harlot of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel." (Deuteronomy 23:17, KJV)


Cult prostitute?


The word translated "harlot" is the noun "קדשׁה (kedeshah)" and the word translated "sodomite" is the noun "קדשׁ (kadesh)". The first is the female form of the word and the second is the male form of the word. Since the verb form "קדשׁ (kadash)" means "to consecrate, sanctify, prepare, dedicate, be hallowed, be holy, be sanctified, be separate" (Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions), many scholars suppose that the noun form of both genders refers to a person associated with a cult or temple. The ESV, NASB and HCSB have "cult prostitute". The NIV has "shrine prostitute". The NLT has "temple prostitute". Jeffrey H. Tigay, Emeritus A.M. Ellis Professor of Hebrew and Semitic Languages and Literatures in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations at the University of Pennsylvania, disagrees with these modern translations as follows in his commentary on Deuteronomy 23:17:



"cult prostitute Rather, "prostitute." Hebrew kedeshah refers to a common prostitute elsewhere in the Bible, and that is probably its meaning here, synonymous with "harlot" in the next verse. This prohibition is similar to Leviticus 19:29, which prohibits a father from degrading his daughter by making her a harlot. There is scant justification for the translation "cult prostitute," a term used by modern scholars for a prostitute employed at a sanctuary. Although kedeshah means something like "holy woman," from the root k-d-sh ("holy," "set apart," "reserved"), etymology is not a reliable indication of meaning; in the present case it could simply be a euphemism like some other terms for prostitute. It is questionable whether cultic prostitution existed at all in the ancient Near East. See Excursus 22.



The meaning of the masculine kadesh here is uncertain. In the book of Kings it refers to a type of abhorrent pagan cultic functionary, mentioned on a par with high places, sacred pillars and sacred posts, and in association with the goddess Asherah. In Ugaritic it refers to cultic personnel lower than priests. There is reason to question whether the word has the same meaning here. A servant of a pagan deity would be banned by the general prohibition of paganism and would not require a separate law (there is no prohibition on kemarim, the other term for pagan priests). Even if it did require a separate law, one would expect a practice involving the worship of another god to be banned absolutely, and the text to say "let no kadesh be found among you" at all (cf. 18:10-11), not "no Israelite shall be a kadesh." It seems, therefore, that the kadesh in this verse is not a pagan official. Since the kedeshah is a prostitute, perhaps the kadesh here is a male prostitute, either heterosexual or homosexual. The term is not known to have this meaning elsewhere, but the order of the clauses in this verse may support this interpretation. Females are not usually listed before males; and perhaps this was done here in order to clarify the theme of the verse and indicate that here kadesh is another type of prostitute and does not have its usual meaning." (The JPS Torah Commentary: Deuteronomy, The Traditional Hebrew Text with the New JPS Translation Commentary by Jeffrey H. Tigay (Philadelphia : Jewish Publication Society, 1996), p. 215-216)


Apart from the kadesh-kadash connection, many scholars believe the people in verse 17 are associated with religious duties because verse 18 appears to prohibit a "secular" form of prostitution. Verse 18 mentions a "harlot" and a "dog". The word "harlot" in verse 18 is understood to be the word for a secular (i.e. recreational) female "harlot" or "harlot" (זנה (zanah), translated as "prostitute" in the ESV, NIV, NLT) and "dog" is understood to be a derogatory term referring to the male equivalent of the secular "harlot" or "harlot" (see NET Bible note 27 of Deuteronomy 23:18: "Heb “of a dog.” This is the common Hebrew term for a noncultic (i.e., “secular”) male prostitute."). Given this prohibition against a supposed secular form of prostitution in verse 18, many scholars believe that the prostitution in verse 17 is a different and more specific type of prostitution. However, this theory ignores the fact that Hebrew writing is replete with synonymous parallelisms which repeat what is essentially the same idea in order to emphasize an idea or to define an idea in pairs. The context suggests that "zanah" and "kedeshah/kadesh" are just two words to refer to the same thing - harlot/harlot. Consider the parallelism:
◾Deuteronomy 23:17: There shall be no harlot of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
◾Deuteronomy 23:18: Thou shalt not bring the hire of a harlot, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
The two verses must be understood as complimenting each other in prohibiting the same conduct, or else it leaves a legal loophole. If verse 17 is understood as prohibiting cult prostitution, it fails to prohibit secular prostitution - which is at odds with Old Testament ethics. If verse 18 is understood as a prohibition on bringing the avails of secular prostitution into the house of the LORD, it fails to prohibit the bringing of the avails of cult prostitution into the house of the LORD - which, again, seems odd. The complete code of prohibiting the ungodly profession of prostitution as well as the sacrilege of bringing the avails of prostitution into the house of the LORD can only be accomplished if verse 17 and verse 18 are understood as part of a synonymous parallelism that prohibits prostitution in general as well as the bringing in of the avails of all types of prostitution into the house of the LORD. After seeing how illogical it is to ban one type of prostitution while not banning the use of its proceeds, and to ban the use of the proceeds of another type of prostitution but not the prostitution itself, one could hardly maintain the idea that two different types of prostitution are in view at verses 17 and 18. Another Jewish commentary supports the disassociation of kadesh from any religious duty:


"sodomites. This rendering follows the Targum, and the Talmud (Sanh. 54b) explains that the verse refers to male prostitutes. This was common among the heathens, but is denounced as abominable in Lev. xviii. 22 and prohibited in Deut. xxiii. 18f." (Kings, The Soncino Books of the Bible: Hebrew Text & English Translation with an Introduction and Commentary, edited by Rabbi Abraham Cohen, by Rev. Dr. I. W. Slotki, and revised by Rabbi E. Oratz (New York : Soncino Press, 1990), p. 108).




Promiscuous man



While Tigay refutes the modern translation of "cult prostitute", he does not exactly support the KJV translation of "sodomite". He provides a theory suggesting male prostitute but ultimately says "The meaning of the masculine kadesh here is uncertain." As explained in another Jewish translation of Deuteronomy 23:17 and commentary, it may not be necessary to narrow the meaning of kadesh to prostitution. The word signifies a person who is sexually immoral in a general sense:


"There shall be no one dedicated to immorality of the daughters of Israel, and no one dedicated to immorality of the sons of Israel....

...Just as קדוש is the complete surrender to what is morally lofty and good so is קדש the surrender to what is morally low and bad. An analogy can be found in the root כבר, which as כבור designates the impression of the spiritual moral content, and as כבר the impression of the material content. Immorality is every sexual intercourse which has not had the dedication of קידושין [sanctification]...."

(The Pentateuch: Translated & Explained, Samson Raphael Hirsch, Vol. V Deuteronomy, rendered into English by Isaac Levy, 2nd Edition (New York : Bloch Publishing Company, 1966), p. 465)


Likewise, the Stone Edition Tanach, by the respected Mesorah Heritage Foundation, edited by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and other Rabbis, translates Deuteronomy 23:17 (verse 18 in the Hebrew) as:


"There shall not be a promiscuous woman among the daughters of Israel, and there shall not be a promiscuous man among the sons of Israel."



If promiscuity is what is suggested by kadesh, then verse 17 prohibits promiscuity and verse 18 prohibits bringing in the proceeds of commercial promiscuity (i.e. prostitution) into the house of the LORD. The synonymous parallelism of verses 17 and 18 still makes sense.





Sodomite



As for why the KJV uses the term "sodomite" to translate kadesh, the KJV translators appeared to follow Rashi's commentary which runs alongside the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible. Rashi explains the text as follows:




"ולא יהיה קדש: מזומן למשכב זכר"






זכר למשכב
מזומן
קדש
יהיה ולא

H2145 H4904
N/A H6945
H1961
H3808

male to lie prepared kadesh there be nor

"nor shall there be kadesh: one prepared to lie with a male" (Translation by KJV Today)




The Pentateuch and Rashi's Commentary: A Linear Translation into English (Rabbi Abraham Ben Isaiah & Rabbi Benjamin Sharfman (New York : S.S.& R. Publishing Company, 1977), p. 211) translates Rashi's "למשכב זכר" as "pederasty", which refers to sexual acts between an adult male and a young male:






The Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi's Commentary, a free online resource at The Complete Tanach with Rashi's Commentary - English translation with Rashi's commentary translates Rashi's commentary at Deuteronomy 23:17 as "one [i.e., a male] ready for homosexual relations". The context of Deuteronomy 23:17 also supports the association of kadesh with sex between males. Though crude an image, the reference to "dog" in verse 18 which corresponds to "sodomite" in the synonymous parallelism suggests sexual intercourse resembling that which is performed by dogs.

As the term "homosexual" was introduced into the English language as late as 1892 (Online Etymology Dictionary: homosexual (adj.)), the word used by the KJV translators in 1611 was "sodomite". The meaning of "sodomy" is derived as follows according to the Online Etymology Dictionary entry on "sodomy (n.):


c.1300, "unnatural sexual relations," such as those imputed to the inhabitants of Biblical Sodom, especially between persons of the same sex but also with beasts, from Old French sodomie, from Late Latin peccatum Sodomiticum "anal sex," literally "the sin of Sodom," from Latin Sodoma. In Middle English also synne Sodomyke (early 14c.).


Although the etymology of "sodomy" originated in medieval times, the identification of Sodom with "unnatural sexual relations" originated in Jude 1:6-7:


6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


While "sodomy" carries a strong connotation of sexual acts between persons of the same sex, the meaning is not restricted to only this type of sexual act. As defined in Noah Webster's 1828 English Dictionary, "SOD'OMY, noun [is] A crime against nature." The broadness of the term served as a blanket condemnation of all types of sexual behaviors performed outside the scope of procreation between a man and a woman. However, the word signifies what was considered the most unnatural of all these prohibited sexual behaviors, such as that demonstrated by the men of Sodom in Genesis 19 whose sexual behavior was devoid of any natural affection or commitment. Webster's reference to that which is against "nature" echoes the natural law theory of sexuality, which Thomas Aquinas explained as follows in Contra Gentiles, Book III, Part II, Chapter 122 (translated by Vernon J. Bourke):



[8] Again, we must consider that in the human species offspring require not only nourishment for the body, as in the case of other animals, but also education for the soul. For other animals naturally possess their own kinds of prudence whereby they are enabled to take care of themselves. But a man lives by reason, which he must develop by lengthy temporal experience so that he may achieve prudence. Hence, children must be instructed by parents who are already experienced people. Nor are they able to receive such instruction as soon as they are born, but after a long time, and especially after they have reached the age of discretion. Moreover, a long time is needed for this instruction. Then, too, because of the impulsion of the passions, through which prudent judgment is vitiated, they require not merely instruction but correction. Now, a woman alone is not adequate to this task; rather, this demands the work of a husband, in whom reason is more developed for giving instruction and strength is more available for giving punishment. Therefore, in the human species, it is not enough, as in the case of birds, to devote a small amount of time to bringing up offspring, for a long period of life is required. Hence, since among all animals it is necessary for male and female to remain together as long as the work of the father is needed by the offspring, it is natural to the human being for the man to establish a lasting association with a designated woman, over no short period of time. Now, we call this society matrimony. Therefore, matrimony is natural for man, and promiscuous performance of the sexual act, outside matrimony, is contrary to man’s good. For this reason, it must be a sin.



Therefore, the KJV's use of "sodomite", though appearing to follow Rashi's narrow interpretation of a male lying with another male, allows for the broader meaning of a male involved in unnatural sexual acts outside the scope of procreation. This would certainly include cult prostitution, secular prostitution, sex between males, and general sexual immorality and promiscuity. The word "sodomite", having a broad meaning in early modern English, is consistent with all known theories of the meaning of kadesh and carries the full force and meaning of the Hebrew word. The synonymous parallelism makes sense with verse 17 prohibiting sodomy and verse 18 prohibiting bringing the avails of commercial sodomy (i.e. "the price of a dog", i.e. the avails of male prostitution) into the house of the LORD. The KJV translates kadesh as "sodomite" on five other occasions in 1 Kings 14:24, 1 Kings 15:12, 1 Kings 22:46, 2 Kings 23:7. 1 Kings 14:24 says "there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel." This further demonstrates that "sodomites" refers to people engaged in all sorts of perversions and not just to people guilty of a particular profession."""
 
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Anguspure

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We are talking about two different things now. Your original position as I understand it was that people should read the Bible in its source languages to discover "hidden meanings" for themselves. There is no question that such activity can easily lead to all kinds of errors. From a Jewish point of view, one respects the meaning given by the rabbi (even though at the last Bar Mitzvah I attended the rabbi was clearly distorting scripture.)

Now you're talking about the Bereans examining the scriptures to see if Paul's preaching was true, an entirely different subject. Everyone should do this (see the example above) to verify any preaching they hear but that is not the same as discovering hidden meanings in the source languages.

I'm not going to go into a third and fourth subject except to say that the Orthodox of the New Testament were the Pharisees who examined the scriptures and so missed the living Messiah. Also, the Jewish position on immortality and afterlife is irrelevant in this discussion.

Please try to stay with the subject from now on.
No. My original meaning, if you read it, was that I would take translation with a pinch of salt and that where uncertainties arise consult the original text. I cannot for the life of me think of why this position is debatable.
 
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No. My original meaning, if you read it, was that I would take translation with a pinch of salt and that where uncertainties arise consult the original text. I cannot for the life of me think of why this position is debatable.

Not too many people have access to the earliest texts nor are they experts in ancient Hebrew. If translation was a straight-forward issue every bible would read exactly the same. Many of the footnotes in my bible read something like "or abcde" meaning there is ambiguity in the meaning of the word.

As in any other field, amateurs can make mistakes that are obvious to those with skills, in this case scholars. If you don't understand why this position is debatable you might consider the fact that others might have different, legitimate problems with what you write, just as you might have problems with what they write. This is, after all, a discussion forum.
 
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Anguspure

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Not too many people have access to the earliest texts nor are they experts in ancient Hebrew. If translation was a straight-forward issue every bible would read exactly the same. Many of the footnotes in my bible read something like "or abcde" meaning there is ambiguity in the meaning of the word.

As in any other field, amateurs can make mistakes that are obvious to those with skills, in this case scholars. If you don't understand why this position is debatable you might consider the fact that others might have different, legitimate problems with what you write, just as you might have problems with what they write. This is, after all, a discussion forum.
What I meant is that it amazes me that it is not considered a very basic tenet of the faith that we always investigate everything we are told to see if it is true, even if this involves a little bit of education and book learnin'.
This not because we are sceptical but because the way to know truth is to know it for yourself.
 
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What I meant is that it amazes me that it is not considered a very basic tenet of the faith that we always investigate everything we are told to see if it is true, even if this involves a little bit of education and book learnin'.
This not because we are sceptical but because the way to know truth is to know it for yourself.

Well, there goes many millennia of teaching throughout the entire world. Don't accept the teaching of anyone; they're all dishonest and manipulative. Right?
 
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Anguspure

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Well, there goes many millennia of teaching throughout the entire world. Don't accept the teaching of anyone; they're all dishonest and manipulative. Right?
They are human like the rest of us and it is well known that the more academic a person is the stronger the bias blindness tendency (this was confirmed in a recent study).

The Bereans were called noble for searching the scriptures to see if what the most highly qualified and respected man on the planet at the time, had to say was true. They were called noble by the same man.

In this respect that is a good enough guideline for me.

If a person wishes to be less noble then I guess that is for them.

But my advice would be to learn and become educated in the scripture as much as possible and not simply take truth on somebody else's say so.
 
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They are human like the rest of us and it is well known that the more academic a person is the stronger the bias blindness tendency (this was confirmed in a recent study).

The Bereans were called noble for searching the scriptures to see if what the most highly qualified and respected man on the planet at the time, had to say was true. They were called noble by the same man.

In this respect that is a good enough guideline for me.

If a person wishes to be less noble then I guess that is for them.

But my advice would be to learn and become educated in the scripture as much as possible and not simply take truth on somebody else's say so.

The translation committee of the NIV was composed of a broad spectrum of people. One of the purposes for this spectrum was to eliminate bias blindness. The people who did the work were very, very careful in their methodology, which is a world apart from simply taking truth on somebody else's say so.

You can go on and on about the Bereans who studied the scriptures to confirm in them what they had heard, but that is not what we're talking about.

If you want to denigrate the work of highly respected scholars and believe only what your own mind tells you, there is nothing more to discuss.
 
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