The next phase in the Liturgy Wars?

[Akita Suggagaki]

No, we're not an audience. But sometimes it feels like it. We are supposed to all be directing our prayers in the same metaphorical direction to the Father, with the priest who represents the Son. Turning the priest around does mess with that.

Did it mess with it at the last Supper also?

 

[Wolseley]

"Itane! Totus sum excussus!" which means "Really! I'm all shook up!"

"Scis quod dicunt: si fractum non sit, noli id reficere."
"You know what they say: If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

[chevyontheriver]

Did it mess with it at the last Supper also?

Was Leonardo Da Vinci accurate in his painting of the Last Supper? How would we know? Who faced which way? Was the table round or rectangular? In Leonardo's version they were all facing the same way at a rectangular table.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

t any rate, the

Was Leonardo Da Vinci accurate in his painting of the Last Supper? How would we know? Who faced which way? Was the table round or rectangular? In Leonardo's version they were all facing the same way at a rectangular table.

"At that time in Palestine, food was placed on low tables and guests ate in reclining position on floor cushions and carpets," Urciuoli said.

Seems awkward to me,

Jesus’ Last Supper Menu Revealed in Archaeology Study

What did Jesus and his apostles eat during the Last Supper? New research reveals the likely menu.

www.livescience.com

 

[fide]

I knew a parish that never gave up the Latin language but did it in the novus ordo. Priest facing ad orientem, the Eucharist at the communion rail kneeling. It was a thriving parish, a bastion of orthodoxy, and people came for miles and miles.

That said, I would be happy with and English language traditional mass. The old mass cleanly translated. The old collects and all of that, but in English. We don't exactly have that right now except sort of with the Anglican Ordinariate liturgy.

Does that parish still offer the NO in Latin? Is it in the US?

I would be happier with the TLM in English than not at all, if the priest would not face the people.

 

[Bob Crowley]

"Scis quod dicunt: si fractum non sit, noli id reficere."
"You know what they say: If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

In my case that's because "non potes docere veterem canem novas sycophantias" - "You can't teach an old dog new tricks".

 

[Solo81]

Can someone explain to me why I should care that we can't have a Mass is a dead language ?

-And-

Just as a counterpoint and to help me understand - What if someone wanted to have Mass in, say, Klingon (A completely made up language for a race of people that only exists in fiction), would that be ok ?

You can attend Mass anywhere in the World and follow what is being said, if the same language is being used.
Same goes for official Church business: if everyone is communicating through the same language, misunderstandings are less likely to occur.

Latin was maybe retained because it was the human language of the Empire. To use Klingon might be sacreligious or profane: not treating God with the respect He deserves. Something real happens at Mass, not something to be taken lightly.

 

[RileyG]

See this is the kind of question that get me into trouble because people think I'm being sarcastic or something.

But....

Can someone explain to me why I should care that we can't have a Mass is a dead language ?

-And-

Just as a counterpoint and to help me understand - What if someone wanted to have Mass in, say, Klingon (A completely made up language for a race of people that only exists in fiction), would that be ok ?

When the Mass was changed in the late 60s/early 1970s, it wasn't only the language that was changed. Many changes occurred such as:

-no more prayers at the foot of the altar
- last gospel no longer proclaimed
- prayers after Mass (3 Hail Marys, Hail Holy Queen, St. Michael Prayer, Sacred Heart prayer, prayer for the conversion of Russia) no longer offered
- Mass has the priest now facing the people instead of the priest facing the altar
- People now stand at Holy Communion and majority receive on hand instead of kneeling at the altar rail and on the tongue
- altar girls were acceptable sometime around 1992-1994 depending on diocese (my diocese does NOT have altar girls)

Essentially, when ANY Catholic attended the Mass pre-Vatican II, it was always the same. It was truly Catholic- universal.

Now, since Vatican II, we see many variations such as guitar masses, polka masses, even some forms of abuse.

I DO LIKE how Vatican II introduced the readings in English and the Old Testament. I definitely appreciate that.

I DO attend the "New Mass" 99% of the time and feel immensely nourished by it.

That said, I still love the TLM, and attended around five times. There's a sense of mystery and mysticism that the new mass doesn't offer.

They're BOTH lovely IMO.

I also love the Eastern rites.

 

[RileyG]

Did it mess with it at the last Supper also?

In my diocese, at the Cathedral at least, during the season of Lent and Advent, the priest will actually offer Mass (yes, the "new mass") facing the altar. I think there are more churches in my city that have the priest facing the altar instead the people. It depends on how conservative the diocese is.

My particular parish always has the priest facing the people.

 

[chevyontheriver]

When the Mass was changed in the late 60s/early 1970s, it wasn't only the language that was changed. Many changes occurred such as:

-no more prayers at the foot of the altar
- last gospel no longer proclaimed
- prayers after Mass (3 Hail Marys, Hail Holy Queen, St. Michael Prayer, Sacred Heart prayer, prayer for the conversion of Russia) no longer offered
- Mass has the priest now facing the people instead of the priest facing the altar
- People now stand at Holy Communion and majority receive on hand instead of kneeling at the altar rail and on the tongue
- altar girls were acceptable sometime around 1992-1994 depending on diocese (my diocese does NOT have altar girls)

Essentially, when ANY Catholic attended the Mass pre-Vatican II, it was always the same. It was truly Catholic- universal.

Now, since Vatican II, we see many variations such as guitar masses, polka masses, even some forms of abuse.

I DO LIKE how Vatican II introduced the readings in English and the Old Testament. I definitely appreciate that.

I DO attend the "New Mass" 99% of the time and feel immensely nourished by it.

That said, I still love the TLM, and attended around five times. There's a sense of mystery and mysticism that the new mass doesn't offer.

They're BOTH lovely IMO.

I also love the Eastern rites.

There is the 1970 novus ordo but before that was the 1965 interim mass. That was a simple translation of the 1962 TLM. Even archbishop Lefebvre approved of that. But it was suppressed when the 1970 version came out.

 

[chevyontheriver]

In my diocese, at the Cathedral at least, during the season of Lent and Advent, the priest will actually offer Mass (yes, the "new mass") facing the altar. I think there are more churches in my city that have the priest facing the altar instead the people. It depends on how conservative the diocese

Depending on who archbishop Lucas is replaced with you may have lots of people ‘swimming the Platte’ to experience such sanity.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Does that parish still offer the NO in Latin? Is it in the US?

St. Agnes in St. Paul MN. I don’t know their current practice because I moved four years ago.

I would be happier with the TLM in English than not at all, if the priest would not face the people.

THAT might be the best possible outcome, but is it even possible? Professor Grillo has come down hard against anything traditional, and within a month it’s quite possible that the TLM will be totally banned. Grillo was supposedly the shadow author of Traditiones custodes. So he may have already shadow authored the next step in jailing the tradition. What does the FSSP do then?

 

[fide]

St. Agnes in St. Paul MN. I don’t know their current practice because I moved four years ago.

THAT might be the best possible outcome, but is it even possible? Professor Grillo has come down hard against anything traditional, and within a month it’s quite possible that the TLM will be totally banned. Grillo was supposedly the shadow author of Traditiones custodes. So he may have already shadow authored the next step in jailing the tradition. What does the FSSP do then?

It may be that the last, the final schism will come, when the highest form of true worship of God known to man - the TLM - will be made to cease.
When the False Prophet "shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator." (Dan 9:27) At that time, decision will be forced upon us all who remain: who will remain where Jesus remains?

 

[Wolseley]

In my case that's because "non potes docere veterem canem novas sycophantias" - "You can't teach an old dog new tricks".

Well then, in urceo numerum Sanguineorum misceamus, alteram locustam marinam in caminello. "Let's mix up a pitcher of Bloody Marys and put another shrimp on the barbie!"

 

[RileyG]

Depending on who archbishop Lucas is replaced with you may have lots of people ‘swimming the Platte’ to experience such sanity.

God bless the Archdiocese of Omaha and bless them with many holy vocations. Amen.

 

[RileyG]

There is the 1970 novus ordo but before that was the 1965 interim mass. That was a simple translation of the 1962 TLM. Even archbishop Lefebvre approved of that. But it was suppressed when the 1970 version came out.

Ohhh thanks for the info! How was it different?

 

[Gnarwhal]

God bless the Archdiocese of Omaha and bless them with many holy vocations. Amen.

I drove through Omaha when I moved back out to CA last year and I could kinda tell it was a special place for Catholics, I remember driving by the Holy Family Shrine on I80 and thinking you just don't see that sorta thing very often.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Ohhh thanks for the info! How was it different?

The 1965 version was an OK but not great direct translation of the TLM. The 1970 version was a total rewrite of the mass, not a mere translation. Really they are quite different.

I would like for there to be a high quality retranslating of the 1962 mass with only some tiny other changes. But I don’t see that as possible right now because of the current office holders in the Vatican.

 

[RileyG]

The 1965 version was an OK but not great direct translation of the TLM. The 1970 version was a total rewrite of the mass, not a mere translation. Really they are quite different.

I would like for there to be a high quality retranslating of the 1962 mass with only some tiny other changes. But I don’t see that as possible right now because of the current office holders in the Vatican.

I wasn’t aware of that. Thanks!

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

There's a sense of mystery and mysticism that the new mass doesn't offer

In what way, other than an ancient language few people really understand and we cant see what the priest is doing.?
Both Masses have silence and reverence.