The Neo-gnostics at Redding Church that deny the deity of Christ

[simonthezealot]

From Bill Johnson's book, it shows he denies that Christ was 100% God and 100% while on earth...

"Jesus could not heal the sick. Neither could He deliver the tormented from demons or raise the dead. To believe otherwise is to ignore what Jesus said about Himself, and more importantly, to miss the purpose of His self-imposed restriction to live as a man.

Jesus Christ said of Himself, 'The Son can do nothing.' In the Greek language the word nothing has a unique meaning--it means NOTHING, just like it does in English! He had no supernatural capabilities whatsoever! While He is 100 percent God, He chose to live with the same limitations that man would face once he was redeemed.​

 

[simonthezealot]

And the very next paragraph he states...
“He performed miracles, signs, and wonders as a man in a right relationship with God"...Not as God

 

[Steeno7]

Mostly true. He goes too far when he says "Jesus had no supernatural capabilities at all". That He, as God, had chosen to function only as a real man, does not mean that He was ever less than fully God including all of Gods capabilities.

 

[simonthezealot]

Mostly true. He goes too far when he says "Jesus had no supernatural capabilities at all". That He, as God, had chosen to function only as a real man, does not mean that He was ever less than fully God including all of Gods capabilities.

He claims the Lord laid aside all Godly abilities while on earth, while Christ was not omni-present He was indeed omniscient.

 

[Steeno7]

He claims the Lord laid aside all Godly abilities while on earth, while Christ was not omni-present He was indeed omniscient.

Is man omniscient?

 

[simonthezealot]

Context to the "Son can do nothing"...
"But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.

For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will."

 

[simonthezealot]

Is man omniscient?

No but God in Christ is and always was and will be..

He granted salvation to many while on earth, is that something man can do?

 

[simonthezealot]

So those who believe this line of thought think Christs' diety went away while on earth incarnate in flesh?

 

[Messy]

And the very next paragraph he states...
“He performed miracles, signs, and wonders as a man in a right relationship with God"...Not as God

Yeah I saw that. That's what the masons teach too. His friend Rick Joyner was a Knight of Malta. Bill Johnson associates with the ministry of john crowder/ new mystics - the wives of Bill johnson & john crowder have ministered together so this is not just a one off acquaintance.

 

[sunlover1]

No but God in Christ is and always was and will be..

He granted salvation to many while on earth, is that something man can do?

This is a great question because of what God said here:

Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that believeth on me,
the works that I do shall he do also;
and greater works than these shall he do;
because I go unto my Father.

We're co laborers/with and embassadors/for
and carriers/of..... God.
What "works that He does" was He speaking of?

 

[simonthezealot]

<< Staff Edit >>

No At His Incarnation, Jesus took on a second, human nature in addition to His divine nature.
In this human nature is where the temptations on Him were, Colossians says in Him all things are held together, without His divinity the world would cease to exist.

 

[simonthezealot]

Right, Johnson says He laid down His divinity, but the reality is He added flesh to His divinity..

 

[simonthezealot]

<< Staff Edit >>

Really when He said, "Lazarus come forth" You don't think this was a show of His divinity? These signs were so that the Jews and all KNEW He was the Messiah..

 

[simonthezealot]

<< Staff Edit >>

Yes.
He is and always has and always will be 100% God and since the incarnation 100% man as well, while incarnate there were things that the doctrine of the incarnation prevented Him from doing such as His omnipresence but He nonetheless was a DIVINE sacrifice, not that of just man or His atonement would not have the affect scripture speaks of.

 

[Steeno7]

Really when He said, "Lazarus come forth" You don't think this was a show of His divinity? These signs were so that the Jews and all KNEW He was the Messiah..

What did Jesus Himself say about the things He did?

"the Son can do nothing of Himself" -John 5:19

"the Father abiding in Me does His works" -John 14:10

 

[simonthezealot]

What did Jesus Himself say about the things He did?

"the Son can do nothing of Himself" -John 5:19

Context...

"But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.

For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will."

 

[Nanopants]

So those who believe this line of thought think Christs' diety went away while on earth incarnate in flesh?

It's similar to my own belief. No I don't think His deity went away.

If you had access to His human body, and put it under a microscope to examine what exactly He was, as disrespectful as that would be but for argument's sake, I do not think you would find anything but a normal human body.

Does that mean I believe He was not God? No. If He was of the same humanity as us, then why wouldn't the same mechanics or principles which apply to our redemption also apply to Him? I think it's far more likely that as a man He simply had no doubt, and was One with the Father through perfect faith, in a very similar sense as we receive God's own righteousness through faith.

Does that mean I believe He became God? No. I think it's impossible for man, by his own effort or by some special ability to become God.

So what do I think actually happened? I think God Almighty was in Christ Jesus through faith, because the providence and presence of God Almighty, though He is not visible, was upon Jesus the man, and so God took on human flesh, so that to see Jesus is to see God.

I don't think what Bill Johnson is saying is much different than that. It was not the humanity of Jesus Christ that was performing the miracles, as He said, the Father does the works.

 

[simonthezealot]

This is the very doctrine of the incarnation, that the eternal Son of God, without ceasing to be God, took on a fully human nature.

 

[simonthezealot]

Hypostatic union should be studied by the followers of Johnson and his ilk..

 

[sunlover1]

This is the very doctrine of the incarnation, that the eternal Son of God, without ceasing to be God, took on a fully human nature.

I don't see anyone disagreeing with this..