The Work of the Spirit Before Christ and the Law

[Dima 26]

I'd like to here pose the following question for discussion: to what extend the Spirit of God dwelled, or at least worked, in men prior to the Spirit of Truth being sent by the promise of Christ to the believers, but primarily to the holy men of God that lived even before the law, such as Enoch, Noah, Job (who must likely lived prior to the giving of the law, besides not being part of Israel anyway), and the Patriarchs. John once plainly inputted in His gospel account how during one of the feast days when Jesus spoke with the Jews of the Holy Spirit: that He (the Spirit) was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified; thus giving rise to the question of the extend of the work of the Spirit of God on His servants throughout ages past.

We do know, however, of clear examples of people under the old covenant partaking of His Spirit in one way or another -- if not in a more familiar sense to us -- such as Moses -- as seen from His desire for the Lord to put His Spirit on all His people and that they all may be prophets, also with David -- seen by when he entreated the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit away, and with Saul -- the same Spirit that left him and came upon David, and other instances where the Spirit came upon certain man under certain circumstances. Besides this, it was clear that, although not coming upon all personally, yet He did abide among them collectively, as Isaiah spoke of how the Israelites rebelled and vexed His Holy Spirit that he put within him (Israel). Now although none of this may show that the Spirit dwelled eternally and personally on all His people, the point of this, however, was to show that the work of the Spirit was undeniable back under the old covenant, so as to help set the stage for the main question.

Now before I get there, I must clarify here that by no means am I am trying to imply that the measure of God’s gift under the Christian dispensation hasn’t been poured out more abundantly through Christ with regard to the Holy Spirit. For even the disciples -- who being of the number of those that waited on the Messiah and the kingdom of God and so should of been partakers of the same work of the Spirit as all the godly did under the old covenant -- were not able to receive some of the most important things of the gospel, such as the resurrection of Christ and the nature of His kingdom to come. This is seen plainly when Christ told them that He still had much to tell them but they were not able to bear it now, but once the Spirit of Truth would come, He would guide them unto all truth and bring to remembrance all the things He told them. Therefore to receive the culminating work of God in Christ and His doctrine -- to understand the scriptures that witnessed these things, to see His kingdom that is not of this world, and to perceive the refining work of Christ in purifying His people, and the things to come, as a quick overview, all this being poured out on all flesh -- even on him that is least in the kingdom of heaven, and the distribution of gifts unto all to the furtherance of the kingdom of Him that led captivity captive; this gift of the Spirit given freely in full measure, was indeed only after the glorification of Jesus Christ unto those that believed.

But mine main question here concerns the time before the old covenant (though we may still include here the Patriarchs), that is, by what wisdom and strength were they able to walk with the Lord and so receive the testimony of righteousness. For if Enoch prophesied against the ungodly and spoke of the judgement of God, Noah in like manner persevered in righteousness in the face of all corruption and also preached through the ark, and of Job it's clear enough from his own words of what level of integrity he was able to achieve, so that I again ask: was this all of themselves that they were able to choose good over evil -- so that the fallen state of man after Adam's sin was not a hindrance unto them to please God without the aid of the Spirit of God, as through understanding and wisdom? If not, then why do we now need the Spirit's aid in being able to understand all the ways of righteousness to work good and overcome evil, and they on the contrary did not, but through the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were able to do good? Granted, I know that their righteousness was short of His glory and that they needed a Redeemer -- even the best of man for that manner; but what I'm trying to get at here is how were they able to show the work of the law written on their hearts and follow after the spirit of the law without the aid of Him through Who's Spirit we now do what they did without Him, if you indeed think they did it without Him?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'd like to here pose the following question for discussion: to what extend the Spirit of God dwelled, or at least worked, in men prior to the Spirit of Truth being sent by the promise of Christ to the believers, but primarily to the holy men of God that lived even before the law, such as Enoch, Noah, Job (who must likely lived prior to the giving of the law, besides not being part of Israel anyway), and the Patriarchs. John once plainly inputted in His gospel account how during one of the feast days when Jesus spoke with the Jews of the Holy Spirit: that He (the Spirit) was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified; thus giving rise to the question of the extend of the work of the Spirit of God on His servants throughout ages past.

We do know, however, of clear examples of people under the old covenant partaking of His Spirit in one way or another -- if not in a more familiar sense to us -- such as Moses -- as seen from His desire for the Lord to put His Spirit on all His people and that they all may be prophets, also with David -- seen by when he entreated the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit away, and with Saul -- the same Spirit that left him and came upon David, and other instances where the Spirit came upon certain man under certain circumstances. Besides this, it was clear that, although not coming upon all personally, yet He did abide among them collectively, as Isaiah spoke of how the Israelites rebelled and vexed His Holy Spirit that he put within him (Israel). Now although none of this may show that the Spirit dwelled eternally and personally on all His people, the point of this, however, was to show that the work of the Spirit was undeniable back under the old covenant, so as to help set the stage for the main question.

Now before I get there, I must clarify here that by no means am I am trying to imply that the measure of God’s gift under the Christian dispensation hasn’t been poured out more abundantly through Christ with regard to the Holy Spirit. For even the disciples -- who being of the number of those that waited on the Messiah and the kingdom of God and so should of been partakers of the same work of the Spirit as all the godly did under the old covenant -- were not able to receive some of the most important things of the gospel, such as the resurrection of Christ and the nature of His kingdom to come. This is seen plainly when Christ told them that He still had much to tell them but they were not able to bear it now, but once the Spirit of Truth would come, He would guide them unto all truth and bring to remembrance all the things He told them. Therefore to receive the culminating work of God in Christ and His doctrine -- to understand the scriptures that witnessed these things, to see His kingdom that is not of this world, and to perceive the refining work of Christ in purifying His people, and the things to come, as a quick overview, all this being poured out on all flesh -- even on him that is least in the kingdom of heaven, and the distribution of gifts unto all to the furtherance of the kingdom of Him that led captivity captive; this gift of the Spirit given freely in full measure, was indeed only after the glorification of Jesus Christ unto those that believed.

But mine main question here concerns the time before the old covenant (though we may still include here the Patriarchs), that is, by what wisdom and strength were they able to walk with the Lord and so receive the testimony of righteousness. For if Enoch prophesied against the ungodly and spoke of the judgement of God, Noah in like manner persevered in righteousness in the face of all corruption and also preached through the ark, and of Job it's clear enough from his own words of what level of integrity he was able to achieve, so that I again ask: was this all of themselves that they were able to choose good over evil -- so that the fallen state of man after Adam's sin was not a hindrance unto them to please God without the aid of the Spirit of God, as through understanding and wisdom? If not, then why do we now need the Spirit's aid in being able to understand all the ways of righteousness to work good and overcome evil, and they on the contrary did not, but through the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were able to do good? Granted, I know that their righteousness was short of His glory and that they needed a Redeemer -- even the best of man for that manner; but what I'm trying to get at here is how were they able to show the work of the law written on their hearts and follow after the spirit of the law without the aid of Him through Who's Spirit we now do what they did without Him, if you indeed think they did it without Him?

Welcome to CF!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'm trying to get at here is how were they able to show the work of the law written on their hearts and follow after the spirit of the law without the aid of Him through Who's Spirit we now do what they did without Him, if you indeed think they did it without Him?

Actually, no one showed the work of the law nor was the law written in their hearts. It was beyond the law. The law of love. Jesus Christ of Nazareth came/ comes for those who loved / love Him , not the law. David loved the Lord and broke the law yet He was found righteous through his love. Read His lamentations in Psalms.
Blessings.

 

[HTacianas]

I'd like to here pose the following question for discussion: to what extend the Spirit of God dwelled, or at least worked, in men prior to the Spirit of Truth being sent by the promise of Christ to the believers, but primarily to the holy men of God that lived even before the law, such as Enoch, Noah, Job (who must likely lived prior to the giving of the law, besides not being part of Israel anyway), and the Patriarchs. John once plainly inputted in His gospel account how during one of the feast days when Jesus spoke with the Jews of the Holy Spirit: that He (the Spirit) was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified; thus giving rise to the question of the extend of the work of the Spirit of God on His servants throughout ages past.

We do know, however, of clear examples of people under the old covenant partaking of His Spirit in one way or another -- if not in a more familiar sense to us -- such as Moses -- as seen from His desire for the Lord to put His Spirit on all His people and that they all may be prophets, also with David -- seen by when he entreated the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit away, and with Saul -- the same Spirit that left him and came upon David, and other instances where the Spirit came upon certain man under certain circumstances. Besides this, it was clear that, although not coming upon all personally, yet He did abide among them collectively, as Isaiah spoke of how the Israelites rebelled and vexed His Holy Spirit that he put within him (Israel). Now although none of this may show that the Spirit dwelled eternally and personally on all His people, the point of this, however, was to show that the work of the Spirit was undeniable back under the old covenant, so as to help set the stage for the main question.

Now before I get there, I must clarify here that by no means am I am trying to imply that the measure of God’s gift under the Christian dispensation hasn’t been poured out more abundantly through Christ with regard to the Holy Spirit. For even the disciples -- who being of the number of those that waited on the Messiah and the kingdom of God and so should of been partakers of the same work of the Spirit as all the godly did under the old covenant -- were not able to receive some of the most important things of the gospel, such as the resurrection of Christ and the nature of His kingdom to come. This is seen plainly when Christ told them that He still had much to tell them but they were not able to bear it now, but once the Spirit of Truth would come, He would guide them unto all truth and bring to remembrance all the things He told them. Therefore to receive the culminating work of God in Christ and His doctrine -- to understand the scriptures that witnessed these things, to see His kingdom that is not of this world, and to perceive the refining work of Christ in purifying His people, and the things to come, as a quick overview, all this being poured out on all flesh -- even on him that is least in the kingdom of heaven, and the distribution of gifts unto all to the furtherance of the kingdom of Him that led captivity captive; this gift of the Spirit given freely in full measure, was indeed only after the glorification of Jesus Christ unto those that believed.

But mine main question here concerns the time before the old covenant (though we may still include here the Patriarchs), that is, by what wisdom and strength were they able to walk with the Lord and so receive the testimony of righteousness. For if Enoch prophesied against the ungodly and spoke of the judgement of God, Noah in like manner persevered in righteousness in the face of all corruption and also preached through the ark, and of Job it's clear enough from his own words of what level of integrity he was able to achieve, so that I again ask: was this all of themselves that they were able to choose good over evil -- so that the fallen state of man after Adam's sin was not a hindrance unto them to please God without the aid of the Spirit of God, as through understanding and wisdom? If not, then why do we now need the Spirit's aid in being able to understand all the ways of righteousness to work good and overcome evil, and they on the contrary did not, but through the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were able to do good? Granted, I know that their righteousness was short of His glory and that they needed a Redeemer -- even the best of man for that manner; but what I'm trying to get at here is how were they able to show the work of the law written on their hearts and follow after the spirit of the law without the aid of Him through Who's Spirit we now do what they did without Him, if you indeed think they did it without Him?

If I understand your question, that being how did the Spirit work on those prior to Christianity, you have to look to Judaism for the answer. In Judaism, the Shekinah -the Holy Spirit- rests on the righteous. It's much the same as Christianity. When a person took on the law, meaning to agree to obey the commandments of God, he received "help from heaven" in the form of the Shekinah.

Jesus said at John 3:8, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." The meaning is that no one could tell who exactly had been born of the Spirit. The old testament prophets received the spirit of prophecy from the Spirit to enable them to prophesy. With the advent of Christianity the promise of Joel 2:28 was fulfilled, "And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh...". The Spirit was poured out on those who accepted the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[Dima 26]

Welcome to CF!

Thank you for the greeting.

Actually, no one showed the work of the law nor was the law written in their hearts. It was beyond the law. The law of love. Jesus Christ of Nazareth came/ comes for those who loved / love Him , not the law. David loved the Lord and broke the law yet He was found righteous through his love. Read His lamentations in Psalms.

I never denied that the righteous of all ages had a love for God and for their brethren/neighbors; but to say that no one showed the work of the law written in their hearts, I would contend, is just inaccurate. Even if you take the commandment of love, the Apostle Paul himself showed that as love does no harm to one's neighbor, it therefore fulfills the law, that is primarily in the context of the ten commandments. Therefore I conclude that the law of love is in agreement to the law of God. Now if you mean that love was the driving factor for them in all their works (as Paul showed that without it we are nothing, though we have have many other gifts and good works), than again, I don't disagree; although its questionable how much attention they may have giving to this particular concept, since it doesn't appeared to be much emphasized before the old covenant -- for lets not forget that the commandment to love the Lord with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves is in the law of Moses after all.

Now because the law testifies of righteousness, judgment, truth, mercy, holiness, it therefore cannot be thought that those that received the testimony of righteousness before the law could be found in total disagreement to the law when it was given, meaning the moral part of it. Surely they didn't live up to all its standards, as no one can, but that does not mean that they were not followers of good and truth. This is called keeping the righteousness of the law, which is also similar also the the concept of the spirit of the law over the letter. For the law was made not for a righteous man as Paul said elsewhere to Timothy, but to the lawless and disobedient, etc. N

 

[Dima 26]

Sorry, I accidently posted before I got to finish. Below is the rest of it:

Now to give the full context of the idea of the law being written on ones heart: "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"; so that we can clearly see that "to do by nature the things contained in the law" is to actually be in agreement to the law, and not a random righteousness of men that does not at all agree with one another, neither trace their source to the Righteous Lord, Who Himself changes not.

 

[honey badger]

the law/commandment was given/spoken to Adam ... the ten commandments is mans perception of it ...

 

[Dima 26]

If I understand your question, that being how did the Spirit work on those prior to Christianity, you have to look to Judaism for the answer. In Judaism, the Shekinah -the Holy Spirit- rests on the righteous. It's much the same as Christianity. When a person took on the law, meaning to agree to obey the commandments of God, he received "help from heaven" in the form of the Shekinah.

Jesus said at John 3:8, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." The meaning is that no one could tell who exactly had been born of the Spirit. The old testament prophets received the spirit of prophecy from the Spirit to enable them to prophesy. With the advent of Christianity the promise of Joel 2:28 was fulfilled, "And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh...". The Spirit was poured out on those who accepted the sacrifice of Christ.

But what about time before the giving of the law, such as those examples of the men of God that I gave: Enoch, Noah, and Job? Did they have the aid of the Spirit to be able to work righteousness and overcome evil, such as through understanding and wisdom? I do agree that under the old covenant -- meaning after the giving of the law -- the covenant made with Israel, as I have also shown, the work of the Spirit was undeniable.

 

[HTacianas]

But what about time before the giving of the law, such as those examples of the men of God that I gave: Enoch, Noah, and Job? Did they have the aid of the Spirit to be able to work righteousness and overcome evil, such as through understanding and wisdom? I do agree that under the old covenant -- meaning after the giving of the law -- the covenant made with Israel, as I have also shown, the work of the Spirit was undeniable.

It may well be that at one time the Spirit resided with all men, but through sin, especially murder and idolatry, the Spirit left them. No one really knows for certain. At Psalms 51:11 David prays that the Holy Spirit not be taken away from him because of his sin, showing that the Spirit can in fact leave a person. Enoch, Noah, and Job may have possessed the Holy Spirit, and probably did.

 

[Soyeong]

I'd like to here pose the following question for discussion: to what extend the Spirit of God dwelled, or at least worked, in men prior to the Spirit of Truth being sent by the promise of Christ to the believers, but primarily to the holy men of God that lived even before the law, such as Enoch, Noah, Job (who must likely lived prior to the giving of the law, besides not being part of Israel anyway), and the Patriarchs. John once plainly inputted in His gospel account how during one of the feast days when Jesus spoke with the Jews of the Holy Spirit: that He (the Spirit) was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified; thus giving rise to the question of the extend of the work of the Spirit of God on His servants throughout ages past.

We do know, however, of clear examples of people under the old covenant partaking of His Spirit in one way or another -- if not in a more familiar sense to us -- such as Moses -- as seen from His desire for the Lord to put His Spirit on all His people and that they all may be prophets, also with David -- seen by when he entreated the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit away, and with Saul -- the same Spirit that left him and came upon David, and other instances where the Spirit came upon certain man under certain circumstances. Besides this, it was clear that, although not coming upon all personally, yet He did abide among them collectively, as Isaiah spoke of how the Israelites rebelled and vexed His Holy Spirit that he put within him (Israel). Now although none of this may show that the Spirit dwelled eternally and personally on all His people, the point of this, however, was to show that the work of the Spirit was undeniable back under the old covenant, so as to help set the stage for the main question.

Now before I get there, I must clarify here that by no means am I am trying to imply that the measure of God’s gift under the Christian dispensation hasn’t been poured out more abundantly through Christ with regard to the Holy Spirit. For even the disciples -- who being of the number of those that waited on the Messiah and the kingdom of God and so should of been partakers of the same work of the Spirit as all the godly did under the old covenant -- were not able to receive some of the most important things of the gospel, such as the resurrection of Christ and the nature of His kingdom to come. This is seen plainly when Christ told them that He still had much to tell them but they were not able to bear it now, but once the Spirit of Truth would come, He would guide them unto all truth and bring to remembrance all the things He told them. Therefore to receive the culminating work of God in Christ and His doctrine -- to understand the scriptures that witnessed these things, to see His kingdom that is not of this world, and to perceive the refining work of Christ in purifying His people, and the things to come, as a quick overview, all this being poured out on all flesh -- even on him that is least in the kingdom of heaven, and the distribution of gifts unto all to the furtherance of the kingdom of Him that led captivity captive; this gift of the Spirit given freely in full measure, was indeed only after the glorification of Jesus Christ unto those that believed.

But mine main question here concerns the time before the old covenant (though we may still include here the Patriarchs), that is, by what wisdom and strength were they able to walk with the Lord and so receive the testimony of righteousness. For if Enoch prophesied against the ungodly and spoke of the judgement of God, Noah in like manner persevered in righteousness in the face of all corruption and also preached through the ark, and of Job it's clear enough from his own words of what level of integrity he was able to achieve, so that I again ask: was this all of themselves that they were able to choose good over evil -- so that the fallen state of man after Adam's sin was not a hindrance unto them to please God without the aid of the Spirit of God, as through understanding and wisdom? If not, then why do we now need the Spirit's aid in being able to understand all the ways of righteousness to work good and overcome evil, and they on the contrary did not, but through the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were able to do good? Granted, I know that their righteousness was short of His glory and that they needed a Redeemer -- even the best of man for that manner; but what I'm trying to get at here is how were they able to show the work of the law written on their hearts and follow after the spirit of the law without the aid of Him through Who's Spirit we now do what they did without Him, if you indeed think they did it without Him?

The Spirit is essentially the nature of God and the fruits of the Spirit are invisible aspects of His nature, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control, and so forth. God's law is His instructions for how to express, know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about aspects of His nature, and if these invisible aspects of God's nature were personified into a flesh that we can see, then the Son would be the living embodiment of them, which is why he set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, which is why he is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), and why he is the radiance of God's glory and exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In other words, the Son is who we see when we look at the Father and he put the nature of who the Father is on display by expressing the fruits of the Spirit in sinless obedience to God's law.

In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law, and in Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of God's law. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to His law. I'm Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed a works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 2:25-29, they way to see that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey God's law.

There are many examples of God's laws being given prior to Sinai. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. According to Genesis 18:19, God's way is the way to know Him through testify about aspects of His nature such as righteousness and justice, in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, knowing God is eternal life. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law, and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith, and the same goes for Genesis 5:24, where Enoch must have been taught laws for how to walk in God's way in order to walk with Him. In Genesis 4:7, God told Cain that sin was crouching at the door and he must master it, which implies that he already knew what sin is and must have already been given laws in that regard. In Genesis 26:4-5, Abraham heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, which was all in accordance with the promise and the Gospel of the Kingdom that was made known in advance to Him (Galatians 3:8). God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of His righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so they have always existed, but have not always been widely known by man.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Sorry, I accidently posted before I got to finish. Below is the rest of it:

Now to give the full context of the idea of the law being written on ones heart: "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"; so that we can clearly see that "to do by nature the things contained in the law" is to actually be in agreement to the law, and not a random righteousness of men that does not at all agree with one another, neither trace their source to the Righteous Lord, Who Himself changes not.

Just want to make sure you realize that, there were 613 laws given to Israel, not just the 10. Also, if one person did keep the entire law, who was it and where is it recorded in scripture? Paul was adamant that no one keeps the law. The law was given to show us our sinfulness and our need for a Savior.

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)

“No one is righteous, not even one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” (Romans 3:10-12)

“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.” (Romans 3:20)

This is why Jesus came, to fulfill the law on our behalf. He lived a perfect life and died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. When we put our faith in Jesus, we are declared righteous by God, not because of our own works, but because of what Jesus has done for us.
Blessings.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

But what about time before the giving of the law, such as those examples of the men of God that I gave: Enoch, Noah, and Job? Did they have the aid of the Spirit to be able to work righteousness and overcome evil, such as through understanding and wisdom? I do agree that under the old covenant -- meaning after the giving of the law -- the covenant made with Israel, as I have also shown, the work of the Spirit was undeniable.

They loved the Lord . Blessings.

Edit: Abraham loved the Lord more than he loved his son which was the kind of love God looked for when He tested Abraham.

 

[bling]

I'd like to here pose the following question for discussion: to what extend the Spirit of God dwelled, or at least worked, in men prior to the Spirit of Truth being sent by the promise of Christ to the believers, but primarily to the holy men of God that lived even before the law, such as Enoch, Noah, Job (who must likely lived prior to the giving of the law, besides not being part of Israel anyway), and the Patriarchs. John once plainly inputted in His gospel account how during one of the feast days when Jesus spoke with the Jews of the Holy Spirit: that He (the Spirit) was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified; thus giving rise to the question of the extend of the work of the Spirit of God on His servants throughout ages past.

We do know, however, of clear examples of people under the old covenant partaking of His Spirit in one way or another -- if not in a more familiar sense to us -- such as Moses -- as seen from His desire for the Lord to put His Spirit on all His people and that they all may be prophets, also with David -- seen by when he entreated the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit away, and with Saul -- the same Spirit that left him and came upon David, and other instances where the Spirit came upon certain man under certain circumstances. Besides this, it was clear that, although not coming upon all personally, yet He did abide among them collectively, as Isaiah spoke of how the Israelites rebelled and vexed His Holy Spirit that he put within him (Israel). Now although none of this may show that the Spirit dwelled eternally and personally on all His people, the point of this, however, was to show that the work of the Spirit was undeniable back under the old covenant, so as to help set the stage for the main question.

Now before I get there, I must clarify here that by no means am I am trying to imply that the measure of God’s gift under the Christian dispensation hasn’t been poured out more abundantly through Christ with regard to the Holy Spirit. For even the disciples -- who being of the number of those that waited on the Messiah and the kingdom of God and so should of been partakers of the same work of the Spirit as all the godly did under the old covenant -- were not able to receive some of the most important things of the gospel, such as the resurrection of Christ and the nature of His kingdom to come. This is seen plainly when Christ told them that He still had much to tell them but they were not able to bear it now, but once the Spirit of Truth would come, He would guide them unto all truth and bring to remembrance all the things He told them. Therefore to receive the culminating work of God in Christ and His doctrine -- to understand the scriptures that witnessed these things, to see His kingdom that is not of this world, and to perceive the refining work of Christ in purifying His people, and the things to come, as a quick overview, all this being poured out on all flesh -- even on him that is least in the kingdom of heaven, and the distribution of gifts unto all to the furtherance of the kingdom of Him that led captivity captive; this gift of the Spirit given freely in full measure, was indeed only after the glorification of Jesus Christ unto those that believed.

But mine main question here concerns the time before the old covenant (though we may still include here the Patriarchs), that is, by what wisdom and strength were they able to walk with the Lord and so receive the testimony of righteousness. For if Enoch prophesied against the ungodly and spoke of the judgement of God, Noah in like manner persevered in righteousness in the face of all corruption and also preached through the ark, and of Job it's clear enough from his own words of what level of integrity he was able to achieve, so that I again ask: was this all of themselves that they were able to choose good over evil -- so that the fallen state of man after Adam's sin was not a hindrance unto them to please God without the aid of the Spirit of God, as through understanding and wisdom? If not, then why do we now need the Spirit's aid in being able to understand all the ways of righteousness to work good and overcome evil, and they on the contrary did not, but through the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were able to do good? Granted, I know that their righteousness was short of His glory and that they needed a Redeemer -- even the best of man for that manner; but what I'm trying to get at here is how were they able to show the work of the law written on their hearts and follow after the spirit of the law without the aid of Him through Who's Spirit we now do what they did without Him, if you indeed think they did it without Him?

The Spirit has come upon people in the past, but there seems to be a very special “portion” of the Spirit which came as an equal replacement for Christ on earth only after Pentecost. There is an indwelling portion only available to believers after Pentecost.

John 16: 7 “But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:”

Jesus promises this: “'I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.”

You assured us, “I will not leave you as orphans.” (John 14:18)



This brings up the question: How and why where there, different portions of the Spirit given at different times? You even want to go back to before Abraham.

There is this overriding sequence of events that have to be followed for Christ to come into the world. There are lessons to be learned from the past, starting with Adam and Eve as an example:

All people at some time in their life will ask: “How could a Loving God allow this tragedy to happen?” and the question is answered with the Adam and Eve story. We are really asking: “Why does God not put us all in a Garden with no death, not limited resources, no one hurting, a beautiful place, having time standing righteous and justified beside our Creator and also no tree of knowledge or satan running around. What we come to realize/learn, along with Adam and Eve, is the Garden was a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective. We learn similar lesson with the Law and/or the patriarchs. We are working our way up to Christianity and having the indwelling Holy Spirit.

How is this equal replacement, better than having a physical living Christ on earth?

What can we do now that is even greater than what Christ himself could do?

Why is this indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit so much greater than the portions of the Spirit previously available?

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

 

[eleos1954]

T

I'd like to here pose the following question for discussion: to what extend the Spirit of God dwelled, or at least worked, in men prior to the Spirit of Truth being sent by the promise of Christ to the believers, but primarily to the holy men of God that lived even before the law, such as Enoch, Noah, Job (who must likely lived prior to the giving of the law, besides not being part of Israel anyway), and the Patriarchs. John once plainly inputted in His gospel account how during one of the feast days when Jesus spoke with the Jews of the Holy Spirit: that He (the Spirit) was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified; thus giving rise to the question of the extend of the work of the Spirit of God on His servants throughout ages past.

We do know, however, of clear examples of people under the old covenant partaking of His Spirit in one way or another -- if not in a more familiar sense to us -- such as Moses -- as seen from His desire for the Lord to put His Spirit on all His people and that they all may be prophets, also with David -- seen by when he entreated the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit away, and with Saul -- the same Spirit that left him and came upon David, and other instances where the Spirit came upon certain man under certain circumstances. Besides this, it was clear that, although not coming upon all personally, yet He did abide among them collectively, as Isaiah spoke of how the Israelites rebelled and vexed His Holy Spirit that he put within him (Israel). Now although none of this may show that the Spirit dwelled eternally and personally on all His people, the point of this, however, was to show that the work of the Spirit was undeniable back under the old covenant, so as to help set the stage for the main question.

Now before I get there, I must clarify here that by no means am I am trying to imply that the measure of God’s gift under the Christian dispensation hasn’t been poured out more abundantly through Christ with regard to the Holy Spirit. For even the disciples -- who being of the number of those that waited on the Messiah and the kingdom of God and so should of been partakers of the same work of the Spirit as all the godly did under the old covenant -- were not able to receive some of the most important things of the gospel, such as the resurrection of Christ and the nature of His kingdom to come. This is seen plainly when Christ told them that He still had much to tell them but they were not able to bear it now, but once the Spirit of Truth would come, He would guide them unto all truth and bring to remembrance all the things He told them. Therefore to receive the culminating work of God in Christ and His doctrine -- to understand the scriptures that witnessed these things, to see His kingdom that is not of this world, and to perceive the refining work of Christ in purifying His people, and the things to come, as a quick overview, all this being poured out on all flesh -- even on him that is least in the kingdom of heaven, and the distribution of gifts unto all to the furtherance of the kingdom of Him that led captivity captive; this gift of the Spirit given freely in full measure, was indeed only after the glorification of Jesus Christ unto those that believed.

But mine main question here concerns the time before the old covenant (though we may still include here the Patriarchs), that is, by what wisdom and strength were they able to walk with the Lord and so receive the testimony of righteousness. For if Enoch prophesied against the ungodly and spoke of the judgement of God, Noah in like manner persevered in righteousness in the face of all corruption and also preached through the ark, and of Job it's clear enough from his own words of what level of integrity he was able to achieve, so that I again ask: was this all of themselves that they were able to choose good over evil -- so that the fallen state of man after Adam's sin was not a hindrance unto them to please God without the aid of the Spirit of God, as through understanding and wisdom? If not, then why do we now need the Spirit's aid in being able to understand all the ways of righteousness to work good and overcome evil, and they on the contrary did not, but through the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were able to do good? Granted, I know that their righteousness was short of His glory and that they needed a Redeemer -- even the best of man for that manner; but what I'm trying to get at here is how were they able to show the work of the law written on their hearts and follow after the spirit of the law without the aid of Him through Who's Spirit we now do what they did without Him, if you indeed think they did it without Him?

The Holy Spirit has always worked in the heart of mankind and will continue to do so until Jesus returns. In days of old, just as in today ... one is either willing to abide by the work of the Holy Spirit .... or not. If one abides they will have fruit.

 

[Dima 26]

It may well be that at one time the Spirit resided with all men, but through sin, especially murder and idolatry, the Spirit left them. No one really knows for certain. At Psalms 51:11 David prays that the Holy Spirit not be taken away from him because of his sin, showing that the Spirit can in fact leave a person. Enoch, Noah, and Job may have possessed the Holy Spirit, and probably did.

Sure, the Spirit can forsake a person if they forsake the Lord -- as in turning unto grave sin, iniquity, and unrighteousness -- basically that which is called apostasy, which the prophet Ezekiel summarizes well in ch. 18. I think we also agree -- as must others here seem to also -- that all the righteous -- even before the law as Enoch, Noah, and Job -- must have had the aide of the Spirit in guiding them unto truth and righteousness. I believe this was primarily through understanding and wisdom, since they held on to the Lord, worshipped Him, and received whatever revelation He gave them; so that through faithfulness and the fear of the Lord -- them knowing that the Lord alone is Just, Holy, True, and Wise -- it was well fitting than that the Spirit guide them in these concepts that they knew and sought from Him.

 

[Dima 26]

The Spirit is essentially the nature of God and the fruits of the Spirit are invisible aspects of His nature, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control, and so forth. God's law is His instructions for how to express, know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about aspects of His nature, and if these invisible aspects of God's nature were personified into a flesh that we can see, then the Son would be the living embodiment of them, which is why he set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, which is why he is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), and why he is the radiance of God's glory and exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In other words, the Son is who we see when we look at the Father and he put the nature of who the Father is on display by expressing the fruits of the Spirit in sinless obedience to God's law.

In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law, and in Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of God's law. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to His law. I'm Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed a works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 2:25-29, they way to see that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey God's law.

There are many examples of God's laws being given prior to Sinai. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. According to Genesis 18:19, God's way is the way to know Him through testify about aspects of His nature such as righteousness and justice, in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, knowing God is eternal life. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law, and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith, and the same goes for Genesis 5:24, where Enoch must have been taught laws for how to walk in God's way in order to walk with Him. In Genesis 4:7, God told Cain that sin was crouching at the door and he must master it, which implies that he already knew what sin is and must have already been given laws in that regard. In Genesis 26:4-5, Abraham heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, which was all in accordance with the promise and the Gospel of the Kingdom that was made known in advance to Him (Galatians 3:8). God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of His righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so they have always existed, but have not always been widely known by man.

Informative and well put together; I especially liked the first paragraph. There are a few things up for dispute and clarification however, primarily, it appears that you are implying that the law given by Moses (meaning the moral part of it) was essentially communicated unto the faithful even before it was given. This "communication of the law" I take it you mean, not in an inner work of wisdom to teach that which is in agreement to His nature and righteousness attributes, but rather in some outward method of communication much like the law of Moses, however exactly that may have looked like. If so, this seems to be contrary the concept of the righteousness of faith that Paul has shown Abraham to have walked in prior to the law, which the sign of circumcision testified of. Perhaps the ten commandments have sooner or latter -- and not at the same time -- been manifested in a more outward manner before Sinai, like we know murder was after the flood (and basically to Cain as you've mentioned), and adultery too maybe -- as seen how abhorred it was by Abimelech and Pharoah during Abrahams day. The words of Eliphaz to Job would certainly make sense that way: "Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart." Genesis 26:5 that you've shown is particularly straightforward. But the main issue with this is that what God gave unto Israel through His law (again, the moral portion) was largely communicated outwardly all along to His servants before the law, which seems contrary to the uniqueness of the time when God finally decided to lay down by His authority what is good and evil -- thus not suffering sinful man to set the moral standard any longer, even as Paul said: "I had not known sin but by the law".

 

[Dima 26]

Just want to make sure you realize that, there were 613 laws given to Israel, not just the 10. Also, if one person did keep the entire law, who was it and where is it recorded in scripture? Paul was adamant that no one keeps the law. The law was given to show us our sinfulness and our need for a Savior.

I was referring to the moral portion of it, neither did I ever imply that there was anyone who did keep the whole, or yet of anyone possessing a righteousness that was not short of His glory, as even the best of men die -- a sure testimony of being under sin. And certainly I agree that one of the reasons why the law was given was to make us less excusable with regard to evil, thus setting the stage of declaring the Lord righteous, and trusting in the Redeemer.

This is why Jesus came, to fulfill the law on our behalf. He lived a perfect life and died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. When we put our faith in Jesus, we are declared righteous by God, not because of our own works, but because of what Jesus has done for us.

Amen, we are not received for our works, but our works are received in Jesus Christ, hence why we are under grace -- favor and mercy being extended to us because we see the Holy and Just One. This does not undue the basic concept of the righteous and the unrighteous, however, and one can only fall into one of the two categories.

Edit: Abraham loved the Lord more than he loved his son which was the kind of love God looked for when He tested Abraham.

Nice example of the work of love you've found even before the Mosaic Law was given.

 

[Dima 26]

How is this equal replacement, better than having a physical living Christ on earth?

What can we do now that is even greater than what Christ himself could do?

Why is this indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit so much greater than the portions of the Spirit previously available?

I'm guessing your asking me? I did touch on this in mine original post in the third paragraph briefly. However, I think another way of putting this in a more decisive manner would be the following: Jesus Christ was the express image of the Invisible God, and since He did not manifest Him (the Father) until the incarnation, then what the people knew of God prior to that time can be compared to seeing His (the Father's) shape and hearing His voice, as the Apostle John showed in His gospel. But seeing the shape of someone is not taken for actually seeing and knowing someone. As for hearing His voice, this is also what Jesus said in John's gospel, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me", that is, again, hearing and learning of the Father is not the same as knowing the Father. Therefore, as the Son has revealed to us the Father, so the Holy Spirit that is sent by Christ -- that shall take of His and glorify Him (Jesus) -- is now sent in the fullness of His (the Spirit) Person, made possible by the glorification of Christ the Lord.

 

[bling]

I'm guessing your asking me? I did touch on this in mine original post in the third paragraph briefly. However, I think another way of putting this in a more decisive manner would be the following: Jesus Christ was the express image of the Invisible God, and since He did not manifest Him (the Father) until the incarnation, then what the people knew of God prior to that time can be compared to seeing His (the Father's) shape and hearing His voice, as the Apostle John showed in His gospel. But seeing the shape of someone is not taken for actually seeing and knowing someone. As for hearing His voice, this is also what Jesus said in John's gospel, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me", that is, again, hearing and learning of the Father is not the same as knowing the Father. Therefore, as the Son has revealed to us the Father, so the Holy Spirit that is sent by Christ -- that shall take of His and glorify Him (Jesus) -- is now sent in the fullness of His (the Spirit) Person, made possible by the glorification of Christ the Lord.

How does this answer my questions?
How is this equal replacement, better than having a physical living Christ on earth?

What can we do now that is even greater than what Christ himself could do?

Why is this indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit so much greater than the portions of the Spirit previously available?

 

[Soyeong]

Informative and well put together; I especially liked the first paragraph. There are a few things up for dispute and clarification however, primarily, it appears that you are implying that the law given by Moses (meaning the moral part of it) was essentially communicated unto the faithful even before it was given.

Thank you. To say there there are moral parts of God's law is to imply that we can be acting morally while disobeying the other parts of God's law, however, I see no example in the Bible of this, nor do I see any justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Morality is based on God's nature and God's laws are His instructions for how to act in accordance with His nature, so all of His laws are inherently moral laws. Likewise, morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. Legislators give laws according to what they think ought to be done and no one knows better than God what ought to be done, so to claim that some of God's laws are not moral laws is to claim that God made a moral error about what ought to be done when He gave those laws and to claim to have greater moral knowledge than God.

This "communication of the law" I take it you mean, not in an inner work of wisdom to teach that which is in agreement to His nature and righteousness attributes, but rather in some outward method of communication much like the law of Moses, however exactly that may have looked like.

In Genesis 39:9, Jospeh knew that it was a sin to commit adultery, which was long before the Mosaic Law was given at Sinai, so God made His laws known before they were given as a whole to a nation at Sinai. In Genesis 7:2, Noah was told what to do in regard to clean and unclean animals without being told how to tell the difference, and in 8:20, he knew to offer a clean animal, so he must have already been given specific laws in that regard.

While it doesn't go into details about exactly which laws Abraham obeyed in Genesis 26:5, any two sets of instructions for how to practice God's character traits are going to instruct the same types of actions and vary only in the degree of thoroughness of examples. For instance, God conceivably could have graciously taught Abraham 100 examples of how to practice His righteousness in different situations or He could give have given him 1,000 examples, which would have given him a more thorough understanding of how to do that, but all of those examples would have the same spiritual principle in common.

If so, this seems to be contrary the concept of the righteousness of faith that Paul has shown Abraham to have walked in prior to the law, which the sign of circumcision testified of. Perhaps the ten commandments have sooner or latter -- and not at the same time -- been manifested in a more outward manner before Sinai, like we know murder was after the flood (and basically to Cain as you've mentioned), and adultery too maybe -- as seen how abhorred it was by Abimelech and Pharoah during Abrahams day. The words of Eliphaz to Job would certainly make sense that way: "Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart." Genesis 26:5 that you've shown is particularly straightforward. But the main issue with this is that what God gave unto Israel through His law (again, the moral portion) was largely communicated outwardly all along to His servants before the law, which seems contrary to the uniqueness of the time when God finally decided to lay down by His authority what is good and evil -- thus not suffering sinful man to set the moral standard any longer, even as Paul said: "I had not known sin but by the law".

The only way to become someone who has a character trait is through faith that we ought to be someone who practices it apart from being required to have first practiced it a certain amount in order to become it as if it could be earned as a wage. Becoming someone who has a character trait means becoming someone who practices it and it is contradictory to become someone who has a character trait apart from becoming someone who practices it. For example, the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be someone who practices courageousness apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of courageous works first in order to become courageous as if it could be earned as a wage. Becoming someone who is courageous means becoming someone who practices courageousness and it is contradictory to become someone who is courageous apart from becoming someone who practices courageousness.

The same is true for other character traits, including righteousness and other aspects of God's nature. God's law is His instructions for how to practice His character traits, not for how to attain our own as if they could be earned as a wage, and what we become someone who attains His character traits through faith is someone who practices them. This is why we are declared righteous by faith apart from being required to have done righteous works first, but the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31). Our faith in God is about believing that we ought to be someone who practices His character traits and trusting in His nature to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying His law rather than leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes (Proverbs 3:5-7).