The near death experience of Pastor Bob Jones!

[lismore]

Oh sorry I misunderstood.

I've read some distregard the accounts because their experiences arent exactly the same. I'm wondering why would they be the same since God is very creative . Also, Don Piper was an adult and a pastor while Colton was a very young child when they had their experiences. They could have seen the same thing but have different perspectives.Then throw in the difficulty of expressing in our terminology about God and His home, I'm not surprised

Also, some use the number of times in Scripture to determine if something deserves consideration. But everything Jesus did isn't even recorded "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." John 21:25

Hi tturt. 'The experiences aren't exactly the same', is that a way to spin that many of these experiences perhaps contradict each other and perhaps also contradict the scriptures? Many of them introduce false gospels, one I heard was advocating universalism, another one I saw on Revelation TV said people would go to heaven or hell based on whether they tithed or not.

Perhaps they're different because Colton Burpo was a child and Don Piper was an adult, but perhaps they're different because one or both of them is making it up to sell books.

The bible says 'Test everything' and Jesus also warned us in many places to be on our guard against false prophets and deceivers, especially in the Last Days. Jesus warned specifically that in the Last Days deceivers would come and deceive even the elect.

In the clip I posted above 'Bob Jones' said he took 'Todd Bentley' up to the third heaven. Given some of the weird and dubious teachings Todd Bentley bandied about and that he was about to crash and burn I'm surprised no-one in the third heaven told Bob Jones to keep better company.

If we want to know about heaven or hell then there is God's infallible word. At best these heaven and hell encounters are superfluous to requirements. IMO we should be focusing on God's word, too many churches are giving tales of these odd experiences preference over God's word. God Bless

 

[DennisTate]

Hello Dennis. My question would be that if the writer of Corinthians, an Apostle called by The Lord himself considered that an experience such as that was unspeakable and unlawful for a man to repeat, why can individuals such as Bob Jones speak and repeat them? Not just that, but profit from them. God Bless

My impression would be it was not the Life Review part of his NDE that bothered the conscience of Paul..... but... many near death experiencers are explained Eventual Universal Salvation...... which is a topic that can be pretty confusing.

There is even a specific fallen angel mentioned in reference to Yom Kippur...... that is like Passover... but later on in the Jewish cycle of Holy Days.


"but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD
to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness
to Aza'zel." (Leviticus 16:10)

I have wondered if that could be the fallen angel who repents, divides the kingdom of Satan..... and causes it to fall?????

 

[lismore]

Bob Jones said that you didn't have to be 100% correct on prophesy just 65% would do ... I don't agree.

Hello geetrue

The biblical definition of a prophet is that not one of his words shall fall to the ground. One false word and we know it's a false prophet, in the OT giving false prophecies was a capital offence- leading the body astray is an extremely serious matter.

If anyone claimed to be a prophet of God and said they were 65% accurate~ these are characters like Mohammed, David Ike and Joseph Smith of the Mormons. Mohammed got some things right some of the time.

Jesus said we were to watch out for false prophets Matt 7:15. It's a command of our Lord.

Galatians 1:8 reveals how serious it is for people to come with false gospels and false teachings - they're damned.

God Bless

 

[DennisTate]

Hello geetrue

The biblical definition of a prophet is that not one of his words shall fall to the ground. One false word and we know it's a false prophet, in the OT giving false prophecies was a capital offence- leading the body astray is an extremely serious matter.

If anyone claimed to be a prophet of God and said they were 65% accurate~ these are characters like Mohammed, David Ike and Joseph Smith of the Mormons. Mohammed got some things right some of the time.

Jesus said we were to watch out for false prophets Matt 7:15. It's a command of our Lord.

Galatians 1:8 reveals how serious it is for people to come with false gospels and false teachings - they're damned.

God Bless

But this is dangerous and we had better be careful because Jonah stated that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days. But... they repented and what he predicted did not come to pass. I have read though that Nineveh was destroyed forty years later and one day is often symbolic of one year.

When prophets give clear warning that what they predict is CONDITIONAL....then this aspect of what they wrote must be considered......................

 

[lismore]

When prophets give clear warning that what they predict is CONDITIONAL....then this aspect of what they wrote must be considered......................

Hello Dennis. Obviously yes a conditional prophecy can have two outcomes. But to take the example of Jonah, if Nineveh had not repented then they would have been destroyed in 40 days. There are screeds of prophecies from people in the church which were not conditional and which did not come to pass. Harold Camping's prophecies for example. It is dangerous not to take scriptures warnings- we should Test Everything, we should test those who claim to be sent by God and we should watch out for false prophets. If there were not false prophets in the church then why would the Lord Jesus tell us to watch out for them? God Bless

 

[lismore]

When prophets give clear warning that what they predict is CONDITIONAL....then this aspect of what they wrote must be considered......................

Here is an example of what could be considered false prophecy by 'Prophetess Muldoon'. I would note from the video clip 1) the ammunition it gives to the presenter of the clip 2) the people in the congregation who defend Prophetess Muldoon after she's been caught out, it's like 'Great is Diana of the Ephesians'.

 

[DennisTate]

Here is an example of what could be considered false prophecy by 'Prophetess Muldoon'. I would note from the video clip 1) the ammunition it gives to the presenter of the clip 2) the people in the congregation who defend Prophetess Muldoon after she's been caught out, it's like 'Great is Diana of the Ephesians'.

Well..... in the first part of her message to him she does say that ..... what she says to him would be strange to him! Obviously she was correct in that prediction......... so perhaps the pastor repents later on... which could eventually fulfill her nice prophecies to him.....

Or..... she could be one of the not so good prophetesses..... that is above my level of understanding and is between her and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.

Jhn 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

 

[lismore]

Or..... she could be one of the not so good prophetesses..... that is above my level of understanding and is between her and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.

hello Dennis. Thank you for your reply. I think there are only two classes of prophets, those who speak from God and those who don't. Not so good or almost right means fail. Jesus warned us in Matthew 7:15 to watch out for false prophets, Jeremiah 14:14 also reveals that people can share the delusions of their own minds.

Please understand where I'm coming from. I believe in prophecy, I believe God speaks today and I would welcome a genuine word form the Lord with joy.

But sometimes pentecostal-charismatic circles in my experience can be riddled with persons giving obviously false words and prophecies and nothing is ever done about it. Some have cost people their lives. When I was in AOG a speaker picked me out of the congregation and gave a false word of knowledge. Everyone in the church knew it was a false word of knowledge but the speaker was invited back to give more false words of knowledge.

God Bless

 

[mourningdove~]

hello Dennis. Thank you for your reply. I think there are only two classes of prophets, those who speak from God and those who don't. Not so good or almost right means fail. Jesus warned us in Matthew 7:15 to watch out for false prophets, Jeremiah 14:14 also reveals that people can share the delusions of their own minds.

Please understand where I'm coming from. I believe in prophecy, I believe God speaks today and I would welcome a genuine word form the Lord with joy.

But sometimes pentecostal-charismatic circles in my experience can be riddled with persons giving obviously false words and prophecies and nothing is ever done about it. Some have cost people their lives. When I was in AOG a speaker picked me out of the congregation and gave a false word of knowledge. Everyone in the church knew it was a false word of knowledge but the speaker was invited back to give more false words of knowledge.

God Bless

Good points.

I think too often we may forget how much potential damage can be done by false words and prophecies that are believed and acted upon. People can get hurt. Sometimes lives are destroyed. Those are not things to be taken lightly...

 

[lismore]

Good points.

I think too often we may forget how much potential damage can be done by false words and prophecies that are believed and acted upon. People can get hurt. Sometimes lives are destroyed. Those are not things to be taken lightly...

Hi mourningdove. Yes. False prophecies also provide ammunition for cessationists who miss out on some of God's blessings that could be theirs. Overall I think the enemy's most effective tactic is not to persecute the church from outside, it's to get someone in leadership in a church who is not right, this chokes the church from within. False teachings, false prophecies etc, that's why I think we need to be alert and also minister to/help those who had been victims of false teaching or false prophecies. God Bless

 

[DennisTate]

Hi mourningdove. Yes. False prophecies also provide ammunition for cessationists who miss out on some of God's blessings that could be theirs. Overall I think the enemy's most effective tactic is not to persecute the church from outside, it's to get someone in leadership in a church who is not right, this chokes the church from within. False teachings, false prophecies etc, that's why I think we need to be alert and also minister to/help those who had been victims of false teaching or false prophecies. God Bless

True... but throughout these past nineteen centuries the most common negative characteristic of false leadership seems to be the inability to discern when a genuinely gifted Christian is there in the congregation.....

 

[DennisTate]

Hi tturt. 'The experiences aren't exactly the same', is that a way to spin that many of these experiences perhaps contradict each other and perhaps also contradict the scriptures? Many of them introduce false gospels, one I heard was advocating universalism, another one I saw on Revelation TV said people would go to heaven or hell based on whether they tithed or not.

Perhaps they're different because Colton Burpo was a child and Don Piper was an adult, but perhaps they're different because one or both of them is making it up to sell books.

The bible says 'Test everything' and Jesus also warned us in many places to be on our guard against false prophets and deceivers, especially in the Last Days. Jesus warned specifically that in the Last Days deceivers would come and deceive even the elect.

In the clip I posted above 'Bob Jones' said he took 'Todd Bentley' up to the third heaven. Given some of the weird and dubious teachings Todd Bentley bandied about and that he was about to crash and burn I'm surprised no-one in the third heaven told Bob Jones to keep better company.

If we want to know about heaven or hell then there is God's infallible word. At best these heaven and hell encounters are superfluous to requirements. IMO we should be focusing on God's word, too many churches are giving tales of these odd experiences preference over God's word. God Bless

All that I can say is that these near death experience accounts were instrumental in getting me out of the false doctrine of Soul Sleep for which I am extremely grateful.

 

[Paul Davies]

Hello geetrue

The biblical definition of a prophet is that not one of his words shall fall to the ground.
God Bless

Actually that's not accurate, and was not applied in such a black and white way by the ancient Hebrews. Certainly it is not true of NT prophecy, as our relationship as 'sons' puts us in a very different position to an OT prophet, who simply was to parrot what the Lord said. Our NT relationship means we bear responsibility for how we deliver a Word and the Application and interpretations we apply. The rule of thumb is: "the higher the clarity of revelation, the greater the responsibility to obey accurately".
There are several Biblical examples of Words that weren't totally accurate (and my brain is totally blank of the example I was thinking about only yesterday, sorry).
There are also different types of Prophets: Seers like Ezekiel (dreams, visions, weird spiritual experiences) where EVERYTHING must be interpreted, and Prophets, who seem to operate more by the Word of Knowledge.
Mike Bickle's book Growing in the Prophetic is very good teaching on this topic.

 

[Paul Davies]

"Did you learn to love", then He let them right on in?

That's salvation by what WE do! That's a different gospel. This isn't good at all.

Only if we assume that the 'gospel' we are preaching is what the Lord taught. In most Evangelical churches, it's not. Jesus preached the Kingdom, and was specific that the Gospel of the Kingdom was the one which would be preached in all the world before the end (Matt 24).

Jesus was clear that although Salvation cannot be earned, it IS conditional. If we don't forgive, God will NOT forgive us.
The question asked was not the in/out issue - Bob said it was only asked of those who were in the 'heaven' line - it was a reward issue. One of the incidents he related from this experience was a woman who answered: "Only you Lord. My husband died young and I got bitter." To which the Lord replied: "You kept trusting in me for salvation so you got in by the skin of your teeth, but you don't have much reward."

 

[lismore]

Hello. Thank you for your reply.

Actually that's not accurate, and was not applied in such a black and white way by the ancient Hebrews.

I'm sorry I completely disagree with you! Look at this passage of scripture:

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them”, you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).

But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” (Deuteronomy 18:20)

Giving a false prophecy in the Old Testament is an immediate capital offence.

In the New Testament Jesus warns us to watch out for false prophets, the 'wolf in sheep's clothing'. (Matthew 7:15)

Certainly it is not true of NT prophecy, as our relationship as 'sons' puts us in a very different position to an OT prophet, who simply was to parrot what the Lord said. Our NT relationship means we bear responsibility for how we deliver a Word and the Application and interpretations we apply. The rule of thumb is: "the higher the clarity of revelation, the greater the responsibility to obey accurately".

Mr Davies. These are your assertions without any scriptural support whatever.

There are several Biblical examples of Words that weren't totally accurate (and my brain is totally blank of the example I was thinking about only yesterday, sorry).

The forgotten example aside I am sure the bible records many examples of false prophecies by false prophets as a warning. That does not mean we need to copy these false prophets.

There are also different types of Prophets: Seers like Ezekiel (dreams, visions, weird spiritual experiences) where EVERYTHING must be interpreted, and Prophets, who seem to operate more by the Word of Knowledge.

Well, look at is this way. When Micah prophesied that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, people could take this prophecy as 100% accurate. No interpretation indeed. Bethlehem would be the place.
(Micah 5:2)

Or after Jeremiah prophesied that the exile would last seventy years Daniel read the prophecy and could count on it 100%. No interpretation needed, the exile would last seventy years.
(Daniel 9:1-2)

Mike Bickle's book Growing in the Prophetic is very good teaching on this topic.

I would advise you to focus instead on the scriptures: 'All scripture is God breathed' 2 Timothy 3:16.
'Study to show yourself approved' 2 Timothy 2:15

Amen and God Bless

 

[Paul Davies]

So you haven't worked out yet that not everything we need to know is in Scripture. The Word of God is a person, not a book - the book is that PART of the Word that got written down as a benchmark. I would advise you to not be immature and read the book of the guy who didn't believe this stuff and ended up the pastor...
Also, by your rigid OT understanding, Jonah was a false prophet (better cut out that part), Agabus was a false prophet (there goes another), and nearly all the written prophets were too - much of what they wrote DIDN'T HAPPEN (yet).
Surely humility would admit one doesn't know everything and do some actual research....

 

[lismore]

Hello! Thank you for your reply.

So you haven't worked out yet that not everything we need to know is in Scripture.

Perhaps I've worked out that we're more likely to find what we need to know in the scriptures than in the writings of 'Mike Bickle'.

The Word of God is a person, not a book - the book is that PART of the Word that got written down as a benchmark.

You do look on the scriptures as authoritative in some shape or form? I don't think reading the scriptures diminishes our view of the Lord Jesus Christ, quite the contrary in fact.

I would advise you to not be immature and read the book of the guy who didn't believe this stuff and ended up the pastor...

Sorry, no idea what this means.

Also, by your rigid OT understanding, Jonah was a false prophet (better cut out that part),

I quoted some Old Testament passages to you that you have not responded to. What's your 'understanding' of the passages I posted?

Agabus was a false prophet (there goes another),

You'll kindly have to explain what you're meaning by this.

Agabus appears twice in the NT Testament. Once to prophesy a famine (Acts 11:27) that happened during the reign of Claudius and once to prophesy that Paul would be arrested (Acts 21:10), which also happened. You have not posted any references to what you're referring to, so I'm not quite sure what you're point is.

Surely humility would admit one doesn't know everything and do some actual research....

Please don't take this the wrong way but I advise you to be careful. Many people have risen and claimed themselves to be prophets or teachers, Mohammed, Joseph Smith for example. They claim to have new revelations but their teachings contradict the scriptures.

From what you're sharing it seems that the 'prophet' called 'Mike Bickle', if he's teaching what you're saying that he is, I would advise caution.

Test what he's saying against the scriptures.

God Bless

 

[lismore]

Hello Paul Davies. I googled 'Mike Bickle Agabus' to try to discover what you're point was. This article was the first hit, you may find it interesting:

Did Agabus get it wrong?

God Bless

 

[Paul Davies]

My parents knew Bob Jones. Their first encounter was weird, yet totally accurate. In 10 minutes he told them more useful material than decades of theological training. His opening sentence nailed my dad's character. Everyone who knew him testifies of his love for people, accurate words (John Wimber's son Shaun was brought back to the Lord after a Word Bob brought).
But prophets are MEN, just like pastors. It is gross hypocrisy to demand 100% accuracy from the prophetic, when pastors make mistakes weekly, and totally lacking in grace and forgiveness. When Bob got it wrong, it was a mistake, NOT a deception. Bob had more revelation from the Lord than almost anyone I have heard of (two exceptions), and there are so many testimonies of the fruit of his ministry.

 

[Paul Davies]

Hello Paul Davies. I googled 'Mike Bickle Agabus' to try to discover what you're point was. This article was the first hit, you may find it interesting:

Did Agabus get it wrong?

God Bless

By the standard YOU quoted Agabus got it wrong. He was generally correct but not accurate in the details. Arguing semantics is pointless if you are demanding 100% accuracy as the only mark of validity. Maybe if more Christians could actually "hear (His) voice"....