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Featured The name of the beast is 666: euporia (prosperity)

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by ProtectionET, May 24, 2018.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    References to the sons of God and the Son of God are both present in Scripture.
    "antichrist(s)" is/are present in Scripture.
    "Antichrist" is not.

    "Antichrist" ignores John's descriptions and guidelines for identifying antichrists, who were already an extant plurality in John's day. There is nothing in John's descriptions to support a futurized singularity.

    The apostate papacy, which was the prevailing antichrist of its era, was many centuries in the future to Irenaeus. Had he lived during the Reformation, he almost certainly would have recognized what the Reformers recognized: antichrist was a present reality.

    In their views of a futurized Antichrist, there is no difference between the two futurisms. Both originate in Ribera's counterfeit commentary in the papal counter-reformation, and both are characterized by a surfeit of "interpretation by imagination".

    A surfeit of examples of the aforementioned interpretation by imagination.
     
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Just as "Trinity" and "Bible" are not.

    But the idea of the future Antichrist is present in Scripture, just as the ideas of the Trinity and the Bible are.

    Also, Christians need to be aware that during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this will not require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he is not the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the Gospel by which people become saved from hell (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this would not require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' Second Coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' Second Coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned, via "reincarnation". And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' Second Coming will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), also called Satanism, a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times the prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

    The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and to kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus Christ confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus suffered and died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And He rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

    Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the future Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which almost everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And the Antichrist could claim that even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing that it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved King David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is that 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply mean that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same person.

    Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said: "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said: "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

    But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12), and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified Himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24) returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

    Near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

    So the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the world. The world will have been expecting to wage war against some evil Old Testament god named "YHWH" with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet), and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer), and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist), and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9). But then, instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH suffering and dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).

    When the people of the world realize at that moment how thoroughly they have been duped, and see in the sky the huge angelic armies (2 Thessalonians 1:7, Matthew 25:31) of the true Jesus, the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, then they could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15-21).

    It doesn't ignore them, but means that the future Antichrist will adhere to them.

    Nothing in John's descriptions denies a future Antichrist.

    Even during the Reformation, the papacy did not fulfill John's descriptions and guidelines for identifying antichrists.

    That's right.

    For Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are still future to us, because they are about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' Christ's Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment. Similarly, even this Tribulation as it is described in Matthew 24 cannot have happened yet, because Jesus' Second Coming must occur immediately after this Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).
     
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It did. The Reformers' declaration of the papacy as antichrist could not have been sustained if it could not have been demonstrated.
     
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  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 24:29
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    This is apocalyptic metaphoric language describing the demise of the old covenant economy.

    Isaiah employed similar language prophesying of the fall of Babylon, which occurred in 539 BC.

    Isaiah 13
    The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
    10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
    19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
     
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    It wasn't demonstrated from John's descriptions and guidelines for identifying antichrists, just as it wasn't demonstrated from any other Bible verses.

    For example, the papacy never fulfilled the prophecies regarding the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15), which could be an android image of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), which the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could order to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so that the Antichrist will not want to ever appear or speak in public again.

    Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, which appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think that the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image is not the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.

    In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life", or "breath" (pneuma: G4151), can mean "spirit", in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way that this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of neural-network supercomputers running highly advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of the neural networks having been imprinted with the Antichrist's own brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android will not actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer and cannot tell whether or not it has consciousness, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

    But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's. For it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world that it is not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers. For his android body could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his body, which could be made of titanium covered with some practically everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The non-Christian world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

    The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (of Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And to make it easy for everyone in the world to see the Antichrist's image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every smartphone, tablet, laptop, PC, TV, GPS navigation system, and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a lifelike, computer-generated image on each individual's smartphone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

    And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives. For it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all of the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they post on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.

    And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's smartphone at set times each day to be worshipped. And smartphones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged remotely to determine the exact location of the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's smartphone and know exactly where everyone is.

    Also, smartphones contain cameras and microphones which can be remotely opened secretly to see and hear what is going on around the smartphones at any time. So when the Antichrist's image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's smartphone to determine what everyone is doing and saying. And the image could then demand that the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect his noncompliance and notify the nearest police officers of his exact location, and order the officers to arrest him for blasphemy and treason. He could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (in a brainwashing camp, or through physical torture, if necessary). But if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

    The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the Antichrist's image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.

    Huge beheading structures could be built by which twenty "infidels" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "infidels" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a large guillotine blade which could start-out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it is released it will easily slice down through ten necks on one side of the "U", and then continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another ten heads. This could all happen so quickly that it will appear as if all twenty heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by twenty geysers of blood rushing out at the same time for all of the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions and computers, or wherever they are at the time, watching the spectacle on their smartphones.

    Also, immediately after the show, at the site where it took place teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all of the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What is left of the bodies could then be stuffed into shipping containers, which, once full, could be painted black and stacked like stones into a gigantic "Black Pyramid of Death", which could eventually reach some thirty stories high and contain tens of millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the Pyramid which will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is that He didn't, for He created Adam and Eve immortal. It was not until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to Christians through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23. Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the Pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom love death: Proverbs 8:36b.)

    Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be ordered to create a group worship center where everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

    This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "Be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our Great Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all of their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", some people in each group could really get into the evening worship sessions, and even (in their words) "Truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"

    For example, as a worshipper named Mary, a housewife with two little children, is bowing down before the image of the Antichrist, he could speak forth to her: "Mary! Mary! My beloved handmaid! You are so precious to me, my love. You so faithfully take care of dear little Johnnie and Michelle, whom I have entrusted to you, that you might raise them up to become My servants and faithful worshippers, just as you are. How I love thee, my Mary. How I cherish thee, my precious dove!". And poor Mary could begin to cry with happiness over her dear Lord's kind words to her, not realizing that they are merely the concoction of an artificial-intelligence program running in a neural-network supercomputer down in the basement of some government building.

    Also, the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than four years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns physically from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer, and the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up His own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
     
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Matthew 24:29 can refer literally to clouds blocking the light from the sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars", that is, meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, that is, ones which will pass through the clouds and be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can mean the first heaven, the sky/atmosphere. Also, "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal, fallen-angelic "powers" who currently rule the unsaved world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

    Regarding "the demise of the old covenant economy", that brings to mind:

    Matthew 24:3 . . . what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Here the original Greek word (G0165) translated as "world" can be translated as "age" (Ephesians 2:7, Colossians 1:26).

    It is sometimes claimed that the end of the age refers to the end of the Old Covenant age in 70 AD. But the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the second Jewish temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment that Jesus Christ died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a) and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that He brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

    Also, while the apostles of the Church asked Jesus Christ about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), He did not tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the second Jewish temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, or even at the end of the Tribulation, that is, at Jesus' post-tribulation, Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus did not tell His apostles other things during His ministry (John 16:12). It would not be until later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all non-Christians of all times will be cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), will not occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken . . .

    Just as the highly detailed Tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, so the Tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 have never been fulfilled. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same, future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the future Antichrist's literal, 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the Church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

    To properly understand the timing of Isaiah 13:10, it should be read in its context (Isaiah 13:1-22).

    The city of Babylon referred to in Isaiah 13 (verses 1,19) is not the ancient city of Babylon, just as it is not the symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" of Revelation chapters 17-18. Instead, it is only the present-day, literal city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the Church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus Christ as He alone wages war against the world's armies at His physical return from heaven (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, Second-Coming Day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

    Isaiah 13:10,13 refers to the same, future, Second-Coming time as Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:15.

    Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus Christ's defeat of the world's armies at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the Church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' Second Coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East which in ancient times was called "Media", and is now in northwestern Iran. The Kurds who now live there, and in surrounding areas, claim to be the descendants of the ancient Medes.

    In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" are not the ancient Medes who conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes did not make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

    In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon (in Iraq) has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 will not be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming.
     
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was fully prepared for an avalanche of entertaining reading regarding this chapter.

    In consulting numerous commentaries, I could not find one which futurized the entire chapter. All of them acknowledge at least partial historical fulfillment.

    What commentator(s) futurize the entire chapter?

    Historical secular works about this event confirm complete historical fulfillment. "History books" do exist.

    The key common thread appearing in both Isaiah and secular history, is that of Cyrus, who was God's instrument in the capture of Babylon. His role in the events described in Isaiah 13 is detailed briefly in Isaiah 45. His appearance in both secular and scriptural accounts further confirms complete historical fulfillment.

    If God would prophesy in Isaiah 44 and 45 of the historical Cyrus who would capture historical Babylon, there is no reason that He would not also prophesy in Isaiah 13 of the historical Babylon that the historical Cyrus would capture.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is nothing which precludes Scripture's use of metaphoric language. Scripture's initial prophecy in Genesis 3:15 is predominantly metaphoric.

    This is another example.

    There is no mention or implication of clouds. The lights of the sun and moon are extinguished at their sources, not blocked.
    There is no mention or implication of meteors or meterorites, which are not stars.
    There is no mention or implication that the powers of the heavens are angelic. Angels are spirit beings. A spirit being cannot be literally grasped. How can it be shaken without being grasped?

    All of the foregoing are "interpretation by imagination".
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  9. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    True. Spiritually, the old covenant was destroyed at Calvary. However, old covenant sacrifices and other ritual trappings continued until the 70 AD timeframe, but they were no longer recognized by God.

    70 AD brought the physical destruction to complete the spiritual destruction that had previously occurred at Calvary.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  11. ProtectionET

    ProtectionET absent

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    Nothing like this.

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    (Matthew 5: 17-19)


    Of the seven feasts of the Lord (Leviticus 23: 4-44), during the First Coming of Jesus Christ, three feasts were performed, one more feast of the Lord was performed by the Church, and the remaining three feasts of the Lord will be performed during the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All was fulfilled. Only Christ as the sinless One could, and did, fulfill the law in its entirety.

    Luke 24
    25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
    26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
    27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
    44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

    Acts 13
    29
    And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

    John 19:28
    After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
     
  13. ProtectionET

    ProtectionET absent

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    And where is it written here that the whole Scripture is already fulfilled?

    If all Scripture were fulfilled at the time of the death of Jesus Christ, there would be no Resurrection, or Holy Spirit in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, there would be no Second Coming. Jesus Christ fulfilled the part of the Scripture that spoke of His First Coming. The rest will be fulfilled at the time of the Second Coming, by those who are today in Jesus Christ.
     
  14. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    People who protest the usage of the word antichrist applied to a specific person are only doing so to avoid the scriptural teaching there is such a person , just as the scripture says there will be many false prophets - Scripture also states outright of thee false prophet who partners with the Man of Lawlessness , aka Man of Sin that sits in the temple and declares to the world that he is God , when he is not,

    It does not matter if scripture does not say "the Man Antichrist" simply because in various scriptures it means the same thing- a specific person who declares himself is God and denounces all that is called God is against the true God and attempting to replace the true God with himself , then he demands that everyone submit unto him and worship himself and kills anyone that rejects him as God -
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    There is.

    For Matthew 24:29-30 refers to Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, when He will appear in the clouds of the sky, the first heaven: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the future Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

    -

    So why does partial preterism believe in a future Second Coming, but not a future Tribulation, when:

    1. The Second Coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the Church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);

    2. The Second Coming and rapture cannot occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation, and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and

    3. At Jesus' Second Coming to rapture and marry the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?

    Partial preterism might answer: "It is obvious that the Second Coming has not happened yet". And that is right. But full preterism nonetheless still mistakenly claims that the Second Coming, resurrection, and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it is only allegorical, not literal" argument which partial preterism uses to mistakenly claim that all of the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting that the Second Coming, resurrection of the Church, and rapture have not occurred yet, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact that the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have not occurred yet either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Matthew 5:17-18 means that Jesus Christ came the first time not to abolish the prophecies in the Mosaic law and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming, but to fulfill all those prophecies (Luke 24:44-48; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53). Matthew 5:17-18 cannot mean that Jesus came not to abolish the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for He did come to do that, on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19). Also, Matthew 5:17-18 cannot mean that Jesus came to fulfill the letter of all of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments, for He could not possibly have done that. For example, some of those commandments applied only to women after childbirth (Leviticus 12:4-8), or to wives suspected of adultery by their husbands (Numbers 5:19-31).

    As the Christ (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44-46), the mediator of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-9), Jesus had the divine authority to contradict the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments and replace them with His own, even better, New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:38-44, Matthew 19:7-9, John 8:5-7), such as those He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 4:2). And as the Christ, Jesus had the divine authority to allow His disciples to break the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Matthew 12:1-8).

    Matthew 5:18 did not mean that heaven and earth had to pass away before the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments could be abolished, but that Jesus Christ had to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming (Luke 24:44-46; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53) before He could abolish the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (for both Jews and Gentiles, of all times) on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

    That is, on Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

    All Christians, whether Jews or Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and should not keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Christians keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

    The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18-19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those which He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason for any Christian to ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after He had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before He brought this promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), while the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices for sin (Leviticus 23:19), while the New Covenant replaced these with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself on the Cross (Hebrews 10).

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:21-25). So those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, Abraham's son by a bondmaid (Galatians 4:22), who was cast out (Galatians 4:30), while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:28), Abraham's son by a freewoman (Galatians 4:22,31), who became his heir (Galatians 4:30b).

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, including the letter of its Ten Commandments, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8.

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been completely and forever done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it is still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), while the New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8-9b), which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits Christians to remove the veil, and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

    But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even some Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved from hell (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any Christians are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law thinking that they must do so in order to be saved from hell, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus Christ will profit them nothing. They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

    Matthew 5:19-20 refers to the New Covenant/New Testament commandments/sayings (Matthew 5:19, Matthew 7:24-29) which Jesus, as the Christ (Matthew 5:17b, Luke 24:44-46), was just about to give in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and which New Covenant commandments "exceed in righteousness" (Matthew 5:20 to 7:29) the (now) abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was kept by the Pharisees. Compare what the apostle Paul says about himself:

    Philippians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
    6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
    7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
    8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
    9 ¶And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
    10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
    11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
    12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
    13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
    14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    -

    It is sometimes asked: "So are we now under a stricter law?"

    The answer is Yes. For Jesus Christ shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife is not a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

    Jesus Christ also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while His New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed His disciples to work on the sabbath, and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus Himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

    So in obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).
     
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agreed. He fulfilled all spoken of Him in the Old Testament.
     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is no mention or implication of clouds in Matthew 24:29. The reference to clouds in verse 30 is irrelevant to verse 29, in which the sun is itself darkened, not merely blocked. This is reinforced by the description regarding the moon, which it is said does not give her light. Since the moon reflects the sun, this can only be true if the sun is itself darkened.

    The synopsis of the foregoing is that a literalization of verse 29 reduces it to an absurdity. It is intended to be understood metaphorically, as it is also in Isaiah 13, consistent with the intentions of the authors.

    Joel employs similar metaphors in his prophecy of the birth of the New Testament Church in Joel 2:28-32. Peter quotes the passage virtually verbatim in Acts 2:16-21 at Pentecost, and ensures that there is no misunderstanding regarding the meaning of the language being utilized: "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" (Acts 2:16). Both authors understood the astronomic phenomena in the passage metaphorically rather than literally.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  19. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    He didn't.

    For Luke 24:44 does not say that Jesus Christ fulfilled at His first coming everything prophesied in the Old Testament regarding Him, but that everything prophesied in the Old Testament regarding Him must be fulfilled. For Jesus did not fulfill, for example, Zechariah 14 at His first coming. But because it must be fulfilled, He will fulfill it at His future, Second Coming, along with all of the other Old Testament prophecies which He did not fulfill at His first coming (e.g. Micah 4:1-4, Isaiah 19:18-25).

    So Acts 13:29 must refer only to all that was written in the Old Testament regarding Jesus Christ's suffering and dying for our sins (e.g. Isaiah 53, Psalms 22). Indeed, Acts 13:29 was even before Jesus had resurrected on the third day after His death, which resurrection was also written of Him in the Old Testament (e.g. Acts 26:22-23, Psalms 16:10, Hosea 6:2).

    Zechariah 14 is about Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming with all of His saints (Zechariah 14:5b; 1 Thessalonians 3:13b), in the sense of all Christians of all times; and about the subsequent Millennium, when Jesus will rule the earth from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:8-21, Micah 4:1-4). Zechariah 14:3 refers to the Second-Coming battle of Revelation 19:19-21. And Zechariah 14:4 shows that at Jesus' Second Coming, He will physically land on the Mount of Olives, just as at the end of His first coming, He physically ascended from the Mount of Olives. Acts 1:11-12 says that Jesus will return in like manner as He left.

    Before Jesus Christ returns, at the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 the world's armies will gather at a staging area at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo, Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). They will then move south and pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus returns and totally defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-5, Revelation 19:19-21). Jesus will then remain on the earth as King (Zechariah 14:9), and the non-Christians left alive on the earth (Matthew 24:40) will be forced to come up to Jerusalem and worship Him annually (Zechariah 14:16-19). Jesus and the physically resurrected Church will rule the non-Christian survivors of the nations with a rod of iron during the Millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6).

    Also, Zechariah 12:2-14 refers to the same future time as Zechariah 14.

    *******

    It isn't. For they are at the same event, the future, Second Coming.

    The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30a), if it is not the sign of the Cross, can be the appearance of Jesus Christ Himself (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at His future, Second Coming, when "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30b). Before He lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), He could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see His Second Coming with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30b require. Or, most people could see His Second Coming via a live, breaking-news video feed to their smartphone, computer, or television. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus Christ's Second Coming is not obvious to everyone at the same time, then it is not really Jesus Christ. Another test is that the Church's physical resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture up) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the Second Coming of the real Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Joel 2:30-31 will not be fulfilled until the future Tribulation (Revelation 6:12, Revelation 8:7, Revelation 17:16, Revelation 16:19) of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    The sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera), which will occur during only the first stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud, which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes farther away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

    Just as when the apostle Matthew says: "this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias" (Matthew 3:3-4), he means that John the Baptist is the fulfillment of Isaiah 40:3, so when the apostle Peter says: "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" (Acts 2:16-18), he means that what happened at the Pentecost in Acts 2 began the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32. For just as Joel 2:28-32 prophesied the pouring out of God's Holy Spirit in the "last days" (Acts 2:16-17), so the disciples of Jesus Christ had just received Holy Spirit baptism at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:4). And this happened in the "last days". For they began at Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2). And Acts 2:17 continues to be fulfilled today whenever a Christian receives Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46, Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Joel 2:30-31 will not be fulfilled until the future Tribulation (Revelation 6:12, Revelation 8:7, Revelation 17:16, Revelation 16:19) of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. And Joel 2:32 will not be ultimately fulfilled until Jesus' future, Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Zechariah 12:10-14), which will not occur until immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2-21).

    They didn't.

    Similarly, the book of Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for Christians of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically, and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it which are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

    Just as Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the just-preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the Millennium in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal, and will begin right after Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when He will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

    -

    Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the Church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these five views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the Church alive today that it will not have to physically suffer through the Tribulation.

    Preterism says that the Tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus Christ will return and rapture the Church into the third heaven before the Tribulation. Symbolicism says that the Tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which Christians have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some Christians have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the Tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

    But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these five views have each tried to build up between the Church and the Tribulation will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the Church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These five views may have left some Christians unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these five views could even contribute to some Christians ultimately losing their salvation, because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the Tribulation, when they will become "offended" that God is letting them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

    Even though the Church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future Tribulation, the Church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many Christians will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12). And their physical death will in no way rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
     
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,037
    Non-Denom
    The clouds in v. 30 do not qualify in v. 29 because they merely block light rather than eliminate it at source, as the verse requires. Thus v. 29 is to be understood metaphorically.

    Everything described by Joel was fulfilled at a minimum initially in Acts 2. Ongoing repetitive fulfillment is not precluded. In the same way as astronomic phenomena were fulfilled metaphorically in David's deliverance in Psalm 18, so they were all fulfilled at least initially at Pentecost in Acts 2.

    He did.

    Luke 24
    44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    He is the beneficiary of the promises to Abraham (Galatians 3:16), the One in whom all of God's promises are confirmed (2 Corinthians 1:20), and the Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:1,2).

    Interpretation via imagination.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
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