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The myth of the "Nested Hierarchy of Common Descent"

Loudmouth

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The new work on vocal learning relied on laser dissection of brain regions of zebra finches known to be involved in vocalizations and then analysis of gene activity there. The researchers then compared those levels to gene expression levels in human brains. They found that humans and birds share 55 genes between brain regions important for vocal learning, a good handful of which were involved in forming connections between neurons. Analysis of genes in other avian vocal learners — parrots and hummingbirds—echoed the finding.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-confirms-bird-songs-related-to-human-speech/

Compare that to what you stated previously:

"Isn't true that humans also have the same genetics for vocalization as do certain vocal learning birds that are not present in non-vocal learning birds nor non-human primates?"--Oncedeceived

Where does it say that the genes are not present in non-vocal learning birds, or in non-human primates?

Why wouldn't it?

It looks like we have a possible test that could differentiate between common ancestry and common design. What are one of the genes, and what are the DNA sequences in the species discussed above?
 
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Loudmouth

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Therefore if genes involved in mammary gland expression were also found in birds, it would be said that the gene was present in synapsids and inherited in both lineages leading to mammals and birds.

Again, this is made up fantasy. Please start presenting things that scientists have done in reality instead of just in your head.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Compare that to what you stated previously:

"Isn't true that humans also have the same genetics for vocalization as do certain vocal learning birds that are not present in non-vocal learning birds nor non-human primates?"--Oncedeceived

Where does it say that the genes are not present in non-vocal learning birds, or in non-human primates?

One of the Dec. 12 papers in Science found there is a consistent set of just over 50 genes that show higher or lower activity in the brains of vocal learning birds and humans. These changes were not found in the brains of birds that do not have vocal learning and of non-human primates that do not speak, according to this Duke team, which was led by Jarvis; Andreas Pfenning, a graduate of the Ph.D. program in computational biology and bioinformatics (CBB); and Alexander Hartemink, professor of computer science, statistical science and biology.


"This means that vocal learning birds and humans are more similar to each other for these genes in song and speech brain areas than other birds and primates are to them," Jarvis said.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/141211142429.htm



It looks like we have a possible test that could differentiate between common ancestry and common design. What are one of the genes, and what are the DNA sequences in the species discussed above?

How so?
 
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Loudmouth

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One of the Dec. 12 papers in Science found there is a consistent set of just over 50 genes that show higher or lower activity in the brains of vocal learning birds and humans. These changes were not found in the brains of birds that do not have vocal learning and of non-human primates that do not speak, according to this Duke team, which was led by Jarvis; Andreas Pfenning, a graduate of the Ph.D. program in computational biology and bioinformatics (CBB); and Alexander Hartemink, professor of computer science, statistical science and biology.


So is it genetics or gene regulation that you are focusing on?

Evolution predicts a nested hierarchy of DNA sequence, not gene regulation. If you are talking about the nested hierarchy, then gene regulation is irrelevant.


"This means that vocal learning birds and humans are more similar to each other for these genes in song and speech brain areas than other birds and primates are to them," Jarvis said.

Very poorly worded by a non-scientific source, which isn't that unusual. Can you find the original scientific peer reviewed paper and see if they claim the DNA sequences are more similar?



You are the one who said that DNA sequences should be more similar between vocal birds and humans than between humans and chimps for the genes being discussed.
 
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Oncedeceived

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So is it genetics or gene regulation that you are focusing on?


Genetics.

Evolution predicts a nested hierarchy of DNA sequence, not gene regulation. If you are talking about the nested hierarchy, then gene regulation is irrelevant.

Genetics.



Very poorly worded by a non-scientific source, which isn't that unusual. Can you find the original scientific peer reviewed paper and see if they claim the DNA sequences are more similar?

It is an actual quote from Jarvis.



You are the one who said that DNA sequences should be more similar between vocal birds and humans than between humans and chimps for the genes being discussed.

When did I say that? I said that the Scientific team said that.
 
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lifepsyop

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That's nice but I said a modern bird with the mammalian gene for teats. I assure you that a population of flightless pelicans walking around with a big ol set of jugs would leave quite a few scientists scratching their heads. It could not be explained through common descent.

You first said a gene, not the actual expressed anatomy.

And it would not be a "flightless pelican" if it had mammary glands. It would be an entirely different animal by definition since animals are defined by their traits.

A "bird" with mammary glands would obviously be interpreted as a completely different lineage than other birds. This lineage may have developed mammary glands independently following a split in the common ancestor of early modern birds. Another option would be revising the current model of bird evolution and placing the lineage that lead to birds closer to therapsids/mammals. Dinosaurian traits may be considered convergent. Similar hypotheses have been proposed by evolutionists in the past based on bird-mammal similarities. This would not falsify common descent.

In any case, it's really lame to lay out an alleged potential falsification like this only after bids have been well studied and no evidence of mammary glands has been found. But this is what evolutionists typically do, they wait until after something has been scrutinized, and only then do they say "well if this were different, evolution would be falsified".

Rest assured that if mammary glands had always been present in birds, early evolutionists would have developed a narrative around that pattern. This is not hypothetical but certain.
 
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Loudmouth

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A "bird" with mammary glands would obviously be interpreted as a completely different lineage than other birds. This lineage may have developed mammary glands independently following a split in the common ancestor of early modern birds.

Then we would expect to see analogous structures instead of homologous ones. For example, no one would think that a butterfly wing is more homologous to an eagle's wing than a gull's wing. We can determine that a gull and eagle wing are homologous structures while an eagle and butterfly wing are analogous structures.

Common design, on the other hand, has zero explanation for the observed nested hierarchy. There is absolutely no reason why we should see a mixture of reptile and mammal features but no examples of a mixture of bird and mammal features in a common designer scenario.

Even more, you are have a massive case of projection. We do observe a nested hierarchy which is evidence for evolution. You try to explain away the evidence, trying to claim that it really doesn't exist when it really does. You then invent completely made up scenarios for reasons why you refuse to accept the evidence. You are doing the very thing that you claim scientists would do, even though they haven't.

In any case, it's really lame to lay out an alleged potential falsification like this only after bids have been well studied and no evidence of mammary glands has been found.

The prediction of matching phylogenies between sequence and morphology was predicted more than 50 years ago, before the data was in.

"It will be determined to what extent the phylogenetic tree, as derived from molecular data in complete independence from the results of organismal biology, coincides with the phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of organismal biology. If the two phylogenetic trees are mostly in agreement with respect to the topology of branching, the best available single proof of the reality of macro-evolution would be furnished. Indeed, only the theory of evolution, combined with the realization that events at any supramolecular level are consistent with molecular events, could reasonably account for such a congruence between lines of evidence obtained independently, namely amino acid sequences of homologous polypeptide chains on the one hand, and the finds of organismal taxonomy and paleontology on the other hand. Besides offering an intellectual satisfaction to some, the advertising of such evidence would of course amount to beating a dead horse. Some beating of dead horses may be ethical, when here and there they display unexpected twitches that look like life."

Emile Zuckerkandl and Linus Pauling, (1965) "Evolutionary Divergence and Convergence in Proteins." in Evolving Genes and Proteins, p. 101.

Rest assured that if mammary glands had always been present in birds, early evolutionists would have developed a narrative around that pattern. This is not hypothetical but certain.

They are still finding new feathered dinosaur fossils. Why wouldn't they also find fossils with feathers and a mammalian middle ear?
 
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Loudmouth

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Genetics.


The nested hierarchy refers to DNA sequence, not gene regulation.



"Well-determined phylogenetic trees inferred from the independent evidence of morphology and molecular sequences match with an extremely high degree of statistical significance."
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#independent_convergence

Genetics.

DNA sequence.


It is an actual quote from Jarvis.

A poorly chosen quote which misleads the reader, as it has misled you.

When did I say that? I said that the Scientific team said that.

Me: "What would the common designer paradigm predict? Would it predict that human and vocal learning birds have DNA that is more similar?"

You: "Why wouldn't it?"

Do you still stand by those words?
 
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crjmurray

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You first said a gene, not the actual expressed anatomy.

And it would not be a "flightless pelican" if it had mammary glands. It would be an entirely different animal by definition since animals are defined by their traits.

A "bird" with mammary glands would obviously be interpreted as a completely different lineage than other birds. This lineage may have developed mammary glands independently following a split in the common ancestor of early modern birds. Another option would be revising the current model of bird evolution and placing the lineage that lead to birds closer to therapsids/mammals. Dinosaurian traits may be considered convergent. Similar hypotheses have been proposed by evolutionists in the past based on bird-mammal similarities. This would not falsify common descent.

In any case, it's really lame to lay out an alleged potential falsification like this only after bids have been well studied and no evidence of mammary glands has been found. But this is what evolutionists typically do, they wait until after something has been scrutinized, and only then do they say "well if this were different, evolution would be falsified".

Rest assured that if mammary glands had always been present in birds, early evolutionists would have developed a narrative around that pattern. This is not hypothetical but certain.

It's my example so if I want it to be a pelican then its a pelican.

I created a thread that deals with this very problem (but not with a pelican). There seems to be a consensus that this scenario would violate the nested hierarchy. We can explain why it violates the nested hierarchy. All you can do is make up imaginary scenarios.
 
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Oncedeceived

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The nested hierarchy refers to DNA sequence, not gene regulation.


I said genetics not gene regulation.


"Well-determined phylogenetic trees inferred from the independent evidence of morphology and molecular sequences match with an extremely high degree of statistical significance."
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#independent_convergence

?

DNA sequence.
Yes?



A poorly chosen quote which misleads the reader, as it has misled you.

How has it misled me?



Me: "What would the common designer paradigm predict? Would it predict that human and vocal learning birds have DNA that is more similar?"

You: "Why wouldn't it?"

Do you still stand by those words?

Why wouldn't it?
 
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Loudmouth

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I said genetics not gene regulation.

The nested hierarchy refers to DNA sequence. Gene regulation is irrelevant to the discussion.


How has it misled me?

You seem to think that they are referring to DNA sequence, when they are not.

Why wouldn't it?

Precisely. If I go through the effort of comparing one of those 55 genes between humans, chimps, and one of the vocal breeds of birds, will you accept the outcome? If the human and chimp gene shares more DNA sequence than the human and vocal bird gene, will you concede that evolution is supported and common design is not?
 
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lifepsyop

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Dodge #1.
Can you understand why a moth wing and bird wing are analogous and not homologous?

For your question to make sense, we first must define what a homologous structure is and how it is identified.

So can you explain the process for positively identifying a homologous structure or not?

It's okay to admit if you can't, you know.
 
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Loudmouth

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For your question to make sense, we first must define what a homologous structure is and how it is identified.

So can you explain the process for positively identifying a homologous structure or not?

It's okay to admit if you can't, you know.

You can't tell if a moth wing and an eagle wing are homologous or not? It's okay to admit it if you can't, you know.

If you can't get something as simple as this right, no wonder you get lost in the field of cladistics.
 
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lifepsyop

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You can't tell if a moth wing and an eagle wing are homologous or not? It's okay to admit it if you can't, you know.

If you can't get something as simple as this right, no wonder you get lost in the field of cladistics.

Third dodge. Thank you for the demonstration.

Loudmouth cannot simply explain how to identify a homologous structure. (if he could have he would have by now)

Isn't that strange? One of the most foundational concepts to Evolution is "Homology" and Loudmouth, one of the most vocal evolution proponents on this forum, can't explain how to identify it.

Now that should really get readers wondering.
 
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Loudmouth

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Third dodge. Thank you for the demonstration.

Loudmouth cannot simply explain how to identify a homologous structure. (if he could have he would have by now)

Isn't that strange? One of the most foundational concepts to Evolution is "Homology" and Loudmouth, one of the most vocal evolution proponents on this forum, can't explain how to identify it.

Now that should really get readers wondering.

Third dodge.

Can you understand why a moth wing and bird wing are analogous and not homologous?
 
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lifepsyop

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It's my example so if I want it to be a pelican then its a pelican.

That's like saying you want a giraffe to be like a turtle but still be a giraffe. It doesn't make any sense. The fact is that animals are identified by their characteristics, so different characteristics would make it a different animal.

Furthermore, the primary thing an evolutionist will do when they discover an animal with unique characteristics is to infer an imaginary evolutionary lineage that gave rise to those characteristics.
 
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