The Myth of Morality

Zeena · Aug 15, 2008

cantata said:
This does not at all explain why only some people have faith. It rather suggests that it is works which are needed in order to be saved.

Every man has a measure of faith.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.

It's WHERE you place your faith that matters.

cantata said:
Why is the faith part needed, if turning from evil is the bit that really matters to God?

Faith is needed [and supplied, by Grace] because there's only One who is sinless, and that is Jesus. Placing your faith in Jesus is the requirement for having Righteousness imputed to you.. Resting in Him [by Grace] and having HIM do the work of God in and through you.

cantata · Aug 15, 2008

jmverville said:
I do not think so... It is a sin called lust. A sin does not necessarily have to be a work.

It seems we are getting into semantics.

I'd rather drop this than press it on. We have the potential for warring over definitions of words and that is about as meaningful as a Barack Obama speech.

But it is important. The question is whether internal acts count as works, and it's an important question, don't you think?

cantata · Aug 15, 2008

Zeena said:
Every man has a measure of faith.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.

It's WHERE you place your faith that matters.

I'm talking about faith in your god and in Jesus. Clearly, not everyone has it.

Zeena said:
Faith is needed [and supplied, by Grace] because there's only One who is sinless, and that is Jesus. Placing your faith in Jesus is the requirement for having Righteousness imputed to you.. Resting in Him [by Grace] and having HIM do the work of God in and through you.

Yet, since no one can choose what to believe, it seems a very unfair criterion for judging people.

Is faith a virtue?

This is the issue you seem to be skirting: if faith is a gift, everyone should be given it, particularly given its importance in being saved - and yet they don't. If it's not a gift, it would appear to be a work, and then it seems like a very strange work to choose as a criterion for being saved; something like trying to be nice to other people seems at least more just.

The Nihilist · Aug 15, 2008

Zeena said:
But you're not looking at Mathew in the context that it is written!

Jesus is speaking OF THOSE WHO HE DID NOT KNOW.

They were NEVER saved to begin with!

Therefore, THEY WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THIER WORKS.

AND fall woefully short!

And be cast alive into the Lake of Fire!!!

2 Peter 2:17
These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved.

Jude 1:13
Wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever.

What? No. A bunch of those judged solely on their works entered heaven. Did you even read the verses?
Moreover, I think it's a creative interpretation on your part to suggest that only nonchristians were judged in that manner. That's not included in the text at all.

Zeena · Aug 15, 2008

cantata said:
But it is important. The question is whether internal acts count as works, and it's an important question, don't you think?

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 9:16-18
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

Zeena · Aug 15, 2008

cantata said:
I'm talking about faith in your god and in Jesus. Clearly, not everyone has it.

Nobody has it except Jesus alone. It's His faith, the faith of God.

cantata said:
Yet, since no one can choose what to believe, it seems a very unfair criterion for judging people.

Romans 9:19-33
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved. And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God. And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved: for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short. And, as Isaiah hath said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had become as Sodom, and had been made like unto Gomorrah.
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

cantata said:
Is faith a virtue?

By Grace, yes.

cantata said:
This is the issue you seem to be skirting: if faith is a gift, everyone should be given it, particularly given its importance in being saved - and yet they don't. If it's not a gift, it would appear to be a work, and then it seems like a very strange work to choose as a criterion for being saved; something like trying to be nice to other people seems at least more just.

I already showed you that the gift has been given, but if you do not open your present, it is useless to you and it will not save you from the wrath of God to come. :o

Ephesians 4:8
This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."

http://www.gracenotebook.com/pub/56

quatona · Aug 15, 2008

So you can´t have faith (only Jesus has faith), Jesus has given it to you (but you don´t have it), you have to open the present (although you don´t have it).
That´s very confusing, to say the least.
The closest thing to a conclusion I can arrive at is:
The work of opening the present that you don´t even have is what gives you salvation.

Zeena · Aug 15, 2008

It's not confusing Quatona;

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

quatona · Aug 15, 2008

Zeena said:
It's not confusing Quatona;

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I don´t see any mentioning of faith in this quote.
There seems to be a lot of figurative speech in this quote. Like, I can´t make any sense of "receiving someone", to begin with.

cantata · Aug 16, 2008

Well, make up your mind, Zeena - either people have faith because God wants them to, or they have faith because they opened a present.

If the former, faith is not a matter of free will, but something bestowed for God's own reasons on whomever he chooses. Whom does he choose? People who do good works? Or does he choose for other reasons? If for other reasons, what is the purpose of virtuous behaviour and all of the moral teaching found in the Bible?

If the latter, faith is a work, and a rather arbitrary one to use as a criterion for salvation.

Zeena · Aug 16, 2008

The "work" needed was done by Christ. That was the whole purpose for Him dying on the cross. There are plenty of verses that tells us this "WORK" for Salvation was once for all for every body; who are willing to ACCEPT what he did for them. There are works we do AFTER Salvation (which are done through the Spirit) but there is NO "works" done to RECEIVE Salvation.

cantata · Aug 16, 2008

Zeena said:
The "work" needed was done by Christ. That was the whole purpose for Him dying on the cross. There are plenty of verses that tells us this "WORK" for salvation was once for all for every body; who are willing to ACCEPT what he did for them. There are works we do AFTER salvation (which are done through the Spirit) but there is NO "works" done to RECEIVE salvation.

Is not accepting salvation a work?

quatona · Aug 16, 2008

Zeena said:
The "work" needed was done by Christ. That was the whole purpose for Him dying on the cross. There are plenty of verses that tells us this "WORK" for Salvation was once for all for every body; who are willing to ACCEPT what he did for them. There are works we do AFTER Salvation (which are done through the Spirit) but there is NO "works" done to RECEIVE Salvation.

Does that mean that for to possess a gift it is not enough to have received it, but you must have unwrapped it in oder to possess it?

What is "salvation"? I was under the impression that it was comparable to, say, "healing". Healing is when you are healed - not when someone has offered you healing.
Are we to constitute "salvation" when it has taken place, or is salvation the offer of salvation? Is a problem solved when it is solved, or is a problem solved when there is an option for it to be solved?
Just trying to make sense of the terminology used here.

The Nihilist · Aug 16, 2008

Zeena said:
The "work" needed was done by Christ. That was the whole purpose for Him dying on the cross. There are plenty of verses that tells us this "WORK" for Salvation was once for all for every body; who are willing to ACCEPT what he did for them. There are works we do AFTER Salvation (which are done through the Spirit) but there is NO "works" done to RECEIVE Salvation.

Have you just not read the account of the last judgment in Matthew? Is this why you seem not to understand the problem? The only people who are saved are those who perform good works. There's nothing about acceptance, or faith, or any of that kind of fru-fru spiritual nonsense. It seems to directly contradict most of christian theology.

Zeena · Aug 16, 2008

cantata said:
Is not accepting salvation a work?

The 'WORK' needed to be done was done by Jesus. You deserved to DIE, and He died in your stead! If you needed works to be saved then die, for THIS is the punishment for sin!

Galatians 5:11-12
Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

quatona said:
Does that mean that for to possess a gift it is not enough to have received it, but you must have unwrapped it in oder to possess it?

In order to receive the gift you must accept the propitiation of Christ for your sins!

quatona said:
What is "salvation"? I was under the impression that it was comparable to, say, "healing". Healing is when you are healed - not when someone has offered you healing.

There only One who is whole, and unless you accept what HE has done for you, there will be NO healing!

Isaiah 1
From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

quatona said:
Are we to constitute "salvation" when it has taken place, or is salvation the offer of salvation?

The offer, if I understand what you're saying correctly.

Rev 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

It is through His death and sacrifice for sin alone that forgiveness is to be HAD.

quatona said:
Is a problem solved when it is solved, or is a problem solved when there is an option for it to be solved?
Just trying to make sense of the terminology used here.

That a rather redundant question, don't you think?

What came first, a chicken or its egg?

RecoveringPhilosopher said:
Have you just not read the account of the last judgment in Matthew? Is this why you seem not to understand the problem? The only people who are saved are those who perform good works.

No, the only people who are saved have ACCEPTED the fact that Jesus died for thier sins. Thier faith in Him is then reckoned to them as Righteousness.

The works of God then FOLLOWS that act.
You cannot walk in the Spirit if He does not Live in you!

RecoveringPhilosopher said:
There's nothing about acceptance, or faith, or any of that kind of fru-fru spiritual nonsense. It seems to directly contradict most of christian theology.

Christian theology is different for the unbeliever than it is for the believer.

They are two different perspectives, for the first, it is the perspective of being under the wrath of God. For the second, under His Mercy.

The Nihilist · Aug 16, 2008

Zeena said:
No, the only people who are saved have ACCEPTED the fact that Jesus died for thier sins. Thier faith in Him is then reckoned to them as Righteousness.

The works of God then FOLLOWS that act.
You cannot walk in the Spirit if He does not Live in you!

Christian theology is different for the unbeliever than it is for the believer.

They are two different perspectives, for the first, it is the perspective of being under the wrath of God. For the second, under His Mercy.

Everything you've said is contradicted by the account of the Last Judgment in Matthew.

cantata · Aug 17, 2008

Zeena said:
The 'WORK' needed to be done was done by Jesus. You deserved to DIE, and He died in your stead! If you needed works to be saved then die, for THIS is the punishment for sin!

Aaaaargh.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.

*gnaws own legs off*

Until you start actually reading people's posts, I'm out of here. Later, Zeena.

Krus · Aug 17, 2008

Zeena said:
It is not a gift from God, but the gift OF God in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Because you refuse Him, who's faith it is!

Zeena, absolutely agree.
God gives this gift to everyone. But not everyone accept it.

The Nihilist · Aug 18, 2008

Krus said:
Zeena, absolutely agree.
God gives this gift to everyone. But not everyone accept it.

Do only those who do good works accept the gift? Because they're the only ones who go to heaven, according to the last judgment in matthew

Zeena · Aug 18, 2008

YOU either accept it or reject it.

It's a FREE choice, your sins are paid for, but forgiveness will NOT be credited to YOUR account unless YOU receive it by Grace, through faith!

The Myth of Morality

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