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Zeena

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I thought we were supposed to look at people's fruits to decide whether or not they were nice people.

The Bible clearly sees fruit as a result of salvation. It makes this point in a number of different ways. It pointedly excludes fruit as a cause of salvation. “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested.” (Romans 3:21) “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righeousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.” (Romans 4:5-6) Many other passages make that same point.
How then does it describe good works? As something only believers can do. “without faith it is impossible to please him.” (Hebrews 11:6) Good works are fruits of faith. For example, in John 15 Jesus tells his disciples that they are clean through the word – v. 3. By abiding in him they will bring forth much fruit – v. 5. Notice that the fruit doesn’t make them clean. Because they are clean they can bear much fruit.

According to the Bible, good works spring out after a person is brought to saving faith. They are expressions of gratitude for what God has done. I do good works not because I think they are a requirement that I need to do in order to be accepted by God, but freely and joyfully because God has already accepted me in Jesus.

Probably no place says it better than Ephesians 2:8-10. “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
We are not saved by works but we are saved to do good works. Keeping that straight is vitally important. Mixing that up is tragic. There is a tremendous difference between a root and fruit – between cause and effect. Don’t make the fruit the root.

http://www.gracenotebook.com/pub/340

Yes, sure. It appears to be the most (if not: only) reasonable method, and even the bible seems to share this opinion.

The Bible tells us that we are saved by Jesus. “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14). It further tells us that our works don’t contribute to our salvation. “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9) Romans chapter 4 cites both the example of Abraham and David who had a righteousness not of works.

But then the Bible goes one step further..

“And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace; otherwise work is no more work.” (Romans 11:6) “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4)


Wow, I think you should win the most complicated answer to a yes or no question award. I did not ask what the rewards of heaven are, I asked if you feel they play a part in the choices that a Christian makes?

Jesus, by His Holy Spirit is the One who plays the part in the choices a yeilding believer makes.

If it's not Him then it's flesh.
 
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cantata

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The Bible clearly sees fruit as a result of salvation. It makes this point in a number of different ways. It pointedly excludes fruit as a cause of salvation.

<snip>

Yes yes, that's quite enough. I know that works are not supposed to be enough to save you. But they are supposed to be an indicator of what's on the inside.
 
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Zeena

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Yes yes, that's quite enough. I know that works are not supposed to be enough to save you. But they are supposed to be an indicator of what's on the inside.
That's good that you know that Cantata!

And yes, they are.

But for a newborn babe in Christ, not [yet] knowing what they've recieved when they've recieved JESUS, works are definately NOT a good indication of Salvation.. :o

John 16:3
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 16:14
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

2 Corinthians 5:15-17
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
 
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Zeena

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You know, I thought I'd take this time to say Zeena scares the crap out of me, and I've been shot at.

Revelation 14:6-7

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

You can TRUST JCook, just as I have!
You have a choice this day!!!The promise of Eternal Life can be yours by reaching out to Jesus in faith!
 
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The Nihilist

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Yes yes, that's quite enough. I know that works are not supposed to be enough to save you. But they are supposed to be an indicator of what's on the inside.

Isn't it odd, then, that the only criterion used to determine who goes to heaven and who goes to hell is good works? At least, that's the case in Matther 25:31-46. Or is Jesus lying?
 
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Zeena

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Isn't it odd, then, that the only criterion used to determine who goes to heaven and who goes to hell is good works? At least, that's the case in Matthew 25:31-46. Or is Jesus lying?


Source --> http://www.gracenotebook.com/pub/220
 
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The Nihilist

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You can say what you want, but in the passage I've cited, God only has two hands, and people are divided by their works alone. There's nothing about sin, nothing about faith, it's just works.
It seems to me that Paul's later claims that faith is primary are irreconcilable with the passage from Matthew
 
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Zeena

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You can say what you want, but in the passage I've cited, God only has two hands, and people are divided by their works alone.
No, you are using one passage of Scripture to qualify the rest based upon what you believe. This is called 'proof-texting' and it is a grievious error when attempting to study the Scripture.

Let Scripture interpret Scripture is the rule of thumb when it comes to understanding the message.

There's nothing about sin, nothing about faith, it's just works.
You seem quite content to exclude the entirety of Scripture in your study.


Source --> http://www.gracenotebook.com/pub/144


It seems to me that Paul's later claims that faith is primary are irreconcilable with the passage from Matthew

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Source --> http://www.gracenotebook.com/pub/108
 
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The Nihilist

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My point is that the verses contradict each other. You've done a fine job of citing those contradicting points, but you've failed to combine them. You have to explain why, in Matthew, God only uses only good works in determining who goes to heaven.

I'm an atheist, dollface. I don't believe any of this.
 
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cantata

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Isn't it odd, then, that the only criterion used to determine who goes to heaven and who goes to hell is good works? At least, that's the case in Matther 25:31-46. Or is Jesus lying?

Heh, I know.

What is faith but a work, anyway?
 
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WorldIsMine

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Can you explain how you're defining "meaningless"?
The statements are devoid of cognitive content. The words, as defined or used commonly, do not form a coherent and non-contradictory statement.

For example, are metaphors meaningless?
Not if they are understood metaphorically, but this is not the claim that moralists make. If they did, they would cease to be moralists.

What about metaphors that people have forgotten are metaphors? (Much of our everyday language is metaphorical.)
I would say that it is more accurate to say that English is idiomatic.

Otherwise we generally agree.
 
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Zeena

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cantata

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Close, but no cigar..

It is not a gift from God, but the gift OF God in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

No, you didn't understand the question.

Why is faith - believing something in a particular way - different from any other kind of work? Why doesn't it count as a work? It's all very well saying works won't save you, but you still have to do something particular in order to be saved. You've just renamed it from "work" to "faith", but it doesn't change the fact that it's a criterion for getting saved (and a really arbitrary one at that - why is believing something the thing you have to do to get saved? It excludes millions of people through no fault of their own).

Because you refuse Him, who's faith it is!

So, hang on, it's God who's supposed to have faith, not me? I'm sure that's not right!
 
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Zeena

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No, you didn't understand the question.
No, but rather, you did not receive the answer.

Why is faith - believing something in a particular way - different from any other kind of work?
Because it's not a work, but a gift.

Why doesn't it count as a work?
Because it's the gift of God in Christ Jesus.

John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

It's all very well saying works won't save you, but you still have to do something particular in order to be saved.


You've just renamed it from "work" to "faith",
No, it is you who have renamed faith as a work. This is not the truth of the matter, for it is the gift of God.

but it doesn't change the fact that it's a criterion for getting saved (and a really arbitrary one at that - why is believing something the thing you have to do to get saved?
How can you receive unless you believe?

If you believe a dillapidated and condemned house will be useless in protecting you from the wind and the rain, will you enter it?

It excludes millions of people through no fault of their own).
The gift is there, and His Name is Jesus, for all who are willing, come.

So, hang on, it's God who's supposed to have faith, not me? I'm sure that's not right!
Not that He's supposed to, but that He does, because He is.

Psalm 146
Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God: Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever: Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners: The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous: The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down. The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
 
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cantata

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Because it's not a work, but a gift.

Then why doesn't everyone have it, if the ability to believe this particular thing is a gift rather than a work? Why are some (most) people excluded?
 
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Zeena

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Then why doesn't everyone have it, if the ability to believe this particular thing is a gift rather than a work? Why are some (most) people excluded?
John 3:20-21
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.
I must be being a little bit thick here, but what exactly is "a work"?
Something that is done. Could be something God does, or you.

Romans 1:17-19
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him. And without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.
 
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