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the morning star

Discussion in 'Bibliology & Hermeneutics' started by Defender of the Faith 777, Nov 14, 2002.

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  1. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

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  2. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

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    Filo,
    The point that I am trying to make [while taking of a small child.... excuse me if I appeared scattered] is that Jesus used Father as well as substituting Lord [Adonai] for the tetragrammation. Why would he do this if it was his will that we know 'The Name'
     
  3. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

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    Romans 3
    1 What then is the superiority of the Jew? Or what the profit of circumcision?
    2 Much every way. For first, indeed, that they were entrusted with the Words of God.
    3 For what if some did not believe? Will not their unbelief nullify the faith of God?
    4 Let it not be! But let God be true, and every man a liar; even as it has been written, "That You should be justified in Your words, and will overcome in Your being judged." LXX-Psa. 50:6; MT-Psa. 51:4

    The reason that I have posted this scripture is to illustrate a point. Verse two says that the Jews were entrusted with the words of God. The Name YHVH, was spoke in the temple once a year on the High Holy Day [Day of Atonement] by the High Priest. The name Adonai was used at all other times. If I remember correctly, the name was not spoken after 3ce and the correct pronunciation was forgotten. The early 'scholars' took the vowel pointings from Adonai and combined them with YHVH which was rendered as Jehovah. Now they have decided that the 'new' correct name is Yahweh. Some of the churches are now singing songs which chant the name "Yahweh". What do the Jews, the chosen oracles of God say. They do not pronounce it, and substitute Adonai [Lord] or HaShem [The Name]. God chose the Jews to be the writers of the OT as well as the NT. Salvation came through a Jewish Messiah, and his apostiles were all Jews as well. God chose to trust the Jews in many areas. They do not speak 'The Name'. I think I will stay with "Father".
     
  4. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    Enjoy that time with the young one! I just talked to our grandkids earlier tonight. They are 7, 6, and 5, but live 1100 miles away. Grandpa misses the munchkins.

    ------

    Perhaps two points should be made. Jesus doesn't "change" YHWH to ADONAI - that would have happened in the Greek translation. In Greek there is no way to distinguish the YHWH and ADONAI. because both would be translated into Greek with KURIOS.

    Also, what language was Jesus speaking to his disciples? We really don't know, most likely it was Aramaic. However, the text that records the events and speech is written in Greek. Often the NT writers follow the LXX rendering of OT passages, which means that both YHWH and ADONAI are the same - namely KURIOS.

    So, considering one of your examples: Matthew 3:3 which BTW refers to Isaiah 40:3, not Hosea 11:1. In the Hebrew it is "way of YHWH" but in the LXX it is "way of KURIOU" (genitive form). So what Matthew notes as fulfillment of the prophecy of Isa 40:3 is taken from the LXX translation. So also the parallels in Mark 1:3 and John 1:23.

    Regarding the four passages you mentioned when Jesus addresses God, he does use "Father" but he is not quoting the OT at that point. Notice also that he is speaking in relationship to the another person of the trinity. Thus, as Son he is addressing his Father, not by name, but by relationship title. In the 40 years that I knew my father (before he died), I many times called him "Daddy" or "Father" or "Dad" - never did I call him by his first name. But that doesn't dismiss the importance of the name in understanding who he was. In fact, since his death more than a decade ago, I have learned so much about him that I never knew, but it was because of his identity as a "name" rather than his relationship to me as "father."

    Granted, Jesus teaches his disciples to say "Father, in heaven..." but that doesn't deny nor stop the use of his name. In fact, the NT authors often note that very fact:

    "Blessed is he who calls on the Name of the Lord."

    And notice in Exodus 20:24
    in every place where I cause My name to be remembered, I will come to you and bless you.

    Something about that name ...
     
  5. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

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    Lutheran
    Except that Paul says the "unbelieving Jews" seek God but in ignorance. We can't use those Jews who do not believe in Jesus as Messiah to guide us into how we should or should not refer to God, since "they do so in ignorance" (Romans 10).
     
  6. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

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    Filo,

    This has been an interesting discussion, and I have enjoyed it. We have now arrived back to the point where we started where I will ask once again. What definitively is God's name? [YHVH] Can we say with certainty that it is Yahweh? Thre are many still who insist that it is definately Jehovah. Is Yahweh now 100% accurate like Jehovah was once thought? Or is it 50% or maybe 20%. This to me resembles confusion. We are told in the word that our God is not a God of confusion. I still feel that the rendering of YHVH as Yahweh is just the 'wisdom of men'
     
  7. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

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    Filo,
    In an earlier post you stated:

    "A crucial text that would have added to your suggestion, Luke 20:41-44, in which Jesus quotes Ps. 110, Jesus does not use "Father" for the tetragrammata. Of all places that could have been an ideal time for Jesus to make the point that you make. But Jesus did not"

    This was a good point, and I thank you for pointing that out.

    Now I want to review some other points concerning that passage:

    NIV Luke 20:41-44
    41Then Jesus said to them, "How is it that they say the Christ[4] is the Son of David? 42David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: " 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 43until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." '[5] 44David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?"


    KJV Luke 20:41-44
    Luke 20:41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
    Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    Luke 20:44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

    As you can see, in the passage that you cited as a crucial text, the word LORD is capitalized in the KJV which according to the translation 'code' represents YHVH.
    It is not, however capitalized in the NIV version and is shown as Lord signifying Adonai.

    Now, let's look at how another OT/NT passage spoken by Jesus and how it was translated:

    Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

    Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD

    Let us now observe that in the OT passage it was written LORD with capital letters signifying YHVH

    When he qouted this very same pagssage in the NT the same word was written as Lord with small letters signifying Adonai.

    Same translators wrote it as LORD in Luke. Obviously they were trying to illustrate something different between LORD and Lord in the passages.
     
  8. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    Yes, I have enjoyed the discussion. In fact, I am expanding my examination of HA-SHEM (name). I noted these in my pre-worship meditation today: Psalm 34:3, Isaiah 52:6, Jeremiah 32:18.

    Regarding the NIV and "capitalization, that is an editorial decision. But keep in mind that the Greek text has KURIOS. The way that the editors of the KJV text handled it was to use the English convention for the OT translation. Some translations do that, some do not. In either case, it is the responsibility of the Bible student to cover the references and original texts.

    Regarding how to pronounce the tetragrammat, I am more comfortable with Yahweh than any other "solution" proposed. I think it is wrong to not use his name, and that we short-change ourselves and lose the richness and fullness of the revelation of God's name by substituting either "Lord" or "Father" for every occurrence of YHWH.

    I will continue to use Yahweh. :)
     
  9. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

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    Filo,

    In an earlier post I stated:

    What do the Jews, the chosen oracles of God say. They do not pronounce it, and substitute Adonai [Lord] or HaShem [The Name]. God chose the Jews to be the writers of the OT as well as the NT. Salvation came through a Jewish Messiah, and his apostiles were all Jews as well. God chose to trust the Jews in many areas. They do not speak 'The Name'.

    Your response was:

    Except that Paul says the "unbelieving Jews" seek God but in ignorance. We can't use those Jews who do not believe in Jesus as Messiah to guide us into how we should or should not refer to God, since "they do so in ignorance" (Romans 10).

    When I made my above statement, I was refering to Jewish Believers also known as Messianic Jews. They do not speak The Name, and the 'Complete Jewish Bible' [David Stern], a Bible translation that is used by many Messianics renders the Tetragrammation as Adonai as well.
     
  10. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

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    Thanks for clarifying that. :)
     
  11. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

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    E
     
  12. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Note that the KJV translators put a footnote in for this verse in Isaiah saying "or daystarre", but the translation footnotes are not included in most (all?) modern editions of the KJV. If you look at some facsimilies of the original editions from the 17th century, there are a number of footnotes (including this one).

    -Chris
     
  13. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    It can also be translated, "I exist because I exist."
     
  14. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    The NIV is not a Bible. 
     
  15. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

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    Good call [here comes the missles]
     
  16. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    or the buzzards.
     
  17. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    Before any conflict arises, please take heed of the forum rules:


    [noflame][/noflame]
     
  18. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +3
    Christian
    "MORNING STAR" (NIV) is a wrong translation because:

    a) "STAR" (3556 Kokab) appears nowhere in Isaiah 14:12.

    b) "MORNING" (7837 shachar) appears only once in v.12, (son of the morning), not twice as NIV claims.

    c) "LUCIFER" (1966 heylel) comes from the root word "to shine" (1984 halal), and means "shining one" or "bright one".

    d) The Septuagint translates it as "How has Lucifer, that rose in the morning, fallen from heaven".


    Therefore, let us reject this blasphemous translation that makes Christ the cause of sin.

    &nbsp;
     
  19. Higher Truth

    Higher Truth Active Member

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    Youth with a vision...I like that.
     
  20. Ioustinos

    Ioustinos Veteran

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    The word Lucifer is a Latin word and thus it has its own meaning.
     
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