The more I try to understand Christianity the more confused I get

[fhansen]

There is only one church.... It is made up of every single human who accepts Christ as their savior and believes on His name and follows Him... It is made up of all of those people who hold this view.. no matter if they are RC, Pentecostal, Baptist, Anglican, or hold no affiliation what so ever.

Christ started a way of life, a following, not a religion or a denomination.

ok don't read it. There's no need when we've got everything figured out I guess. OTOH you do not have a good handle at all on the RCC position as you stated it, so a little more education isn't always a bad thing

 

[PaulCyp1]

Yes, denominations are and always have been a source of widespread confusion and untruth in the few hundred years they have existed, as shown by the fact that the teaching of each denomination contradicts the teaching of the others, and truth cannot contradict truth. Denominations are a direct violation of the plainly stated will of Jesus Christ concerning His followers, which was and still is "That they all may be ONE, even as I and My heavenly Father are ONE". Which is why He founded ONE Church, said it was to remain ONE, and promised that ONE Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Which is why that ONE Church (which includes well over half of all Christians) remains ONE in belief, ONE in teaching, ONE in worship, ONE in biblical understanding throughout the world after 2,000 years, while Protestantism continues to fragment into more and more conflicting denominations teaching more and more contradictory beliefs every year. You just can't beat God's plan.

 

[JacksBratt]

ok don't read it. There's no need when we've got everything figured out I guess. OTOH you do not have a good handle at all on the RCC position as you stated it, so a little more education isn't always a bad thing

I'm just going on the fact that several RC members of this forum told me in no uncertain terms that, in the eyes of the RCC.. no protestant will ever be able to achieve salvation.. No person.. actually, unless they join the RCC will be able to get to eternal life...

Why would I just want to read more on it.. when the bible itself contradicts that nonsense. I will never be convinced that such nonsense is true... Christ died for all humanity.. not only those who happen to be born to parents of a certain denomination.. or decide to join said denomination...

When we die... and stand at the feet of Christ.. He is not going to ask if you were RC... or Pentecostal... or Baptist.... or if you went to confession... or said the rosary...

He's going to ask... "Did you believe in Me"? PERIOD.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes, denominations are and always have been a source of widespread confusion and untruth in the few hundred years they have existed, as shown by the fact that the teaching of each denomination contradicts the teaching of the others, and truth cannot contradict truth. Denominations are a direct violation of the plainly stated will of Jesus Christ concerning His followers, which was and still is "That they all may be ONE, even as I and My heavenly Father are ONE". Which is why He founded ONE Church, said it was to remain ONE, and promised that ONE Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Which is why that ONE Church (which includes well over half of all Christians) remains ONE in belief, ONE in teaching, ONE in worship, ONE in biblical understanding throughout the world after 2,000 years, while Protestantism continues to fragment into more and more conflicting denominations teaching more and more contradictory beliefs every year. You just can't beat God's plan.

You started off so well..

What you fail to realize.. is that the RCC is also "a denomination" and has issues, errors in it's concepts etc.

The "ONE" church of which you speak.. is not "half of all Christians".. It is, in fact, 100% of all Christians..

All of whom are trying to worship the same messiah. The same Christ. The same Lord of all Lords.. the best way they know how..

All religions and religious denominations have concepts that are wrong.. Ideals that are "man made"..

Christ did not come here to create a religion...

Christ does not want "denominations"

Christ wants a relationship with you... He wants you to shine so that the rest of the world says "I want.. what they have".....

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Nah, not all denominations list the commandments the same and that's a of matter splitting hairs: holier than thou nonsense.

It happens primarily with misinterpretations of Scripture, which is why so many can't even agree on whether or not the commandments/law must be obeyed while the ancient churches all teach that it must be. The SDA Church also rightly teaches that man is still obligated to be righteous under the New Covenant. And the RCC, for its part, teaches that those outside the church can still be saved. I tend to think, reading SDA literature, that your church is far more priggish than many churches, and especially in its viscous anti-Catholic writings.

Sheez. Yes, the Catholic Church, the early church IOW, broke bread and worshiped on the Lord's Day and at some point in practice that became the day, even though the sabbath was also still observed early on. And at some point later the Sunday practice was formalized. Yes, God's church can do that, because God the Holy Spirit can do that. The sabbath law, along with all laws, are for men, not the other way around and they serve men to the extent that we observe and fulfill them by the Spirit. Again, Sola Scriptura adherents, not allowing for the benefit of the church's lived experience, basically go by their own opinions and best-guess theology rather than by the gospel as received by the church at the beginning. Then many of those same churches accept the eastern and western Catholic Church's conciliar decisions such as those hammered out at Nicaea on the Trinity and those regarding the canon of New Testament Scripture, at least, and the decrees on grace at the second council of Orange, to name a few. All of our heritage traces itself through the one church that Christ established and if not for that church Christianity probably would hardly even be known today.

That's the problem- You are not supposed to change anything in the Bible

Revelations 22:18,19
A Warning
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Especially God's law
Revelations 22:14
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

When man or a Church starts tinkering and making subtle changes to the Bible and teaches others to so, the Bible is clear on those consequences.

Matthew 5:19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Holy Spirit is not going to lead anyone away from the teachings of the Bible. That is a Spirit but not one from God.

 

[fhansen]

That's the problem- You are not supposed to change anything in the Bible

Revelations 22:18,19
A Warning
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Especially God's law
Revelations 22:14
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

When man or a Church starts tinkering and making subtle changes to the Bible and teaches others to so, the Bible is clear on those consequences.

Matthew 5:19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Holy Spirit is not going to lead anyone away from the teachings of the Bible. That is a Spirit but not one from God.

It’s what the early church did. Sunday became the central day for Christians, in both the east and the west- while still as a persecuted group. And supported by the early fathers. Here are some relevant teachings on it:

1166 "By a tradition handed down from the apostles which took its origin from the very day of Christ's Resurrection, the Church celebrates the Paschal mystery every seventh day, which day is appropriately called the Lord's Day or Sunday." The day of Christ's Resurrection is both the first day of the week, the memorial of the first day of creation, and the "eighth day," on which Christ after his "rest" on the great sabbath inaugurates the "day that the Lord has made," the "day that knows no evening." The Lord's Supper is its center, for there the whole community of the faithful encounters the risen Lord who invites them to his banquet:

The Lord's day, the day of Resurrection, the day of Christians, is our day. It is called the Lord's day because on it the Lord rose victorious to the Father. If pagans call it the "day of the sun," we willingly agree, for today the light of the world is raised, today is revealed the sun of justice with healing in his rays. St Jerome

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death. St Ignatius of Antioch

2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week." Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath, it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead. St Justin

2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It’s what the early church did. Sunday became the central day for Christians, in both the east and the west- while still as a persecuted group. And supported by the early fathers. Here are some relevant teachings on it:

1166 "By a tradition handed down from the apostles which took its origin from the very day of Christ's Resurrection, the Church celebrates the Paschal mystery every seventh day, which day is appropriately called the Lord's Day or Sunday." The day of Christ's Resurrection is both the first day of the week, the memorial of the first day of creation, and the "eighth day," on which Christ after his "rest" on the great sabbath inaugurates the "day that the Lord has made," the "day that knows no evening." The Lord's Supper is its center, for there the whole community of the faithful encounters the risen Lord who invites them to his banquet:

The Lord's day, the day of Resurrection, the day of Christians, is our day. It is called the Lord's day because on it the Lord rose victorious to the Father. If pagans call it the "day of the sun," we willingly agree, for today the light of the world is raised, today is revealed the sun of justice with healing in his rays. St Jerome

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death. St Ignatius of Antioch

2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week." Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath, it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead. St Justin

2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ

You hit the nail on the head- its what the Church (Catholic to be specific) changed, its not from God. God started the 4th Commandment with "Remember".

Remember the Sabbath-day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath-day and hallowed it. Exod 20: 8-11.

I would rather follow God and what the Bible teaches than what man changed which is clearly prohibited in the Bible. No man or Church or Institution is above God.

Sabbath Is a Day of Rest and Worship | Sabbath Truth

 

[fhansen]

You hit the nail on the head- its what the Church (Catholic to be specific) changed, its not from God.

"Catholic", as I'm sure you know, means "universal", and covers the entire church that Christ established even as the term has been more commonly used formally for the western church. So yes, that universal church, not just in the west or in Rome, observed the Lord's Day as the most important day of the week, and it became the way sabbath was observed as well. Yes, God is not subjugated to His own commandants and can cause such a change by which Christians continued to fulfill the law by the Spirit.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

"Catholic", as I'm sure you know, means "universal", and covers the entire church that Christ established even as the term has been more commonly used formally for the western church. So yes, that universal church, not just in the west or in Rome, observed the Lord's Day as the most important day of the week, and it became the way sabbath was observed as well. Yes, God is not subjugated to His own commandants and can cause such a change by which Christians continued to fulfill the law by the Spirit.

I do not agree that Christ established the Catholic church. Maybe that's what the Pope teaches, but that doesn't make it true. God says to "Do" His Commandments. We are saved by Grace, but that does not mean we no longer have to obey Gods law.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

 

[timothyu]

Christ wants a relationship with you...

Don't forget He stressed a relationship with each other. He cannot relate to us otherwise.

 

[timothyu]

Yes, God is not subjugated to His own commandants and can cause such a change by which Christians continued to fulfill the law by the Spirit.

Amazing how man likes to use God to justify their actions rather than change themselves to suit His. Such a subtle manoeuvre away from the Kingdom and back into the world of man.

 

[timothyu]

I do not agree that Christ established the Catholic church. Maybe that's what the Pope teaches, but that doesn't make it true.

The now street legal church sold it's soul back to the world of man 1700 odd years ago when it re-aligned itself with the world of man and the Roman Empire (not Rome for they lost the civil war and it was centuries before they could again claimed they were the head honchos). The Kingdom and teachings/Gospel of Jesus were forsaken in order to build a kingdom of their own in tandem with the world of man, built upon the same foundations as the other institutions of man. Jesus taught a way of life while man continues to build religion in their own image.

 

[CaspianSails]

Perhaps it will help to know that there are certain doctrines that are fundamental to the faith of a believer. It is sad that in many, many churches they are not taught. Instead preaching is based on experience, experiential preaching it is called. It is worthless. God is much more than my experiences or your experiences or the pastor's experience. A faith based on experience is limited and limits God. God is limitless. He is the creator of all we see and all we know and all we cannot see. He created life, He sustains life. Without Him there is nothing and before He spoke creation there was nothing. God is not created, God is not limited by His creation. God is always. Knowing the basics of what it means to be a Christian is enough to sustain faith. It is summed up in the Apostles Creed commonly as seen here.

Let me point out one line that causes some to stumble in relation to the Apostle's Creed. The holy catholic Church is not the Roman Catholic Church. The word catholic means universal and is accepted to mean the collection of all believers who are now alive everywhere on earth. This is a summation of what every Christian must believe. It is the basic essence and nature of God and the Gospel of Christ. There is a good book out that gives much more detail and delves into some issues with some modern day churches as they have moved from Christianity into some other gospel. It is called The Apostles Creed: Discovering Authentic Christianity in an Age of Counterfeits, written by R Albert Mohler Jr. If what you are taught is in contradiction to the statements of this ancient creed, then I would give them a lot of scrutiny. To be clear this was not written by the Apostles but was recited and passed down through every generation since it was written, around 400AD by best estimates orally along with the Ten Commandments and the Lord's Prayer. These three items were the articles of faith and practice by many Christians through many centuries. Bibles were not available to average men and women until very recent in history. The recitation of these items along with the oral tradition of what they mean were the basis of Christianity for many of those who came before us. Today we have easy access, in the western world at least, to Biblical translations which give much more detail. But the words above were what many before us have based their faith on and what they were martyred for. When asked what do you believe, do you know? Many believe more but all must believe this as a minimum. Even those before us were taught more when teachers were available where they lived, which was typically short periods of time for many.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Perhaps it will help to know that there are certain doctrines that are fundamental to the faith of a believer. It is sad that in many, many churches they are not taught. Instead preaching is based on experience, experiential preaching it is called. It is worthless. God is much more than my experiences or your experiences or the pastor's experience. A faith based on experience is limited and limits God. God is limitless. He is the creator of all we see and all we know and all we cannot see. He created life, He sustains life. Without Him there is nothing and before He spoke creation there was nothing. God is not created, God is not limited by His creation. God is always. Knowing the basics of what it means to be a Christian is enough to sustain faith. It is summed up in the Apostles Creed commonly as seen here.

Let me point out one line that causes some to stumble in relation to the Apostle's Creed. The holy catholic Church is not the Roman Catholic Church. The word catholic means universal and is accepted to mean the collection of all believers who are now alive everywhere on earth. This is a summation of what every Christian must believe. It is the basic essence and nature of God and the Gospel of Christ. There is a good book out that gives much more detail and delves into some issues with some modern day churches as they have moved from Christianity into some other gospel. It is called The Apostles Creed: Discovering Authentic Christianity in an Age of Counterfeits, written by R Albert Mohler Jr. If what you are taught is in contradiction to the statements of this ancient creed, then I would give them a lot of scrutiny. To be clear this was not written by the Apostles but was recited and passed down through every generation since it was written, around 400AD by best estimates orally along with the Ten Commandments and the Lord's Prayer. These three items were the articles of faith and practice by many Christians through many centuries. Bibles were not available to average men and women until very recent in history. The recitation of these items along with the oral tradition of what they mean were the basis of Christianity for many of those who came before us. Today we have easy access, in the western world at least, to Biblical translations which give much more detail. But the words above were what many before us have based their faith on and what they were martyred for. When asked what do you believe, do you know? Many believe more but all must believe this as a minimum. Even those before us were taught more when teachers were available where they lived, which was typically short periods of time for many.

Jesus did not descend into hell, he rested. This part was later added to the Creed and not part of the original. Jesus never went to Hell. I am sorry, where do people come up with this stuff.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Don't forget He stressed a relationship with each other. He cannot relate to us otherwise.

This is what the Bible says:
Mathew 36-39
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'

 

[fhansen]

I do not agree that Christ established the Catholic church. Maybe that's what the Pope teaches, but that doesn't make it true. God says to "Do" His Commandments. We are saved by Grace, but that does not mean we no longer have to obey Gods law.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

The term universal church was used at least since the second century. In any case, distinguishing the earlier church from the Catholic Church, aka the Roman Catholic Church, is a favorite pastime of many, especially since the Reformation and generally for the purpose of distinguishing their particular theology from that of the big bad carnal Catholic Church. Some Protestants beginning 500 or so years ago, and then later, 150 or so years ago with the JWs, SDAs, and Mormons, all use many of the same arguments, from Scripture (even as the doctrine of Sola Scriptura opened the door to widespread differences among its own adherents) combined with often conveniently loose readings or pop-revisions of history and sometimes extra-biblical revelations. They just know the right way as they valiantly strive to revive the true faith that was somehow lost for the last 1500-1850 years until they exclusively and fortunately came along (except for the "remnant", of course, that some refer to even as as they identify that group differently).

We are saved by Grace, but that does not mean we no longer have to obey Gods law.

Amen. And it should be noted that the ancient churches are not even close to anti-nomianism as some Protestants are or tend towards being. In the EO and Catholic faith, for example, obedience of the commandments are necessary even if that obedience is now meant to come a new way, by the Spirit and not by our own efforts. But the Church knows that we still need to be cognizant of that obligation, so we still need to hear the law in the form of the decalogue. If the church were to waffle about, say, the morality of murder, adultery, or theft, I might find your position a bit more tenable at least. But the Church doesn't stop there; she explains and expands on the meaning and application of those commandments, knowing, for example, that abortion amounts to the taking of innocent human life as well and steadfastly taking a stand against it even as many non-Catholic Christian Churches fail to do so in modern times.

The change from Saturday to Sunday day of rest and worship (even though Saturday Sabbath is still practiced to some extent alongside of Sunday in some areas of the world) had its seeds at the beginnings of our faith when believers gathered and broke bread on the Lord's Day-with that practice continuing on as early fathers attest. Scripture, alone, cannot serve to inform us just how the Church is meant to be or how it should look today-that's all speculation and is nearly tantamount to believing that our own lives must follow a script, instead of playing itself out with whatever twists and turns life may have to offer. We don't call the shots, and God doesn't dance to anyone else's tune.

 

[fhansen]

Amazing how man likes to use God to justify their actions rather than change themselves to suit His. Such a subtle manoeuvre away from the Kingdom and back into the world of man.

Such obvious and non-subtle speculation. Do you observe the Sabbath as the Law required?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The term universal church was used at least since the second century. In any case, distinguishing the earlier church from the Catholic Church, aka the Roman Catholic Church, is a favorite pastime of many, especially since the Reformation and generally for the purpose of distinguishing their particular theology from that of the big bad Catholic Church. Some Protestants beginning 500 or so years ago, and then later, 150 or so years ago, the JWs, SDAs, and Mormons, all use many of the same arguments, from Scripture (even as the doctrine of Sola Scriptura opened the door to widespread differences among its own adherents) combined with often conveniently loose readings or pop-revisions of history and sometimes extra-biblical revelations. They just know the right way as they valiantly strive to revive the true faith that was somehow lost for the last 1500-1850 years until they fortunately came along (except for the "remnant", of course, that some refer to even as as they identify that group differently).

Amen. And it should be noted that the ancient churches are not even close to anti-nomianism as some Protestants are or tend towards being. In the EO and Catholic faith, for example, obedience of the commandments are necessary even if that obedience is to now meant to come a new way, by the Spirit and not by our own efforts. But the Church knows that we still need to be cognizant of that obligation, so we still need to hear the law in the form of the decalogue. If the church were to waffle about, say the morality of murder, adultery, or theft, I might find your position a bit more tenable at least. But the Church doesn't stop there; she explains and expands on the meaning and application of those commandments, knowing, for example, that abortion amounts to the taking of innocent human life as well and steadfastly taking a stand against it even as many non-Catholic Christian Churches fail to do so in modern times.

The change from Saturday to Sunday day of rest and worship (even though Saturday Sabbath is still practiced to some extent alongside of Sunday in some areas of the world) had its seeds at the beginnings of our faith when believers gathered and broke bread on the Lord's Day-with that practice continuing on as early fathers attest. Scripture, alone, cannot serve to inform us just how the Church is meant to be or how it should look today-that's all speculation and is nearly tantamount to believing that our own lives must follow a script, instead of playing itself out with whatever twists and turns life may have to offer. We don't call the shots, and God doesn't dance to anyone else's tune.

Agree we do not call the shots, God does. That's why we can not change Gods laws, we can not change God's sabbath or anything that is written in the Bible.

Scripture should be our only source of information. We should all go to Church to receive further blessings, but if a Church is not teaching what the Bible teaches, you should be very concerned. A church is not going to save you, the Pope is not going to save you, only God can save you and He gave all of us the Holy Bible as a manual for our life. If your church is tinkering with the Commandments, or other scriptures to suit the Institution it is serving man not God. The Bible is very clear on this.

God blessed the seventh-day and made it Holy. God never made the first day of the week Holy. Breaking bread with His disciples does not mean He made that day Holy or blessed it.

Sabbath Is a Day of Rest and Worship | Sabbath Truth
7 Facts About the Seventh Day | Sabbath Truth
100 Amazing Facts About The Sabbath and Sunday | Sabbath Truth

I don't think we are going to agree on this subject but, I wish you blessings and best wishes.

 

[fhansen]

I don't think we are going to agree on this subject but, I wish you blessings and best wishes.

And you as well.

 

[timothyu]

uch obvious and non-subtle speculation.

Speculation. Seriously? Defense of the world of man is useless. And as a side note to declare the early universal church as having anything to do with Rome is false. Constantine defeat Rome in their civil war and took over the empire basing the new church which he formulated in Constantinople, not Rome. Anything before that consisting of all the territorial Christina war lords was unified in his new church and were individual no more. Anything after that needed to break away in order to become self promoting once again.