The Moral Wars

[disciple Clint]

You've always been a secular nation. It's like pregnancy. You can't be 'much more pregnant' and yoj can't be 'much more secular'. You're either a secular nation or a theocracy.

There can be no doubt that our founding fathers were Christians and many of the laws, documents, and concepts that are fundamental to this nation are Christian or based on Christian concepts. Our nation was blessed by God from its inception, I have concerns that we are in jeopardy of no longer being a blessed nation.

 

[Bradskii]

There can be no doubt that our founding fathers were Christians and many of the laws, documents, and concepts that are fundamental to this nation are Christian or based on Christian concepts. Our nation was blessed by God from its inception, I have concerns that we are in jeopardy of no longer being a blessed nation.

The concepts that you talk of are not soley Christian. You have no rights to them. Even the one command that Jesus gave us over all others - the golden rule, existed aeons before Christianity. And is common even where Christianity never had any influence. So please don't try to kid me that Christians 'own' morality. They were pretty late to the party as it was.

Which is all completely incidental in any case. Because the US is a secular society. It's even enshrined in your constitution. So my argument stands. Please feel free to refute it.

 

[disciple Clint]

The concepts that you talk of are not soley Christian. You have no rights to them. Even the one command that Jesus gave us over all others - the golden rule, existed aeons before Christianity. And is common even where Christianity never had any influence. So please don't try to kid me that Christians 'own' morality. They were pretty late to the party as it was.

Which is all completely incidental in any case. Because the US is a secular society. It's even enshrined in your constitution. So my argument stands. Please feel free to refute it.

"For much of American history, the U.S. Supreme Court and various state courts have characterized the United States as a ‘‘Christian nation.’’ In recent years, however, courts have generally stopped making such references, and some justices and judges have expressly sought to distance themselves from these earlier proclamations.

During the nineteenth century, the Supreme Court issued several opinions in which it referred to the United States as a Christian nation." Concept of ‘‘Christian Nation’’ in American Jurisprudence

 

[disciple Clint]

The concepts that you talk of are not soley Christian. You have no rights to them. Even the one command that Jesus gave us over all others - the golden rule, existed aeons before Christianity. And is common even where Christianity never had any influence. So please don't try to kid me that Christians 'own' morality. They were pretty late to the party as it was.

Which is all completely incidental in any case. Because the US is a secular society. It's even enshrined in your constitution. So my argument stands. Please feel free to refute it.

Even the one command that Jesus gave us over all others - the golden rule, existed aeons before Christianity.

Please feel free to provide your evidence for this statement.

 

[Bradskii]

"For much of American history, the U.S. Supreme Court and various state courts have characterized the United States as a ‘‘Christian nation.’’ In recent years, however, courts have generally stopped making such references, and some justices and judges have expressly sought to distance themselves from these earlier proclamations.

During the nineteenth century, the Supreme Court issued several opinions in which it referred to the United States as a Christian nation." Concept of ‘‘Christian Nation’’ in American Jurisprudence

Again, totally irrelevant when we are talking about what influence each person has when voting. You are a member of a society which is secular. Otherwise you'd be in a theocracy. Which you are patently not. It matters nothing at all whether the populace are Chistian, Jew, atheist, Muslim or adherents of the FSM. The laws are not determined by Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Jewish religious beliefs. They are secular laws. And the fact that they may match the religious views of any given religion is completely and utterly irrelevant.

 

[Bradskii]

Please feel free to provide your evidence for this statement.

I can't believe you'd ask such a question without first checking yourself. Not only does that exhibit your lack of knowledge but it also points to a disinclination that you have for basic research.

'It is not, however, peculiar to Christianity. Its negative form is to be found in Tob. 4:15, in the writings of the two great Jewish scholars Hillel (1st century BC) and Philo of Alexandria (1st centuries BC and AD), and in the Analects of Confucius (6th and 5th centuries BC). It also appears in one form or another in the writings of Plato, Aristotle, Isocrates, and Seneca.' Golden Rule | ethical precept

It also appears in Egyption texts going back nearly 7,000 years.

Maybe Jesus was familiar with ancient Egyptian philosophy or maybe He read some Confucious. Who knows...

And I think that it's a given that the concept certainly predates any written evidence. In fact its the very basis of reciprocal altruism which is found throughout the natural world.

 

[disciple Clint]

Again, totally irrelevant when we are talking about what influence each person has when voting. You are a member of a society which is secular. Otherwise you'd be in a theocracy. Which you are patently not. It matters nothing at all whether the populace are Chistian, Jew, atheist, Muslim or adherents of the FSM. The laws are not determined by Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Jewish religious beliefs. They are secular laws. And the fact that they may match the religious views of any given religion is completely and utterly irrelevant.

My point was that we started out as a nation based on Christian values, we have become a secular nation as time has gone by, I see this as being a decline in our values as a nation

 

[Bradskii]

My point was that we started out as a nation based on Christian values, we have become a secular nation as time has gone by, I see this as being a decline in our values as a nation

Completely irrelevant to the what's being discussed. Which is what influence religion has and should have within a currently secular nation.

If you think that religious views should hold sway then you'd need to be prepared to accept, for example, Sharia law. But something tells me that you'd only want your religious views to be prevelant.

Feel free to deny it. But I think you'd have some difficulty. You even have a problem coming to terms with the fact that you live in a secular state.

 

[disciple Clint]

I can't believe you'd ask such a question without first checking yourself. Not only does that exhibit your lack of knowledge but it also points to a disinclination that you have for basic research.

'It is not, however, peculiar to Christianity. Its negative form is to be found in Tob. 4:15, in the writings of the two great Jewish scholars Hillel (1st century BC) and Philo of Alexandria (1st centuries BC and AD), and in the Analects of Confucius (6th and 5th centuries BC). It also appears in one form or another in the writings of Plato, Aristotle, Isocrates, and Seneca.' Golden Rule | ethical precept

It also appears in Egyption texts going back nearly 7,000 years.

Maybe Jesus was familiar with ancient Egyptian philosophy or maybe He read some Confucious. Who knows...

And I think that it's a given that the concept certainly predates any written evidence. In fact its the very basis of reciprocal altruism which is found throughout the natural world.

I am not the subject of this thread, you would do well to restrict your comments to the subject of my post. your criticism and opinion of me are unnecessary and unwelcome. Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity He existed prior to the beginning of time, He did need not rely on any of the resources that you have listed for ideas or wisdom.

 

[disciple Clint]

Completely irrelevant to the what's being discussed. Which is what influence religion has and should have within a currently secular nation.

If you think that religious views should hold sway then you'd need to be prepared to accept, for example, Sharia law. But something tells me that you'd only want your religious views to be prevelant.

Feel free to deny it. But I think you'd have some difficulty. You even have a problem coming to terms with the fact that you live in a secular state.

Have a nice day our exchange is concluded.

 

[Bradskii]

I am not the subject of this thread, you would do well to restrict your comments to the subject of my post. your criticism and opinion of me are unnecessary and unwelcome. Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity He existed prior to the beginning of time, He did need not rely on any of the resources that you have listed for ideas or wisdom.

Of course He didn't. It's an entirely natural concept that has been around for millenia and has been individually formulated by multiple societies.

You asked for evidence that it existed before Jesus's time. You've been given that.

 

[Bradskii]

Have a nice day our exchange is concluded.

Feel free to rejoin the discussion at any time. I hope you'll have taken on that which has been explained to you so that it's not necessary to repeat it.

 

[Speedwell]

My point was that we started out as a nation based on Christian values, we have become a secular nation as time has gone by, I see this as being a decline in our values as a nation

The nation was founded by individuals, many of whom were Christians whose faith you would not acknowledge today. From about the time of the Second Great Awakening, Evangelical Protestantism began to enjoy an entirely unwarranted cultural hegemony in this country, to the point of being a de facto public religion. Ridding ourselves of that influence will actually improve our values.

 

[disciple Clint]

The nation was founded by individuals, many of whom were Christians whose faith you would not acknowledge today. From about the time of the Second Great Awakening, Evangelical Protestantism began to enjoy an entirely unwarranted cultural hegemony in this country, to the point of being a de facto public religion. Ridding ourselves of that influence will actually improve our values.

Ridding ourselves of that influence will actually improve our values.

what is the evidence for this statement?

 

[Speedwell]

what is the evidence for this statement?

It's a matter of opinion, of course.

I just wanted to remind you that your line of argument is bootless. We have always been a secular nation founded and run by citizens who were predominantly Christian. No one disputes that, but it is not an argument for the social agenda of present day right-wing Christian populism.

 

[disciple Clint]

It's a matter of opinion, of course.

I just wanted to remind you that your line of argument is bootless. We have always been a secular nation founded and run by citizens who were predominantly Christian. No one disputes that, but it is not an argument for the social agenda of present day right-wing Christian populism.

We have always been a secular

Looks like you did not review my posts prior to declaring them bootless this is from one of my previous posts: During the nineteenth century, the Supreme Court issued several opinions in which it referred to the United States as a Christian nation." Concept of ‘‘Christian Nation’’ in American Jurisprudence

 

[Speedwell]

Looks like you did not review my posts prior to declaring them bootless this is from one of my previous posts: During the nineteenth century, the Supreme Court issued several opinions in which it referred to the United States as a Christian nation." Concept of ‘‘Christian Nation’’ in American Jurisprudence

Yes, during a time when we were fully under the thumb of Evangelicalism. Good riddance.

 

[hedrick]

Sacred vs Secular – The Moral Wars

If we go back as little as 100 years, Christianity and secular Western opinion would have, more or less, publicly agreed on a set of moral values or rules.

As often, you’re using Christianity to mean conservative Protestants. Most Catholics and mainline Christians are on the other side in the culture wars. The US is still majority Christian, though it’s getting close. This is really a conflict about what Christianity means, as much as with secularism.

 

[GDL]

Churches are subject to some secular laws. Particularly as regards employment and health and safety matters. Though a church itself is tax-exempt, it must withhold income taxes, and FICA (SS and Medicare taxes) on non-clergy employees. To my knowledge, states can require a church to provide work comp insurance for employees. A church can be required to follow building codes, and a kitchen serving the congregation and guests must meet state and local health standards.

And though church property is almost always tax-exempt, I believe churches (and really all tax-exempt non-profits) should pay a user fee to help support police, fire, and EMS services these institutions use. It's only fair. And I don't think this would displease God. If there is a God..

Human government itself is taught as a Divine Institution derived from Scriptures in Genesis. There is warrant in the Old Covenant Scripture for paying taxes and in New Covenant Scripture for Christians to pay taxes to the state. There is warrant from Old Covenant Scripture re: building codes for human responsibility & liability for safety - so this concept is several thousand years old. Once again, we're able to work from the Authority of Scripture.

I'm not opposed to discussion on churches paying taxes for such services. Remembering that churches are assemblies of people, the majority of its members are already paying for those services. Biblically speaking, I don't think property taxes are warranted. It's been awhile, but this is my recall at the moment.

 

[GDL]

Even the one command that Jesus gave us over all others - the golden rule, existed aeons before Christianity

To be more precise, Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God with all heart, soul, mind, strength, which comes from Old Covenant Scripture. As this is explained elsewhere, this means to keep God's commandments, thus to obey God.

Then He coupled this with the second greatest commandment, which is to love neighbor as self, which also comes from Old Covenant Scripture. This is further explained as being tied directly to the first greatest commandment, which is essentially saying to obey God. So, we cannot love neighbor as self, biblically, without obeying God. Additionally, this second commandment from Old Covenant Scripture is in the context of rebuking a neighbor when they're out of line. So, it's a command to help one another remain in line with the first greatest commandment - to love/obey God. Thus neighbors were mandated to help maintain the godly order of the nation.

With this in mind, when Jesus brought up the as-called Golden Rule, He stated it as a summary statement of the entire Old Covenant Scripture (the Law and the Prophets) covering all of human history dating back to creation.

We're dealing with ancient concepts here dating back to the beginning.