The Moral Wars

[stevevw]

Sacred vs Secular – The Moral Wars

If we go back as little as 100 years, Christianity and secular Western opinion would have, more or less, publicly agreed on a set of moral values or rules.

In my lifetime I’ve seen a gradual separation of sacred and secular opinion on a number of major issues usually - but not always - related to sexual behaviour. This moral rupture appears to be ongoing. In trying to list the various areas of sacred/secular conflict I ended up dividing the list into three groups:

Major Conflicts
Areas where Christian doctrine and the opinions of Christians more or less agree and are in opposition to a secular majority. These are the ongoing hard-fought battles where the split is basically along sacred/secular lines.

Lesser Conflicts
Areas where Christian opinion and doctrine is mixed. While many Christians accept the secular view there is still a significant and vocal Christian opposition based on doctrinal arguments. Outside of the US many of these would qualify as ‘Lost Causes’.

Lost Causes?
The true is/oughts. Concepts which may have Christian doctrinal disagreement but have essentially lost the battle. Quietly accepted by most Westernised Christians.

The list:

Major Conflicts
· Abortion
· Assisted dying
· Same sex marriage
· Gender transition – particularly in younger people

Lesser Conflicts
· Evolution
· Age of the Earth/Universe
· Biblical literalism e.g.

o Genesis
o Noah’s flood
o The Tower of Babel​

· Acceptance of non-stereotypical gender behaviour

Lost Causes?
· Sexual activity outside of marriage
· Acceptance of homosexuality
· Female equality
· Contraception

• Marriage like relationships" (aka 'shacking up')
• Children out of wedlock" (single or partnered)
• Divorce

Is this list a reasonably summary of sacred/secular battle lines? What have I missed?

I see the secular view as winning on all fronts. Am I wrong?

This thread is not about who ‘ought’ to win but who, in real terms, is winning the battle for public acceptance.

OB
Edit: Red text = later additions

I agree I think the secular view as winning on all fronts. By the fact you say that if we go back 100 years ago maybe even less that Christianity and secular Western opinion would have, more or less, publicly agreed on a set of moral values or rules may indicate that the seperation will continue and we will see more issues fall into the lost causes.

I think most of the change came from the 60's sexual revolution which was closely followed by womens liberation which was based on the sexual revolution especially the investion of contraception. I think primarily its about liberation and this has been the basis for homosexuality, transgenerism and gender ideology.

Basically as society has moved away from Gods morality and become more secular we have lost touch with nature and replaced this with human made ideas of what is natural. Therefore secular society will continue to reject God and Christianity I think to the point that it will be relegated to the sidelines and we will see secular society continue to progress into more radical ideas.

On the other hand in some ways some of the scared truths are coming back. I think people are warming to the idea that abortion is wrong. Its taken some time but I think the tide is turning. WE may see this in other ways but I suspect it wont be because Christianity is increasing but because of other reasons such as for political or changing social reasons.

But I believe that the true underlying reason there is a growing conflict between Christian/religious morality and secular society is a spiritual one and no amount of reconciling is going to change things. Its more than just politics, and social change but a deep seated dislike for God.

 

[Astrid]

I agree I think the secular view as winning on all fronts. By the fact you say that if we go back 100 years ago maybe even less that Christianity and secular Western opinion would have, more or less, publicly agreed on a set of moral values or rules may indicate that the seperation will continue and we will see more issues fall into the lost causes.

I think most of the change came from the 60's sexual revolution which was closely followed by womens liberation which was based on the sexual revolution especially the investion of contraception. I think primarily its about liberation and this has been the basis for homosexuality, transgenerism and gender ideology.

Basically as society has moved away from Gods morality and become more secular we have lost touch with nature and replaced this with human made ideas of what is natural. Therefore secular society will continue to reject God and Christianity I think to the point that it will be relegated to the sidelines and we will see secular society continue to progress into more radical ideas.

On the other hand in some ways some of the scared truths are coming back. I think people are warming to the idea that abortion is wrong. Its taken some time but I think the tide is turning. WE may see this in other ways but I suspect it wont be because Christianity is increasing but because of other reasons such as for political or changing social reasons.

But I believe that the true underlying reason there is a growing conflict between Christian/religious morality and secular society is a spiritual one and no amount of reconciling is going to change things. Its more than just politics, and social change but a deep seated dislike for God.

Agreed on morality, norms and social rules of
19th century Ametica allowed for slavery followed
by savage discrimination; vast injustice toward the
heathen savages, the Asian exclesion act, and so
forth.
As for "women's lib", well, the right to vote,
to dress as well please, to become what our
abilities, not men's discrimination allows us,
so many things from not being demeaned on
public-display magazine covers to being taken
seriously in politics.

Suggesting it's about the " sexual revolution"
is BTW very demeaning.

Not every change is an improvement but I think
anyone sent back to, say 1870 would be horrified
and sickened by what they found..

If any or all of the improvements in social
mores are secular instead of Christian in
origin, well, what does that say?
Like about who is out of touch.

One more thing- I don't dislike, or "hate" God as I
see so often claimed of atheists.
It doesn't even make sense.
There will be no nderstanding of others
if one's thinking is crippled by such
ideas.

 

[stevevw]

Agreed on morality, norms and social rules of
19th century Ametica allowed for slavery followed
by savage discrimination; vast injustice toward the
heathen savages, the Asian exclesion act, and so
forth.
As for "women's lib", well, the right to vote,
to dress as well please, to become what our
abilities, not men's discrimination allows us,
so many things from not being demeaned on
public-display magazine covers to being taken
seriously in politics.

Suggesting it's about the " sexual revolution"
is BTW very demeaning.

Why would aligning the sexual revolution with the change in morality by demeaning. Its a fact where before this period we had less sexual liberation due to a number of reasons and not just moral ones but social ones as well. Having sex was a risk of getting pregnant so single people refrained from being sexually active. Women had more children and were obligated to motherhood and the home. After contraception was introduced this freed women especially to be single and reduce the risk and consequences of falling pregnant.

The biggest impact was it allowed people have control over sex and they could be more promisqious. This is bourne out by the statistics where there is a gradual rise in out of wedlock pregnancies, more sex before and out of marriage, more single people and more women outside the home and in work. Womens liberation movement was a natural progression of this.

Not every change is an improvement but I think
anyone sent back to, say 1870 would be horrified
and sickened by what they found..

I think it’s all contextual. They say the 20th century is the bloodiest in history. According to WHO there are 125,000 abortions a day. There are many conflicts in the world at the moment and there are more suicides and mental illness then ever and its growing.

You would think in a modern world that offers everything and every comfort that more people would be happy and at peace. But it’s the opposite. So something isn’t right. I think it’s that today’s world focuses too much on materialism and there is a big transcendent void not being fulfilled.

Sure we have improved medicine and people are living longer. But it seems we are also creating more diseases and viral infections as well as dirupting nature which is having a ripple effect on the environment and therefore living things. As a species humans are selfish and we are wiping out many other species to satify our needs and wants.

If any or all of the improvements in social
mores are secular instead of Christian in
origin, well, what does that say?
Like about who is out of touch.

I think its a complex mix of factors. But I believe there is always a cost when it comes to secular society. Because its premised on materialism, capitalism, indiviudalism its primarily about short termism and is self satifying IE profits before people and environment.

IMO secular ideas of what is good and best are different to Christianity. Christianity is primarily self-sacrifice and putting others first. It’s not about worldly ideas of what makes happiness so therefore it should be about not following the mainstream ideologies and systems to the point where these things become your God. Everything should be guided by Gods will and not self-will.

That’s why I think its important to maintain the religious charities as they are a big part of supporting governments and society in helping the most needy when they fall through the secular system. As we have seen secular welfare is becoming more about looking after yourself and if you don’t then too bad.

One more thing- I don't dislike, or "hate" God as I
see so often claimed of atheists.
It doesn't even make sense.
There will be no nderstanding of others
if one's thinking is crippled by such
ideas.

Not sure what you mean. I think religion as a human made institution has caused a lot of damage and that has put people off. But interwoven in that is the true Christian who follows Christ and this should be seen as good and helpful. Though there is an element that Christ said that he represents the truth and sometimes this is threatening to sinners and they want to destroy anything Christian.

 

[Astrid]

Why would aligning the sexual revolution with the change in morality by demeaning. Its a fact where before this period we had less sexual liberation due to a number of reasons and not just moral ones but social ones as well. Having sex was a risk of getting pregnant so single people refrained from being sexually active. Women had more children and were obligated to motherhood and the home. After contraception was introduced this freed women especially to be single and reduce the risk and consequences of falling pregnant.

The biggest impact was it allowed people have control over sex and they could be more promisqious. This is bourne out by the statistics where there is a gradual rise in out of wedlock pregnancies, more sex before and out of marriage, more single people and more women outside the home and in work. Womens liberation movement was a natural progression of this.

I think it’s all contextual. They say the 20th century is the bloodiest in history. According to WHO there are 125,000 abortions a day. There are many conflicts in the world at the moment and there are more suicides and mental illness then ever and its growing.

You would think in a modern world that offers everything and every comfort that more people would be happy and at peace. But it’s the opposite. So something isn’t right. I think it’s that today’s world focuses too much on materialism and there is a big transcendent void not being fulfilled.

Sure we have improved medicine and people are living longer. But it seems we are also creating more diseases and viral infections as well as dirupting nature which is having a ripple effect on the environment and therefore living things. As a species humans are selfish and we are wiping out many other species to satify our needs and wants.

I think its a complex mix of factors. But I believe there is always a cost when it comes to secular society. Because its premised on materialism, capitalism, indiviudalism its primarily about short termism and is self satifying IE profits before people and environment.

IMO secular ideas of what is good and best are different to Christianity. Christianity is primarily self-sacrifice and putting others first. It’s not about worldly ideas of what makes happiness so therefore it should be about not following the mainstream ideologies and systems to the point where these things become your God. Everything should be guided by Gods will and not self-will.

That’s why I think its important to maintain the religious charities as they are a big part of supporting governments and society in helping the most needy when they fall through the secular system. As we have seen secular welfare is becoming more about looking after yourself and if you don’t then too bad.

Not sure what you mean. I think religion as a human made institution has caused a lot of damage and that has put people off. But interwoven in that is the true Christian who follows Christ and this should be seen as good and helpful. Though there is an element that Christ said that he represents the truth and sometimes this is threatening to sinners and they want to destroy anything Christian.

One at a time.

Women's lib...

Could you try to list a few things besides "sex"
that are women's issues of concern, re discrimination
in America?
IMO, sex as such is the least of it.

Oh, one more.
What don't you understand in "I don't hate God"?
It's super simple.
You don't understand, or, you just don't believe me?

 

[Paidiske]

Why would aligning the sexual revolution with the change in morality by demeaning. Its a fact where before this period we had less sexual liberation due to a number of reasons and not just moral ones but social ones as well. Having sex was a risk of getting pregnant so single people refrained from being sexually active. Women had more children and were obligated to motherhood and the home. After contraception was introduced this freed women especially to be single and reduce the risk and consequences of falling pregnant.

The biggest impact was it allowed people have control over sex and they could be more promisqious. This is bourne out by the statistics where there is a gradual rise in out of wedlock pregnancies, more sex before and out of marriage, more single people and more women outside the home and in work. Womens liberation movement was a natural progression of this.

If I understood @Estrid (and I trust she'll correct me if I didn't), she was saying that making out that women's liberation was all about the sexual revolution was demeaning. As if all women were interested in was promiscuous sex, rather than being treated as actual human beings with dignity and agency in all of our life contexts.

It's a reaction I can understand. Women's liberation is often painted by some as a bad thing (because sex!), and women are left wondering if those people really would prefer that women are treated as chattel, or even, as in your post "obligated to motherhood and the home."

 

[Bradskii]

IMO secular ideas of what is good and best are different to Christianity. Christianity is primarily self-sacrifice and putting others first. It’s not about worldly ideas of what makes happiness so therefore it should be about not following the mainstream ideologies and systems to the point where these things become your God. Everything should be guided by Gods will and not self-will.

Well, Steve, you've had your chance. You're heading over the secular ramparts holding the cross on high promising all a better life...and hardly anyone is following you.

I think that your problem is that you're all arguing amongst yourselves. I'm standing on the sidelines and that's all I see. In fact, I see quite a lot of people holding that cross and urging that we all follow. But in different directions ('God wants us to go this way!'). Even those within a specific denomination can't agree on some matters. And I wont even touch on the fact that there are many religions comprising umpteen sects all declaring that they know the best path out of this mess.

This is the way that I see it. I give everyone a fair hearing. I listen to what everyone suggests is the best route to follow. And I take what I personally think are the reasonable aspects of each viewpoint and I amalgamate them and incorporate them into what is essentially the Church of Bradskii.

It ain't perfect. I still make mistakes. But it's better, in my humble opinion, than what anyone else is offering.