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The Monergism Safe House

AMR

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student ad x

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That is excellent brother, thank you for bringing that to my attention.
239644-albums1818-25282.gif
 
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They use it as an ad hominem alot too. But mostly, the argument I hear alot is either man has the ability to choose something he won't choose, or he's a robot. If they want to say that Christians are robots, I point to Ezekiel 36:26, 27.
To all those He gave a new heart, did every one of them choose Jesus?
 
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student ad x

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To all those He gave a new heart, did every one of them choose Jesus?
God is effective in all that He says and in all that He says He will do. His special love for his people is efficacious.
 
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God is effective in all that He says and in all that He says He will do. His special love for his people is efficacious.

God not only ordains all things but in his providence he executes all his will to the end He has determined but why are we shameful to claim that we're slaves or captive to Him or robots/puppet to him? If I'm being told to do things by Him and there are no other choices cause He knows me and it would be impossible for me to so something that wasn't in his plan then I would have to say He forced me to do things so His promises will be kept and His guarantees still stands.
I believe the arminians use the term robots cause they're ashamed to be forced and want more power than Total depravity and loves free will.
 
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Shulamite

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God not only ordains all things but in his providence he executes all his will to the end He has determined but why are we shameful to claim that we're slaves or captive to Him or robots/puppet to him? If I'm being told to do things by Him and there are no other choices cause He knows me and it would be impossible for me to so something that wasn't in his plan then I would have to say He forced me to do things so His promises will be kept and His guarantees still stands.
I believe the arminians use the term robots cause they're ashamed to be forced and want more power than Total depravity and loves free will.

AMEN....! I am proud of God's Sovereignty, not angry at it. I boast in God's Sovereignty, not my free will. I glory in His predestined plan, not resist it with my own, I rejoice in being His slave, not in serving myself by thinking I can plot my own steps.
 
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student ad x

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God not only ordains all things but in his providence he executes all his will to the end He has determined but why are we shameful to claim that we're slaves or captive to Him or robots/puppet to him? If I'm being told to do things by Him and there are no other choices cause He knows me and it would be impossible for me to so something that wasn't in his plan then I would have to say He forced me to do things so His promises will be kept and His guarantees still stands.
I believe the arminians use the term robots cause they're ashamed to be forced and want more power than Total depravity and loves free will.
The differences between our views, I suspect, is that I'm a sublapsarian, not a supra. This may be helpful to those passing through.

From Robert Reymond's A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith; pgs 480-489:

Sub- or infra- lapsarian
1. The decree to create the world and all men.
2. The decree that (all) men would fall.
3. The election of some fallen men to salvation in Christ (and the reprobation of others).
4. The decree to redeem the elect by the cross work of Christ.
5. The decree to apply Christ's redemptive benefits to the elect.

Supra lapsarian (Beza, Perkins, Gomarus, Twisse)
1. The election of some men to salvation in Christ (and the reprobation of the others).
2. The decree to create the world and both kinds of men.
3. The decree that all men would fall.
4. The decree to redeem the elect, who are now sinners, by the cross work of Christ.
5. The decree to apply Christ's redemptive benefits to these elect sinners.

Modified supralapsarian (Herman Hoeksema, Gordon H. Clark)
1. The election of some sinful men to salvation in Christ (and the reprobation of the rest of sinful mankind in order to make known the riches of God's gracious mercy to the elect).
2. The decree to apply Christ's redemptive benefits to the elect sinners.
3. The decree to redeem the elect sinners by the cross work of Christ.
4. The decree that men should fall.
5. The decree to create the world and men.
_______________


This is the Amyraldian view of the decrees (which is what our Christmas Calvinist Dr. Steve J affirms):
1. The decree to create the world and (all) men.
2. The decree that (all) men would fall.
3. The decree to redeem (all) men by the cross work of Christ.
4. The election of some fallen men to salvation in Christ (and the reprobation of the others).
5. The decree to apply Christ's redemptive benefits to the elect.
 
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Question: Do the faithful know they are saved?

We're saved if we're mindful of it.



Some say it's the circumstances which God directly controls ...NOT the human.

Then, the human responds in their own will to the circumstances.

Thus human volition makes a free choice within circumstances while the Most High arranges circumstance so intended results occur.

Again: Some say it's the circumstance God directly controls, not human will. In this manner our choice is 'free'. Some say we're not robots or zombies. But again we choose according to the circumstances and we might as well be the circumstances as the result of the ripple effect of prearraged circumstances. We might as well be what God arranged us to be. Where is that fine line between God's Wills and human wills? I think it's the same.

Now, regarding how the Lord arranges circumstances, it varies for each instance. You have heard, though, the philosophical dictum that moving just one grain of sand on a beach eventually changes the course of entire history ? Same principle with Divine Providence.

We start with God's foreknowledge of outcomes. He knows in advance what effect any given change would have. Next, the Most High alters some small thing. And that has the ripple effect to present the circumstance God intended. [ Almost sounds like Science Fiction ! ]

The example I often give in the past posts is putting a bank within sight of a robber. That robber eventually robs the bank as the Supreme Being intended he would. Yet he does it out of his sin nature instead because of some kind of divine coercion.

It would be helpful to understand mindfulness of arranged circumstances before we go on. We human beings have an extraordinary capacity, which we sometimes take for granted until it is called to our attention: unlike other beings in the world who are living out their lives, we have the ability to be conscious of that process as we do so.
Mindfulness is often likened to a mirror: it simply reflects that is there. It is not a process of thinking: it is preconceptual, before thought. One can be mindful of thought. There is all the difference in the world between thinking and knowing that thought is happening, as thoughts chase each other through the mind and the process is mirrored back to us.
The only time that mindfulness can happen is in the present moment: if you are thinking of the past, that is memory. It is possible to be mindful of memory, of course, but such mindfulness can only happen in the present.
Mindfulness is unbiased. It is not for or against anything, just like a mirror, which does not judge what it reflects. Mindfulness has no goal other than the seeing itself. It doesn't try to add to what's happening or subtract from it, to improve it in any way.
It isn't detached, like a person standing on a hill far away from an experience, observing it with binoculars. It is a form of participation - you are fully living out your life, but you are awake in the midst of it. It can also follow us into the ordinary life situations that make up our day.
One word that I personally have come to associate with mindful living is intimacy. The mind is intimate with all things." To take a simple example: You're walking in the woods and your attention is drawn to a beautiful tree or a flower. The usual human reaction is drawn to a beautiful tree or a flower. The human reaction is to set the mind working, " What a beautiful tree, I wonder how it's been here, I wonder how often people notice it, I really should write a poem...."
The way of mindfulness would be just to see the tree. As you gaze at the tree there is nothing between you and it. No separation. You are one with it.
We are one with God's prearranged circumstances, I believe. We are mindful to what God had already arranged as well the present continuous arrangements. I observe the circumstances around me and become one with it. I accept everything God arranged. I believe that arrangement includes us. I believe we are God arrangements and we are the circumstances.

My question here is why do the Calvinist say we are separated from God's will as if we're not part of it?

Do we really see what we are?


distorted-mirror.jpg

 
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student ad x

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I have a moment to answer this question and perhaps some of our friends will join in a discussion.

"My question here is why do the Calvinist say we are separated from God's will as if we're not part of it?"

I can only speak for myself, I am not separated from God's will.
 
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JM

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Question: Do the faithful know they are saved?

My answer might be a little different from others because I believe in justification from eternity.



If a King gives a condemned man a pardon but the pardon doesn’t reach the condemned man for a few days, or even months, when does the pardon actually take place? Does the pardon depend on the decree from the King to pardon or the condemned man’s apprehension of it?

“There is no succession in the knowledge of God. The variety of successions and changes in the world make not succession, or new objects in the Divine mind; for all things are present to him from eternity in regard of his knowledge, though they are not actually present in the world, in regard of their existence. He doth not know one thing now, and another anon; he sees all things at once; “Known unto God are all things from the beginning of the world” (Acts 15:18); but in their true order of succession, as they lie in the eternal council of God, to be brought forth in time. Though there be a succession and order of things as they are wrought, there is yet no succession in God in regard of his knowledge of them. God knows the things that shall be wrought, and the order of them in their being brought upon the stage of the world; yet both the things and the order he knows by one act. Though all things be present with God, yet they are present to him in the order of their appearance in the world, and not so present with him as if they should be wrought at once. The death of Christ was to precede his resurrection in order of time; there is a succession in this; both at once are known by God; yet the act of his knowledge is not exercised about Christ as dying and rising at the same time; so that there is succession in things when there is no succession in God’s knowledge of them. Since God knows time, he knows all things as they are in time; he doth not know all things to be at once, though he knows at once what is, has been, and will be. All things are past, present, and to come, in regard of their existence; but there is not past, present, and to come, in regard of God’s knowledge of them, because he sees and knows not by any other, but by himself; he is his own light by which he sees, his own glass wherein he sees; beholding himself, he beholds all things.” Charnock
I would say the saved will have faith in their Saviour. Our salvation doesn't depend upon our faith, faith is the evidence and not the cause of our salvation.



“Let theologians note the following distinctions. Christians were decretively justified from all eternity: efficaciously so when Christ rose again from the dead; actually so when they believed; sensibly so when the Spirit bestows joyous assurance; manifestly so when they tread the path of obedience; finally so at the Day of Judgment, when God shall sententiously, and in the presense of all created things, pronounce them so.” – Arthur W. Pink

 
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Skala

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Thanks for something to chew on, JM. I guess my question would be what is the difference between decretive justification and actual justification (As AW Pink differentiated in the quote you provided)

The first thing that comes to mind when talking about this is the teaching of Paul that justification is by faith. I do not deny that God planned to justify His elect from eternity past. But I see faith in temporal time (which God guarantees will happen) as the moment of justification proper.

If I held to eternal justification, the implications of that are many. (I'm still learning, though, and open to teaching). For example, we could say that we were "right with God" even before we trusted in Christ and were united to him by saving faith. That doesn't sit right with me. Mainly because the Bible tells us that it is because of our being believers that we are now translated from darkness to light, adopted, no longer at enmity with God, but now have peace, etc etc etc. The Bible tends to emphasize a moment in temporal time when this drastic spiritual change occurred.
 
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JM

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Hey Skala,

Thanks for something to chew on, JM. I guess my question would be what is the difference between decretive justification and actual justification (As AW Pink differentiated in the quote you provided)


I think, for the most part, it is just theological mumbo jumbo. If you consider the quote by Pink he also makes a theological distinction between "efficaciously so" and "actually so." If that is the case the OT Saints were not justified until Christ "rose again from the dead" as he points out. The distinctions are just theological in my opinion and not necessary but the quote is instructive in pointing that out.

The first thing that comes to mind when talking about this is the teaching of Paul that justification is by faith. I do not deny that God planned to justify His elect from eternity past. But I see faith in temporal time (which God guarantees will happen) as the moment of justification proper.



Because of time restrictions I'll quote John Gill:

"It is affirmed, that those various passages of scripture, where we are said to be justified through faith, and by fairly, have no other tendency than to show that faith is something prerequisite to justification, which cannot be said if justification was from eternity. To which the answer is, that those scriptures which speak of justification, through and by faith, do not militate against, nor disprove justification before faith; for though justification by and before faith differ, yet they are not opposite and contradictory. They differ, the one being an immanent act in God; all which sort of acts are eternal, and so before faith; the other being a transient declarative act, terminating on the conscience of the believer; and so is by and through faith, and follows it. But then these do not contradict each other, the one being a declaration and manifestation of the other. What scriptures may be thought to speak of faith, as a prerequisite to justification, cannot be understood as speaking of it as a prerequisite to the being of justification; for faith has no causal influence upon it, it adds nothing to its being, it is no ingredient in it, it is not the cause nor matter of it; at most, they can only be understood as speaking of faith as a prerequisite to the knowledge and comfort of it, and to a claim of interest in it; and this is readily allowed, that no man is evidentially and declaratively justified until he believes; that is, he cannot have the knowledge of it, nor any comfort from it; nor can he claim his interest in it, without faith; and this being observed, obviates another objection, that if justification is before faith, then faith is needless and useless. It is not so; it is not of use to justify men, which it is never said to do; but it is of use to receive the blessing of justification, and to enjoy the comfort of it." Justification as an Eternal and Immanent Act of God « Feileadh Mor

For example, we could say that we were "right with God" even before we trusted in Christ and were united to him by saving faith. That doesn't sit right with me. Mainly because the Bible tells us that it is because of our being believers that we are now translated from darkness to light, adopted, no longer at enmity with God, but now have peace, etc etc etc. The Bible tends to emphasize a moment in temporal time when this drastic spiritual change occurred.


I would say that regeneration does not make us Sons of God. John Brine points out, "Regeneration doth not make us sons; but, because we are sons, we are regenerated. That the elect “are by nature children of wrath, even as others (Ephesians 2:2.),” is certain; and that they are the children of God by grace, is equally so. And both there may be said of them at one and the same time, but in different respects. As the descendants of Adam, they are children of wrath; that is, they are under a sentence of condemnation by the law: As in, and members of Christ, they are the children of God, and free from condemnation in his sight; yea, they are the objects of his special love and delight, and were so from everlasting; which is the reason why they are regenerated in God’s due time, when their adoption becomes open and visible." Regeneration doth not make us sons… « Feileadh Mor

I created some epub books and posted them on my blog. The book by Baptist Job Hupton has been espeically helpful to me. You can get it here: (FREE ePub/eBOOK) Job Hupton « Feileadh Mor

I have also made a video using a clip from a Don Fortner sermon that touches upon the issue in the peripheral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JQKdj-dzIw
 
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Keachian

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Question: Do the faithful know they are saved?

Part of what I cling to is a want I've had most of my Christian life to serve God and serve his people regardless of my eternal destination, I look to Christ for my strength and I think that drive and want tells me I'm saved.
 
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student ad x

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Okay, thank you brothers, most appreciated, and thank you for the Pink quote JM, excellent. You guys went straight to the heart of the matter for me, thank you.

Earlier today a post struck me odd that said in essence that Calvinists do not know they are saved. When someone asks me if I am saved, I keep it concise. I say yes, my faith lies in Jesus Christ (John 6:47; 1 John 5:13); and the sacrifice He made on my behalf (Ephesians 1:7; 13-14; Colossians 2:12-14).

From the Westminster, Savoy, & London Baptist Confessions :

WCF ..... such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God, which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

SC ...... such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.

This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ, revealed in the gospel, and also upon the inward evidence of those graces unto which promises are made, and on the immediate witness of the Spirit, testifying our adoption, and as a fruit thereof, leaving the heart more humble and holy.

LBC.... such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.

2._____ This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel; and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made, and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; and, as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy.

What would be the standard answer that you would give. Would it be from the Scriptures, the confessions, or something of both?
 
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