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The MJAA as a standard of Messianic Judaism

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Qnts2

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I have been repeatedly posting the statements of faith and the core values, or history of the Two largest Messianic Judaism organisations, only to find that it appears that many people on here who use the Messianic icon actually disagree with these organizations. Recently, someone said they disagree, and they are going to claim the name 'Messianic Judaism' and think the MJAA should call itself something different, for instance, Grace only Christians.

So, I am asking, any and all participants on the forum, do you agree with the following statement from this forum..



The Messianic Judaism Forum Statement of Purpose


The Messianic Community - a discussion and fellowship forum for all Messianic members.


A few things to know about Messianic Believers: *we are using the MJAA The Messianic Jewish Identity (MJAA) here to provide further explaination.


  • Main Stream Messianic Judaism affirms the Trinitarian nature of God-*The "Messianic Jewish identity" is wholly dependent on the person of Yeshua: God Himself come to earth to reconcile the Jewish people and all nations to Himself.
  • Messianic Believers are Jews and Gentiles who have embraced Yeshua as the Messiah of Israel (Redeemer of the World)-*The foundation of Messianic Judaism is each individual's personal relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through Messiah Yeshua.
  • Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians) and linked thru tradition and celebration to the Jewish culture world wide- *Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith.
  • Messianic Believers incorporate, affirm, and preserve the Jewish identity, Jewish customs, and Jewish style of worship, as they seek to be a light to the Jew first, then to the Nations.- *A Messianic Jew does not loose their Jewish identity when they choose to put their faith in the Jewish Messiah. Messianic Jews seek to embrace their Jewishness by meeting in congregational communities with other Jewish believers and by maintaining a Biblically Jewish expression of their faith. If Yeshua really is the Jewish Messiah of whom all the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke, then it is the most Jewish thing in the world to follow Him!
  • Messianic Believers share in a call to be a witness of the Grace and Love and Salvation Yeshua brings, but discourage counter missionary activity in their midst [Acts 20:28-30]- *Yeshua declared that no-one can comes to the Father - the God of Israel! - except through Him (John 14:6). Messianic Jews seek to share this way, this truth, and this life with their Jewish brothers and sisters.
To learn more about what Messianics believe please see the MJAA and the UMJC.
 

Henaynei

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Some other views...

The Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Association

The OMJRA is a theologically conservative association of messianic Jewish rabbis who willingly accept the yoke of Torah upon our lives. The members of this association also believe that we must be accountable to one another in accordance with scripture.

The OMJRA desires to establish credentials based on the highest quality and best trained rabbis in the messianic movement. through continuing education our member rabbis have the opportunity to hone their knowledge and research skills. Thereby becoming some of the best trained and most qualified rabbis in the messianic movement. To assist us in reaching our goal of rabbinic educational excellence the OMJRA is affiliated with the ABOUT-Torah Yeshiva as well as the Ruach V'Emet Research Institute.

Unfortunately, publishing quality research, and teachings often creates controversy within the messianic movement. As a result, the OMJRA has been accused of "Judaizing" and being legalists. However our members voluntarily choose to live in obedience to HaShem's will as expressed in the Torah, while maintaining our messianic identity. This is because research and training have demonstrated to us that this is the way Yeshua and his followers lived.

The OMJRA's Two Primary Goals

The first goal of this association is to establish a network via the internet for the purpose of providing continued education, training, encouragement, and support to our members. Further more we hope to provide counsel, share informational resources, and create an interactive forum where members can meet to discuss Halakic issues that are so critical to the well being and continued growth of the Torah-Observant messianic community.

The second and most important goal is to promote the validity and necessity of Torah observance amongst the leadership of the messianic movement. We realize that these are lofty goals but we remain confident, not in our own abilities, but in the sovereignty of HaShem and the obedience of those who hear his voice.

How The OMJRA Defines Messianic

Unfortunately, the word messianic has changed from its historical meaning. Historically this word was synonymous with Judaism in that Judaism was and is forever linked with the belief in a redemptive messiah.

Recent years have seen the term messianic become less Jewish and more Christian in its definition. As a result the term messianic has been redefined in a way that has removed the term from the realm of Jewish thought and brought it into the realm of Christian Theology.

The members of the Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Association, want to reverse this trend and return the word to its historical & traditional meaning. Therefore, you will not find traditional Christian teachings on this web site. The members of the OMJRA are Jewish. In fact, we are Torah-Observant Jews who cling to the ancient promise of a Jewish messiah. As a result, the OMJRA members do not subscribe to Christian doctrines or beliefs. our members do not seek to make converts to Christianity of our fellow Jews. Rather our members seek to promote Torah Observance to our people and to promote an understanding of Torah through out the nations.

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Henaynei

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Hashivenu[URL]

Messianic Judaism is a Judaism and not a cosmetically altered "Jewish style" version of what is extant in the wider Christian community.
This was the great leap which was taken when we changed our self-designation from "Hebrew-Christian" or "Jewish-Christian" to "Messianic Jew." We were saying that we no longer saw ourselves as Christians-Presbyterians, Baptists, Episcopalians, Pentecostals, etc.-who happened to come from Jewish ethnic backgrounds. Instead, being "Jewish" is, for us, a fundamental religious category. We are those who by birth share in the covenant G-d made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and whose ancestors pledged themselves and their descendants to a particular way of life with G-d at Sinai. Having been born into the covenant, we have also come to recognize Messiah Yeshua as the One sent by G-d to bring the covenant to its appointed goal.

We expressed this reality by switching our worship day from Sunday to Saturday, by celebrating the biblical feasts, by adopting traditional Jewish religious terminology (such as "rabbi" and "synagogue") and traditional Jewish religious customs (such as wearing tallit and kippot, having Torah services, and reciting the Shema), by employing selected Hebrew prayers in our services, by singing in a minor key and dancing Israeli dances. All of this was positive and good, though for the most part, superficial. The surface structure is the easiest to change. Of more importance is the deep structure, and this level has proved more intransigent.

The deep structure of religious life consists of the rooted patterns of thought, speech, action and identification reflected in our daily lives as individuals, families, and congregations. How do we think and talk about G-d, about His involvement with the world and with Israel? What is the actual texture of our daily and weekly religious practice? How is our sense of connection with the Jewish people as a whole expressed?

Too often the deep structure of Messianic Jewish religious life is indistinguishable from that of popular evangelicalism and bears little or no resemblance to any form of Judaism, past or present. When the world is easily divided into the classes of "saved" and "unsaved," when our speech is peppered with casual references to "what G-d just did" and "what G-d just said," when our exclusive mode of prayer is conversational and begins "Father G-d" and ends "in the precious name of Yeshua," when our kids go to Christian schools because the public schools are filled with "satanic influences," when speculation about the end-times is more natural to us than reciting a berachah -- then we know that the deep structure of our religious life is Hebrew Christian and has been untouched by the drastic changes in the surface structure of our movement.

We in Hashivenu believe that the radical innovation initiated in the 70's with the birth of "Messianic Judaism" -- founded on first century precedent but radically "new," nevertheless -- has not yet been brought to its logical conclusion. The deep structure must now be transformed.

When we say that Messianic Judaism is "a Judaism," we are also acknowledging the existence of other "Judaisms." We do not deny their existence, their legitimacy, or their value. We are not the sole valid expression of Judaism with all else a counterfeit. We recognize our kinship with other Judaisms and believe that we have much of profound importance to learn from them, as well as something vitally important to share with them.

Core Value #2

G-d's particular relationship with Israel is expressed in the Torah, G-d's unique covenant with the Jewish people.
Within the Messianic movement it is an accepted assertion that the Jewish people have a unique covenant relationship with G-d and a particular vocation in this world. The Pauline affirmation of the irrevocable nature of the promises, gifts, and calling of G-d is axiomatic throughout the movement. While opening up new possibilities for the Gentiles and placing them in a new relationship to Israel, the coming of Yeshua does not obliterate Israel's character as a people set apart with a special destiny.

Neither is the ongoing value of Torah a contentious issue within our ranks. It was the embracing of noteworthy elements of Torah observance, such as Shabbat, the festal calendar, and tzitzit, which distinguished our movement from its inception. Matthew 5:17, with its assurance that Yeshua came to fulfill and not abolish the Torah, is just as foundational for our movement as is Romans 11:29.

It is the connection between these two affirmations that causes some consternation among us. We in Hashivenu believe that the specific observances of the Torah serve as signs of the distinctive character and calling of the Jewish people: "You must keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout the ages, that you may know that I HaShem have consecrated you" (Exodus 31:13). It is emphasized time and again throughout Jewish tradition that the Torah is G-d's special gift to the people of Israel: "Blessed are You ... who chose us from all nations and gave us Your Torah."

This is not to say that the Torah is irrelevant to Gentile Christians. Though it addresses a particular people and serves as its national constitution and customs, it also has universal implications. It points prophetically and typologically to the coming of Yeshua and the inclusion of the Gentiles in a covenant relationship with G-d. The specific ordinances of the Torah also reveal principles that apply beyond Israel's collective national life. Nevertheless, in all its particularity, the Torah is G-d's gift of love for one particular people, the people of Israel.

We in Hashivenu believe that this truth requires emphasis within the Messianic Jewish movement. Though Messianic Jews never cease to attack "replacement theology" (usually known outside our movement as "supersessionalism"), we are in danger of failing prey to a more subtle form of the same error. If, in all its ordinances, the Torah addresses Gentiles as much as it does Jews, if it defines the life of the Church as much as it defines the life of the Jewish people, then what remains of Israel's unique character and calling? In the past Jews who entered the church were compelled to surrender Jewish observance and identity and, as a result, they were assimilated and they and their children lost any sense of being Jews. If, contrary to the Apostolic decree and the Pauline injunction, Gentiles in the church are now encouraged to live just like Messianic Jews, will not the same result occur? And what of the Jews who do not believe in Yeshua? What need is there for them? G-d now has a people who are truly keeping his Torah-the Church! We are left with a Messianic Jewish movement without any Jews, a movement that loves Jewish things but not Jewish people.

In our second core value, we express our love for the Jewish people, as rooted in the unique divine love for the Jewish people. We also make known our love for Torah as the divine gift to the Jewish people. Last, but not least, we affirm our conviction that this divine gift to Israel, the Torah, manifests this unique divine love for Israel and is not applicable in the same way to the Gentiles.

Continued

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Henaynei

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Core Value #3

Yeshua is the fullness of Torah.
As long as theological statements have been codified, the Torah has been viewed against Grace. This phenomenon has colored the perception and understanding of many generations of people regarding Torah. People who have seen the world through the Christian worldview have, along with the many advantages, accepted a distorted view of Torah. To them, the Torah is bad, the Gospel is good. Gospel is life and freedom; Torah is seen as slavery and death. With this view as their starting point, it would have been impossible to avoid the inevitability of a negative view of the Law.

With the birth of the Messianic movement, Jewish believers began to have a new self-perception in which their Jewishness was something good and positive and not something to be "saved from." Yet the misperception of Torah persisted as that which was, at best, a "schoolmaster to lead one to Christ" and, at worst, "the temptress who seeks to seduce its victims from salvation by grace through the lure of a salvation of works righteousness."

The real problem with the Torah is not the Torah but the human misunderstanding of Scripture. The Torah was given by G-d at Mt. Sinai. Yeshua was more than a latter born Moshe. He is the Word who was in the Beginning, through whom the world was created. He is the G-d of Israel, the G-d who gave the Torah to the sons of Israel through the hand of Moshe. The commandments of the Torah are Yeshua's commandments, not an arbitrary set of rules or rituals. They are a revelation of the heart of G-d; they are a reflection of Yeshua's heart. They cannot be understood to be G-d's lesser commands. Yeshua's teachings do not permit such a view. Those who wish to be more like Him must follow the Torah's teachings because they are His very heart. This is the true meaning of the Torah as a schoolmaster to lead us to Messiah. The Torah is not a divine introduction service, arranging blind dates, after which its usefulness is completed. It is a schoolmaster, a teacher -- to guide and train us to become more like Him because this was how He lived and what was in His heart.

The Torah is not a lesser revelation of Yeshua, like an uncompleted puzzle. Simply attaching an addendum to a prayer or commandment does not make it any more complete than it was prior to the addendum. The mitzvah is already complete in that it reflects the heart of Yeshua. When a mitzvah is completed as it was intended when given, it reflects the heart of G-d. Our goal should not be to amend every prayer, commandment, and ritual with Messianic nomenclature. Rather, our goal should be to follow Torah, having faith and a desire to connect with G-d through the act of following. Surely, this was the life Yeshua lived and the life He desires His people to live. Every act of observance is an opportunity to connect with Him. He is the fullness of Torah. Our lives should be so full. Top

Core Value #4

The Jewish people are "us," not "them."
Like a boat that had drifted from its moorings, we were not cognizant of what was happening to us until a key event, conversation, or combination of factors jolted us awake to the realization that we were farther from our Jewish moorings than we had realized.

For most of us, experience in evangelical contexts taught us to look at Jews only as people to whom we ought to witness. For us, the subtext of every family gathering became "How can I bring the subject up?" and the objective in our relationships with Jewish family, friends and acquaintances became "How can I witness to them without their closing the door on the Gospel and on me?" As important as these issues are, we realize now how wrong it was for these evangelistic concerns to be the sole axis of measurement of relationship with other Jews, even our own family members. We became church-culture chameleons, adept at blending in, showing that even though we were Jews, "we weren't like the other Jews": we were real Christians, too. More often than we were prepared to admit, though, we felt ourselves uneasy strangers in a strange land of potluck suppers, hallelujahs, and obligatory right-wing politics. But we had been taught, "You can't go back to what you were. This sense of distance from the Jewish people, Jewish ways, and from family is the cost of discipleship, the cross you are called to gladly bear. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad." One day we discovered that we had become habituated to speaking of the Jewish community in third person. We awoke with a start.

Now we know we can go home again. In fact, we must go home again for, truly, there is no place like home. And home for Jews is Jewish life. No doubt, we will have to remodel that home a bit to properly accommodate Yeshua, our Messiah, but better to remodel our own home than to be a permanent guest at someone else's address.

We dare to believe that among the many mansions prepared for Yeshua's people, some have mezuzot on the doors. We dare to believe that by rediscovering and reclaiming our own identity as Jews, we will be better brothers and sisters to Gentiles who love our Messiah. In all aspects of life, we want to live in a Jewish neighborhood socially, culturally, conceptually so that we and our children and our children's children will not only call Yeshua Lord but also call the Jewish people "our people" and Jewish life "home."

Continued

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Henaynei

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Core Value #5

The richness of the rabbinic tradition is a valuable part of our heritage as Jewish people.
Although weaned and wooed to believe that our New Covenant faith was based on the Bible and nothing but the Bible, "the only rule of faith and practice," we gradually discovered that living out our faith inevitably had a cultural component. The Bible cannot be understood apart from a community context, which helps one understand its deepest meanings. In this way, obedience might become incarnate in daily life. We realized that having our views shaped entirely by a non-Jewish context was leaving a foreign imprint on our hearts, minds and lives. We wondered if this was the best we could expect.

Many of us had been brought up ignorant of, or even hostile to, the varied voices of Jewish tradition. Some had parents who paid lip-service to the G-d of our fathers, while in reality served the lesser G-ds of assimilation, success, and the unquestioned ideals of a good marriage, a home of their own in a good neighborhood, a comfortable retirement, and a better lifestyle for their children. Although these ideals were not unworthy in themselves, they become a form of idolatry when they get treated as the ultimate good. This form of idolatry can never, in the end, satisfy a people formed by HaShem to show forth His praise. But, we had been taught by omission not to look to Jewish tradition to learn how to live "the good life" in the modern world.

Certainly, our evangelical contexts taught us to distrust the opinions of "the rabbis" whose views on life and faith were perceived as a deceptive and legalistic counterfeit of the more abundant life to be found in Yeshua. After all, we had the Holy Spirit! What could we possibly learn from the rabbis except dead religion? "The letter kills but the Spirit gives life." Eventually, we recognized the superficiality of our judgments. We began to reckon with the fact that the proclaimed polarity between Torah and Spirit distorts the testimony of Scripture. We came to appreciate that New Covenant benefits include the Holy Spirit writing the Torah on our hearts, therefore causing us to walk in the statutes and ordinances of G-d. We began to appreciate the unity of Torah and Spirit.

We also began to appreciate how our own spiritual lives stood to benefit from the fruit of thousands of years of Jewish struggle for understanding. Like Paul, we began to bear witness to the undying flame of Jewish zeal for G-d. We began to lean upon these structural pillars, which stabilize Jewish religious life, understanding that they could help strengthen us and the Messianic Jewish community as well.

And what are these three pillars? The first is Torah, instruction for the good life based on the study of the sacred texts. This practice is helping us become more deliberate and informed in discerning the shape of obedience as we encounter life in all its complexity and particularity. Here, too, we learn afresh of the saving acts of G-d, of His promises, and see a reflection of His face.

The second pillar is avodah, the practice of liturgical prayer, which continues to surprise and delight us in its power to enrich our lives. In daily davvening we take our place with our people in the promises and purposes of G-d, reminded again and again of His irrevocable promises to the Patriarchs. We sing His praises with them at the shore of the Red Sea, celebrating our deliverance, sobered by the righteous judgment that overtook our foes, of which not one was left. We hear again and again, as if for the first time, His promise to gather our people from the four corners of the earth, for not one letter of His word will go unfulfilled. Is He not the Blessed One, who says and performs, who decrees and fulfills? We rediscovered daily the faith-transforming power of the Passages of Praise, the time-honored wisdom of the prayer agenda mapped out in the Amidah, and the stability and challenge encountered as we join our people at the foot of Sinai, listening again to the living word of the one who never stops saying to us, "Shema Yisrael." And we leave His presence reoriented and renewed, having again pledged allegiance to Him in the stirring words of the Alenu.

The pillar of gemilut hasadim, deeds of lovingkindness, supports and informs us as we learn to understand the meaning of "true religion," which one New Covenant writer defined as "visiting orphans and widows in their affliction and keeping oneself unspotted by the world." His is a vision totally consonant with this third pillar. The splendid and rich tradition of Jewish ethical writings and discussion of the fine print behind "doing justly, loving mercy and walking humbly with your G-d" never ceases to chasten us, providing teaching, rebuke, correction, and training in righteousness, that we might be fully equipped for every good work.

In all these ways and more, we have become informed and transformed by our own heritage. We rejoice at the privilege of drinking from our own wells, the wells from which our fathers, and from which Yeshua and the Apostles also drank and were sustained. Besides these wells we meet with Yeshua today, and here He speaks with us anew. Top

Core Value #6

Because all people are created in the image of G-d, how we treat them is a reflection of our respect and love for Him. Therefore, true piety cannot exist apart from human decency.
In the science fiction saga, Star Trek, there was a planet of people who had a cloaking device for their ships. They were able to fly around the universe while escaping the detection of any other starships. While their cloaking device was in operation, they were able to travel where and when they wanted without opposition from others, and it gave them an advantageous position from which to attack their enemies. In a similar way, people have misused religion as a cloaking device through which they could maneuver through life, escape detection for wrongs committed and even launch attacks on others.

Historically, this misuse of religion can be seen as far back as organized religion itself. All the prophets cried out against this abuse; Yeshua of Nazareth railed against it as well. The Church persecuted the Jewish people for almost two millennia in the name of religion.

Most thinking people would admit it is not fair to blame religion itself for these things. The problem is one of human nature. It is easy to cloak wrong intentions and problems under a cover of religious piety. Karl Marx thought the answer was to ban religion, but communism proved that politics could be just as effective a cloak as religion.

Religion can be affirmed as good and right. Ritual can be affirmed as a valid expression of faith and a means of connecting with G-d. Sadly, wherever the valid expression exists, the corruption of the ritual can also exist.

There are many Jewish people rediscovering their heritage as well as its beautiful practices. This rediscovery enables us to affirm identity as well as pass on our heritage to our children. Unfortunately, there are some who misuse ritual and form as a pretext to gain acceptance and authority. Some have taken to wearing the black hats and clothing of the Ultra-Orthodox. Others have sought to learn the rituals themselves as a means to grasp authority in the congregation. They have taken something that, in and of itself, is good, and have transformed it solely by their wrong intention into something malevolent.

Yeshua did not speak against ritual and tradition but against the wrong attitudes of those who taught and practiced them with improper motives. When people treat people poorly, whether for religious reasons or non-religious reasons, the value of their religious practice becomes nullified.

The parable of the sheep and the goats makes this clear. To the sheep it is said, "I was hungry and you fed me. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was naked and you clothed me." They answered, "L-rd, When did we ever see you in need?" And He said, "When you did so to the least of these my brethren, you did it to me." To the goats it was said, "I was hungry and you gave me nothing. I was thirsty and you let me thirst. I was naked and you did not clothe me." They answered, "L-rd, When did we ever see you in need?" and He said, "When you did not do so to the least of these my brethren, you didn't do it to me." The only difference between the sheep and the goats was what they did or did not do. Yaacov, the brother of Yeshua, said that pure and undefiled religion is to take care of the needs of widows and orphans. In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Yeshua taught the issue is not WHO is our neighbor, but that we are to BE a neighbor, rendering assistance to anyone in need. When an individual becomes a neighbor, a person who seeks to reach out and meet the needs of others, it can be a deeply religious act.

Religious people easily become preoccupied with words, presuming to become the voice of G-d to those around them. But it is far more fulfilling to be the hands of G-d in the world, as Yeshua and the prophets taught. Yeshua stated "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve," and "He who wishes to be the greatest among you must become the servant of all."

Long ago people tuned out the many self-proclaimed voices of G-d. It gave them headaches. People need to experience His love through kind actions. They need to feel His hands blessing them. The time is long past where religious pretext can cover up man's inhumanity to man. "Holier than thou" attitudes will prove unprofitable is unacceptable as we approach the next millennium. Actually, they never were acceptable from G-d's point of view. The ability to quote Bible verses or the practice of dressing in religious attire are not acceptable alternative standards of spirituality. All people are created in the image of G-d, therefore, how we treat them is a reflection of our respect and love for Him. True piety cannot exist apart from human decency. This is the heart of G-d; people need to feel it beating.

Continued

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Henaynei

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Core Value #7

Maturation requires a humble openness to discovery within the context of firmly held convictions.

The heavens declare the glory of G-d;
the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.

The psalmist beheld the vastness of creation and stood in awe of the inscrutable nature of the Eternal Personality who ordered the universe. Though most religious thinkers would give intellectual assent to the abstruseness of both creation and Creator, the human need for certainty has forced most traditional religions to operate as closed systems, tightly bound by a set of immutable presuppositions and dogma. Though we recognize the importance of firm and clearly held convictions, we consider the cultivation of supple hearts and minds essential if the Messianic Jewish community is to move on to maturity.

With the blessings of the information age, new challenges have arisen. The sheer volume of new and continual discovery has been coupled with the nearly unlimited potential to disseminate and receive information and insight. The result is a new climate, which affects how we view Messianic Judaism, our role, our past, our future and the world about us. Our social, theological and philosophical paradigms have become subject to both new and old thought, which may have previously been ignored, if at all considered. Rather than retreat into the safe and sure fortresses of our immediate past, we must courageously, yet wisely, engage and interact with our dramatically changing world.

Hashivenu affirms the titanic contributions and complementary relationship of the historical Church and the Synagogue to the ennoblement and advancement of the human enterprise. We therefore encourage the Messianic Jewish community to avail itself of the insights of both institutions while critically evaluating the usefulness of such insights as we pursue maturation. We also recognize the tremendous value offered by contemporary cross-disciplinary scholarship. Since truth may be found in surprising places, the over- worn categorization of liberal and conservative will not, in our opinion, serve the best interest of an emerging Messianic Judaism.

End Hashivenu

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yonah_mishael

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So, I am asking, any and all participants on the forum, do you agree with the following statement from this forum.

Seems like the OP question was perfectly intelligible. I don’t know why it required a five-post response the size of a book that didn’t answer it and just offered a different statement. ;)

To answer.... No, I do not agree with the MJAA statement. I’m not Messianic. :thumbsup:
 
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etZion

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Seems like the OP question was perfectly intelligible. I don’t know why it required a five-post response the size of a book that didn’t answer it and just offered a different statement. ;)

To answer.... No, I do not agree with the MJAA statement. I’m not Messianic. :thumbsup:

Lol, :thumbsup:

The problem is the question is 'loaded', the OP, is basically saying unless you are MJAA, you are not Messianic, in fact, in a previous thread, this poster is saying a Messianic Jew who is not part of MJAA is no longer a Messianic Jew, and does not agree with Messianic Judaism.
 
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Qnts2

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I looked at their web site. This is a very small organization.

Looking at their statement of faith, the side step the question about the Deity of Yeshua, (which usually means they are leaving that open or completely denied).

Their only mention of Yeshua in their statement of faith:

12. We believe with complete faith that Y'shua HaMashiach has come and with great joy we anticipate His return, and even though He may delay, nevertheless we think about His return every day.

Nothing about Yeshua's death for our sin. Or that it is only thru faith in Yeshua that we might be saved.

I would say that this group is claiming Messianic Judaism as their 'title' but are outside of the greater community of Messianic Judaism. The same way that Mormons claim Christianity but most Christians would not say the Mormon beliefs reflect Christianity.

They say:

The members of the Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Association, want to reverse this trend and return the word to its historical & traditional meaning. Therefore, you will not find traditional Christian teachings on this web site. The members of the OMJRA are Jewish. In fact, we are Torah-Observant Jews who cling to the ancient promise of a Jewish messiah. As a result, the OMJRA members do not subscribe to Christian doctrines or beliefs. our members do not seek to make converts to Christianity of our fellow Jews. Rather our members seek to promote Torah Observance to our people and to promote an understanding of Torah through out the nations.

Messianic Judaism is not about promoting Torah observance but about promoting the truth that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah. That they do not see salvation thru Yeshua alone as worth a mention, in their purpose or their statement of faith.

I looked at some of the links off their site and it is a diverse group, including the MJAA and also a site which promotes Torah observance in the Two House movement.



The list of affiliated congregations from their site:
Torah Observant Congregations

Torah observant congregations

Alabama

Beth Messiah, Chelsea Alabama, U.S.A, Phone (205) 566-9504, Email: Rabbi Herschberg

Kansas

Havurah Ami Echad, P.O. Box 1452, Independence, KS 67301, U.S.A.,Phone (620) 331-2781, Email: Rabbi Othniel

New York

Petah Tikvah, 165 Doncaster Road, Rochester, NY 14623, U.S.A., Phone (585) 475-1188,Website:Petah Tikvah Email: Rabbi Richard Chaimberlin

Oklahoma

Ruach V'Emet, Claremore, OK 74019, U.S.A.,Phone (405) 259-6728, Email: Rabbi Yaakov

B'Nai Israel, 5816 S. 129th E. Ave, Tulsa, OK 74134, U.S.A.,Phone (918) 251-2002, Email: Rabbi Earl Walters



Some other views...

The Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Association

The OMJRA is a theologically conservative association of messianic Jewish rabbis who willingly accept the yoke of Torah upon our lives. The members of this association also believe that we must be accountable to one another in accordance with scripture.

The OMJRA desires to establish credentials based on the highest quality and best trained rabbis in the messianic movement. through continuing education our member rabbis have the opportunity to hone their knowledge and research skills. Thereby becoming some of the best trained and most qualified rabbis in the messianic movement. To assist us in reaching our goal of rabbinic educational excellence the OMJRA is affiliated with the ABOUT-Torah Yeshiva as well as the Ruach V'Emet Research Institute.

Unfortunately, publishing quality research, and teachings often creates controversy within the messianic movement. As a result, the OMJRA has been accused of "Judaizing" and being legalists. However our members voluntarily choose to live in obedience to HaShem's will as expressed in the Torah, while maintaining our messianic identity. This is because research and training have demonstrated to us that this is the way Yeshua and his followers lived.

The OMJRA's Two Primary Goals

The first goal of this association is to establish a network via the internet for the purpose of providing continued education, training, encouragement, and support to our members. Further more we hope to provide counsel, share informational resources, and create an interactive forum where members can meet to discuss Halakic issues that are so critical to the well being and continued growth of the Torah-Observant messianic community.

The second and most important goal is to promote the validity and necessity of Torah observance amongst the leadership of the messianic movement. We realize that these are lofty goals but we remain confident, not in our own abilities, but in the sovereignty of HaShem and the obedience of those who hear his voice.

How The OMJRA Defines Messianic

Unfortunately, the word messianic has changed from its historical meaning. Historically this word was synonymous with Judaism in that Judaism was and is forever linked with the belief in a redemptive messiah.

Recent years have seen the term messianic become less Jewish and more Christian in its definition. As a result the term messianic has been redefined in a way that has removed the term from the realm of Jewish thought and brought it into the realm of Christian Theology.

The members of the Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Association, want to reverse this trend and return the word to its historical & traditional meaning. Therefore, you will not find traditional Christian teachings on this web site. The members of the OMJRA are Jewish. In fact, we are Torah-Observant Jews who cling to the ancient promise of a Jewish messiah. As a result, the OMJRA members do not subscribe to Christian doctrines or beliefs. our members do not seek to make converts to Christianity of our fellow Jews. Rather our members seek to promote Torah Observance to our people and to promote an understanding of Torah through out the nations.

Sent from my iPod touch using CF app
 
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Avodat

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In response to the OP question - no! I do not dis-agree with the organisation per se, but you can drive the proverbial coach and horses through the CF S of F based as it is, apparently, on MJAA doctrine. Btw. a 'standard' must be agreed by all, not a minority!

MJAA must be worried. The link in the OP (at the top) to their page produces a blank page and an apology that it is down. Perhaps they are having a re-think on their S of F in the light of the comments on these fora. :D
 
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Jerushabelle

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Lol, :thumbsup:

The problem is the question is 'loaded', the OP, is basically saying unless you are MJAA, you are not Messianic, in fact, in a previous thread, this poster is saying a Messianic Jew who is not part of MJAA is no longer a Messianic Jew, and does not agree with Messianic Judaism.

Isn't the MJAA SoF what governs this forum?
 
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etZion

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Isn't the MJAA SoF what governs this forum?

I don't know, I am newbie to this forum, and it is irregardless if it does per the discussion we are having, because the OP is arguing over the name Messianic Judaism, which is not bound to or by this Forum. In other words, Messianic Judaism exist whether this forum exist or not.
 
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SAM Wis

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My answer to the question that began this discussion: yes and no.
Clear as mud. :)

Though there is much to be appreciated in both these organizations efforts to articulate their understanding or "position" I also see a difficulty here with the interpretation that the "one Law/Torah" is not equally applicable to all those who call on the Name of the God of Yisrael.

Judah is part of Israel, not all of it. Judah has a gift of leadership that is seen in many places throughout Scripture YET all Judah does not yet yield to Yeshua haMaschiach. Judaism's traditions and study are deep and meaningful, but not uncontaminated any more than "Christianity" has pure unadulterated understanding.

I see a subtle shift in these words that quietly substitutes "divine love for Israel" as really meaning "divine love for Judah" which I find inadequate.

Just can't match this with One Law, One Flock, One Shepherd, One God.

We are still "on the way" to this intended state and need His wisdom and understanding in order to offer and receive wise counsel how to walk until He returns and makes it abundantly clear! When He does so, I really have no doubt that Judah will have a leadership in praise, but I do not see this as more "important" than the role any other member of the family has been called to fill.

So am I not "defined" as a Messianic believer though I am returning to His ancient paths in every way I understand and am able to pursue? I surely don't seem to "fit" even this much anywhere else.
 
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Qnts2

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Core Value #3

Yeshua is the fullness of Torah.
As long as theological statements have been codified, the Torah has been viewed against Grace. This phenomenon has colored the perception and understanding of many generations of people regarding Torah. People who have seen the world through the Christian worldview have, along with the many advantages, accepted a distorted view of Torah. To them, the Torah is bad, the Gospel is good. Gospel is life and freedom; Torah is seen as slavery and death. With this view as their starting point, it would have been impossible to avoid the inevitability of a negative view of the Law.

With the birth of the Messianic movement, Jewish believers began to have a new self-perception in which their Jewishness was something good and positive and not something to be "saved from." Yet the misperception of Torah persisted as that which was, at best, a "schoolmaster to lead one to Christ" and, at worst, "the temptress who seeks to seduce its victims from salvation by grace through the lure of a salvation of works righteousness."

The real problem with the Torah is not the Torah but the human misunderstanding of Scripture. The Torah was given by G-d at Mt. Sinai. Yeshua was more than a latter born Moshe. He is the Word who was in the Beginning, through whom the world was created. He is the G-d of Israel, the G-d who gave the Torah to the sons of Israel through the hand of Moshe. The commandments of the Torah are Yeshua's commandments, not an arbitrary set of rules or rituals. They are a revelation of the heart of G-d; they are a reflection of Yeshua's heart. They cannot be understood to be G-d's lesser commands. Yeshua's teachings do not permit such a view. Those who wish to be more like Him must follow the Torah's teachings because they are His very heart. This is the true meaning of the Torah as a schoolmaster to lead us to Messiah. The Torah is not a divine introduction service, arranging blind dates, after which its usefulness is completed. It is a schoolmaster, a teacher -- to guide and train us to become more like Him because this was how He lived and what was in His heart.

The Torah is not a lesser revelation of Yeshua, like an uncompleted puzzle. Simply attaching an addendum to a prayer or commandment does not make it any more complete than it was prior to the addendum. The mitzvah is already complete in that it reflects the heart of Yeshua. When a mitzvah is completed as it was intended when given, it reflects the heart of G-d. Our goal should not be to amend every prayer, commandment, and ritual with Messianic nomenclature. Rather, our goal should be to follow Torah, having faith and a desire to connect with G-d through the act of following. Surely, this was the life Yeshua lived and the life He desires His people to live. Every act of observance is an opportunity to connect with Him. He is the fullness of Torah. Our lives should be so full. Top

Core Value #4

The Jewish people are "us," not "them."
Like a boat that had drifted from its moorings, we were not cognizant of what was happening to us until a key event, conversation, or combination of factors jolted us awake to the realization that we were farther from our Jewish moorings than we had realized.

For most of us, experience in evangelical contexts taught us to look at Jews only as people to whom we ought to witness. For us, the subtext of every family gathering became "How can I bring the subject up?" and the objective in our relationships with Jewish family, friends and acquaintances became "How can I witness to them without their closing the door on the Gospel and on me?" As important as these issues are, we realize now how wrong it was for these evangelistic concerns to be the sole axis of measurement of relationship with other Jews, even our own family members. We became church-culture chameleons, adept at blending in, showing that even though we were Jews, "we weren't like the other Jews": we were real Christians, too. More often than we were prepared to admit, though, we felt ourselves uneasy strangers in a strange land of potluck suppers, hallelujahs, and obligatory right-wing politics. But we had been taught, "You can't go back to what you were. This sense of distance from the Jewish people, Jewish ways, and from family is the cost of discipleship, the cross you are called to gladly bear. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad." One day we discovered that we had become habituated to speaking of the Jewish community in third person. We awoke with a start.

Now we know we can go home again. In fact, we must go home again for, truly, there is no place like home. And home for Jews is Jewish life. No doubt, we will have to remodel that home a bit to properly accommodate Yeshua, our Messiah, but better to remodel our own home than to be a permanent guest at someone else's address.

We dare to believe that among the many mansions prepared for Yeshua's people, some have mezuzot on the doors. We dare to believe that by rediscovering and reclaiming our own identity as Jews, we will be better brothers and sisters to Gentiles who love our Messiah. In all aspects of life, we want to live in a Jewish neighborhood socially, culturally, conceptually so that we and our children and our children's children will not only call Yeshua Lord but also call the Jewish people "our people" and Jewish life "home."

Continued

Sent from my iPod touch using CF app

Although Stuart Dauerman (Messianic Rabbi) is considered to be somewhat controversial, he is within the scope of Messianic Judaism, and a Messianic Jewish perspective.

This is talking to Jewish believers, Messianic Jews, in this paper. It is true that some in the Christian community see a Jewish believer as someone who has turned from being Jewish to 'Christ. It is not just Stuart who has said such things. The founder of Jews for Jesus also made statements against this attitude. Moishe Rosen often said, that we do not turn from being Jewish to being a Christian. Being Jewish is not and was never a sin.

From the history section of the MJAA:

These factors lead many Jews to assume that to follow Yeshua is to leave the faith of their fathers and become non-Jews. The MJAA has worked to combat this misperception for nearly 90 years.

This sentiment is reflected in almost every group of Jewish believers.

Core value # 4

Also speaking to Jewish believers is very important in the Jewish life.

Jews are us, not them.

In the Passover seder, questions are asked by various sons. The rebellious son asks , 'what does this mean to you'. By saying you, he excludes himself from the people of Israel and the redemption from Egypt. I am doing this from memory, so these are not the exact wording from a Haggadah. But the Haggadah essentially says that had the rebellious son been alive at that time, he would not have been included in the redemption. In Jewish culture, we are a people. When someone does wrong, we are all ashamed and when someone does well, we are all happy. God treats us as a nation. When one sinned, we are all effected.

So, to move from the us, to a separation from the people, is not Jewish culturally.

This attitude is reflected throughout Messianic Judaism. We are members of the Jewish people. We are a part of the Jewish community.

Personally, there were so few Messianic Judaism synagogues when I first came to believe on Jesus, like most Messianic Jews, to have fellowship with believers in Yeshua I did go to a Church. (I took two years of studying scripture before I went to a church, because I always believed Christians Churches were anti-semitic). I did feel like a fish out of water in the Church, as the potlucks etc, and language, was definitely not Jewish. Few Christians in the U.S. involved in 'born again churches' realize that their services and culture is that of Anglo-Saxon Protestants. They think of their culture as Christian, rather the Anglo-Saxon Protestants, so confuse their cultural views with Bible believing.

But, I had a strong Jewish identity from living in a Jewish neighborhood, from a family which lived a Jewish life style. I was active in the synagogue so my life was centered around the activities in the synagogue, and had a strong Jewish support system and family. I did not have a lot of struggles with a confused identity. I knew I was Jewish.

So far, from what I have read, this group is Messianic Judaism, and the papers written to and for Jewish believers is accurate.

Now in core value # 2

If, in all its ordinances, the Torah addresses Gentiles as much as it does Jews, if it defines the life of the Church as much as it defines the life of the Jewish people, then what remains of Israel's unique character and calling? In the past Jews who entered the church were compelled to surrender Jewish observance and identity and, as a result, they were assimilated and they and their children lost any sense of being Jews. If, contrary to the Apostolic decree and the Pauline injunction, Gentiles in the church are now encouraged to live just like Messianic Jews, will not the same result occur?

Once again, this Messianic Judaism organization does not see a requirement for Gentiles to keep the Mosaic law. So this is Messianic Judaism and not One Law. However, I do believe if a Gentile feels called of God to keep the Mosaic law, then they should. It is not a requirement, it is a calling.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I have been repeatedly posting the statements of faith and the core values, or history of the Two largest Messianic Judaism organisations, only to find that it appears that many people on here who use the Messianic icon actually disagree with these organizations. Recently, someone said they disagree, and they are going to claim the name 'Messianic Judaism' and think the MJAA should call itself something different, for instance, Grace only Christians.

So, I am asking, any and all participants on the forum, do you agree with the following statement from this forum..



The Messianic Judaism Forum Statement of Purpose


The Messianic Community - a discussion and fellowship forum for all Messianic members.


A few things to know about Messianic Believers: *we are using the MJAA The Messianic Jewish Identity (MJAA) here to provide further explaination.


  • Main Stream Messianic Judaism affirms the Trinitarian nature of God-*The "Messianic Jewish identity" is wholly dependent on the person of Yeshua: God Himself come to earth to reconcile the Jewish people and all nations to Himself.
  • Messianic Believers are Jews and Gentiles who have embraced Yeshua as the Messiah of Israel (Redeemer of the World)-*The foundation of Messianic Judaism is each individual's personal relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through Messiah Yeshua.
  • Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians) and linked thru tradition and celebration to the Jewish culture world wide- *Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith.
  • Messianic Believers incorporate, affirm, and preserve the Jewish identity, Jewish customs, and Jewish style of worship, as they seek to be a light to the Jew first, then to the Nations.- *A Messianic Jew does not loose their Jewish identity when they choose to put their faith in the Jewish Messiah. Messianic Jews seek to embrace their Jewishness by meeting in congregational communities with other Jewish believers and by maintaining a Biblically Jewish expression of their faith. If Yeshua really is the Jewish Messiah of whom all the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke, then it is the most Jewish thing in the world to follow Him!
  • Messianic Believers share in a call to be a witness of the Grace and Love and Salvation Yeshua brings, but discourage counter missionary activity in their midst [Acts 20:28-30]- *Yeshua declared that no-one can comes to the Father - the God of Israel! - except through Him (John 14:6). Messianic Jews seek to share this way, this truth, and this life with their Jewish brothers and sisters.
To learn more about what Messianics believe please see the MJAA and the UMJC.



Although there are aspects of the MJAA that I may not see eye to eye with them on, I do agree with it.

As it concerns here, however, the forum SOP was put there by the directors of CHRISTIAN forums....with the MJAA endorsed and others agreeing to come into the forum/post in agreement with that if they were claim that they were Messianic Jewish (or Messianic) by the standards of the board directors.

And if that is not accepted, what is essentially happening is a hijacking of the forum for the purposes of what many in a majority wish it to be. Rather than finding forums that can suit the desires of others disagreeing with the SOP or Christian forums, the attempt has been to push anyone/everyone out disagreeing with the desires to not adhere to MJAA---like folks coming into a church and saying all not agreeing with them are not truly "believers" by their standard even as they dismiss what the standards of that specific church is about.

Needless to say, it can be very dishonorable...and many Messianic Jews/Jewish believers have noted it, either leaving outright or simply discussing elsewhere since they feel that what occurs here is the attempt by many within what appear to be splinter groups/others discounted by MJAA and other larger Messianic Jewish organizations for decades. As much as it may be said that it's about what the "majority want", IMHO, it is not about what others in the majority want anymore than it'd be about people coming into a country, immigrating within while ignoring the rules set and saying "We have a right to say what the laws SHOULD be!!!" even though they willfully disregard the previous rules that were set for entry.


This is not a really difficult concept to grasp, IMHO, as the same has been said on other forums. In example, should anyone willfully go against what the statement of purpose is for the Lutheran or the Eastern Orthodox forums, it doesn't matter whether or not someone disagrees due to seeing how there may be other places within the Lutheran and Orthodox camp that agree with them. The rules already set the boundaries for fellowship and anyone signing up to have discussion HERE on these boards was to walk within that---and if they disagreed, they'd be corrected...or kicked out altogether/told to go to other forums that'd support their specific definitions of how they feel things to be. For they were not entitled to simply do what they want since they didn't take the time to make the forum, nor did they show respect in seeking to live by the rules set.

The same dynamic occurs here....and not agreeing with the SOP is in many ways a reflection of the level of integrity many may or may not have if it cannot be honored. For no one denies that there are variations within the forum--and even within places associated with the MJAA, there are differneces of opinion. But the larger goals they have are what give the boundaries for others to debate in. If others disagree with those aspects, it doesn't mean that they're not necessarily MJish or that they're not Messianic. What it does mean is that any place associated with MJAA and supporting it is not to be the place that others dismissive of all things MJAA have a real right to be in....demanding it to go their way.


The moderators and CF Policy makers made a forum that was to be a place giving room for others supporting of MJism that they agreed with (MJAA)--and they've often made explicitly clear that NO one is to ignore that, nor try to take it further with the ideologies that anything deemed "Christian" is wicked/inferior to MJism. The issue of others not being allowed to either MOCK Christianity or belittle it was addressed by the mods MULTIPLE times, as it was against the rules for believers to do so if utilizing Christian forums since all of the faith groups/boards are seen as an expression of differing branches/aspects of Christianity. Coming into the forums and then trying to mock all things Christian is like going into an Hispanic church by renting a room in their church building (with their permission) so that another group can have a church...and then having that group denounce their Hispanic Hosts at all points/say their church is better than the Hispanic ones, even though the Hispanics made clear they could not rent their rooms if they were going to be blasting them at the same time.....for that is a break of contract as well as a matter of honor lost.

As other mods have actually noted the issue a couple of times and said that they would intervene sharply when things were reported, the only reason why alot of things have been going on may be due to how others have simply decided not to take anything directly to the top of Christian forums....yet.
 
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Avodat

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It is quite possible to disagree with aspects of the CF SOP without ceasing to be true to holding to a Messianic icon. The terminology is all over the place and I therefore disagree with what is actually written, rather than the truth it shows, but only in part.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Once again, this Messianic Judaism organization does not see a requirement for Gentiles to keep the Mosaic law. So this is Messianic Judaism and not One Law. However, I do believe if a Gentile feels called of God to keep the Mosaic law, then they should. It is not a requirement, it is a calling.

Good distinction that you pointed out.
 
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Qnts2

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Also from the Hashivenu site:

Core values #7

Hashivenu affirms the titanic contributions and complementary relationship of the historical Church and the Synagogue to the ennoblement and advancement of the human enterprise. We therefore encourage the Messianic Jewish community to avail itself of the insights of both institutions while critically evaluating the usefulness of such insights as we pursue maturation

While Messianic Judaism recognizes some issues in the Christian Church, we also see the born again Gentiles as members of the same body as Messianic Jews. We recognize the great things done by the Church who truly represented Yeshua and know that the Church has done a lot of things right, and that they have insights that would benefit us.

Almost every Messianic Judaism site seeks to recognize the Christian Church for the good they have done, and recognize we are not separated but the same body.

Some added these statements when it became and issue with those claiming Messianic Judaism would accuse the church of being pagan. Christianity is not pagan. We and born again Christians are members of the same body.
 
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anisavta

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Isn't the MJAA SoF what governs this forum?
My goodness no. This forum was created so that those who agree that Yeshua and Jews can co-exist, that Jews can believe in Messiah apart from the traditional Christian church have a place to discuss and fellowship. Where Gentiles can identify with their Jewish brothers and sisters and not be judged. It is not a platform for MJAA, UMJA, Chosen People or J4J.
To try to pin people down to which orginization they are affiliated with and then argue why they are wrong has never been the intent of this forum. Perhaps those who need such a forum should contact an admin and try to petition for subgroups within the greater MJ forum. IE - MJAA subgroup, J4J subgroup ...
This is suppose to be a safe place for Messianic Jews and Gentiles - however it is turning into a mine field of forced confrontations and threats of reports.
 
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Avodat

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My goodness no. This forum was created so that those who agree that Yeshua and Jews can co-exist, that Jews can believe in Messiah apart from the traditional Christian church have a place to discuss and fellowship. Where Gentiles can identify with their Jewish brothers and sisters and not be judged. It is not a platform for MJAA, UMJA, Chosen People or J4J.
To try to pin people down to which orginization they are affiliated with and then argue why they are wrong has never been the intent of this forum. Perhaps those who need such a forum should contact an admin and try to petition for subgroups within the greater MJ forum. IE - MJAA subgroup, J4J subgroup ...
This is suppose to be a safe place for Messianic Jews and Gentiles - however it is turning into a mine field of forced confrontations and threats of reports.

:thumbsup:
 
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