The mission of Methodists?

[jesmo]

I'm an outsider of the Methodist faith. I've heard through browsing videos that the Wesley school of thought is that since we inherited a sinful nature from the original sin event then through the holy spirit one can be purified and return to that Eden like the state of man which is perfectly sinless. Assuming that's all correct, what I've heard goes on to say that once a person has been purified through entire sanctification they then go on help heal the outside (non-Christian) world in some way.

Assuming that my understanding is correct, I was wondering if someone could elaborate on that and maybe give me a lead to some of Wesley's literature on the subject.

Thanks

 

[circuitrider]

Jesmo, that really doesn’t describe Methodist thought. What you are describing sounds more like “holiness” theology than Methodism. Wesley never said that we could become sinless. When he talked about Christian perfection he meant “perfect in love.” That is that we would love others as Christ loves. Not that we would be sinlesslgy perfect.

 

[Sarah G]

I always like this essay on John Wesley and sanctification. It explains a lot.


''There is one more valuable observation to be made concerning Wesley’s understanding – concerning this of perfection. Earlier in the paper it was mentioned that sin is still present in the believer’s life, no matter how far they are in the sanctification process. Wesley argues on account of Scripture that because mankind is bound to live a life currently in a fallen world and live a life currently in and from a fallen body, we all are prone to temptation, and therefore to sin. In addition, in his Plain Account of Christian Perfection Wesley remarks that there is no account of “any general state described in Scripture, from which a man cannot draw back to sin” (Wesley ch25). He speaks of perfection as sinlessness only available in heaven. This, the presence of sin cannot and should not be used as a valid measurement for the presence of sanctification. This, consequently leads to asking the question What then is a valid measurement? Or in other words – what is the essence of sanctification according to John Wesley?

“It is ‘perfect love’ (1 John 4:18). This is the essence of it” (Wesley ch26). Truly, this is as simple as it can be. Although some of today’s theologians have complicated this simple truth, Wesley would call back to Scripture’s Old and New Testament commandment expressed in fullness by the answer to the question of Jesus in Like 10:27 – “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself” (KJV). Even more – Wesley would go that far to suggest that this is “the end of the commandment… all the commandments in one.”

John Wesley and Sanctification – wideandhigh.com

 

[Maid Marie]

I'd say "perfect for God to use" vs. perfectly sinless. And by perfect for God to use, I mean love like He does and be mature in character, morals and spiritual walk. It doesn't mean sinless.

 

[Dave-W]

I have had email and forum-based discussions with 2 good brothers, one a Pentecostal Holiness pastor and the other a C o Nazarene pastor. Both claimed Wesleyan "Total Sanctification" sinlessness. And both defined that as not being aware of intentionally sinning.

I hold that sin is more than just intentional disobedience.

 

[Maid Marie]

I have had email and forum-based discussions with 2 good brothers, one a Pentecostal Holiness pastor and the other a C o Nazarene pastor. Both claimed Wesleyan "Total Sanctification" sinlessness. And both defined that as not being aware of intentionally sinning.

I hold that sin is more than just intentional disobedience.

An older Nazarene pastor would probably still hold to perfect sinlessness. Those who've started ministry more recently are going to be exposed to more "Wesleyan" and less "American Holiness Movement" type of views on holiness. Also, if the pastor received his or her training from only the course of study vs. seminary, that person will hold to more AHM type view of holiness.

Whenever I go before the board of ministry for my annual district license renewal interview before other district pastors, I only hear words encouraging my use of the definition of holiness as "perfect for God to use and perfectly loving". I know that if I were to say "sinless perfection" my theology instructor would gasp in horror.

 

[Dave-W]

An older Nazarene pastor would probably still hold to perfect sinlessness.

Yes - my understanding was that both of them were elderly.

"American Holiness Movement"

I thought that was just as prevalent in England as it was in the US.

 

[Maid Marie]

Yes - my understanding was that both of them were elderly.

Then yes, they will both say it means perfect sinlessness. Since the 70s with the publication of Wesley's works and a book by Mildred Bangs Wynkoop called Theology of Love, Nazarenes are viewing holiness and sanctification with different eyes. It is viewed as being perfect for God to use or for what he intended, mature in Christ, and perfectly loving.

 

[Dave-W]

Nazarenes are viewing holiness and sanctification with different eyes. It is viewed as being perfect for God to use or for what he intended, mature in Christ, and perfectly loving.

That sounds really good to me. I could never quite get the grasp of understanding absolute perfectionism. To me, those that claimed such a state did so by watering down their definition of sin.

 

[Maid Marie]

That sounds really good to me. I could never quite get the grasp of understanding absolute perfectionism. To me, those that claimed such a state did so by watering down their definition of sin.

Yeah, the problem with previous beliefs were that they misunderstood the word perfect. They viewed it with the Greek definition of beauty and behavior. The Hebrew understanding was that of maturity or perfect for use.

And IMHO, the previous understanding meant focusing on ME and my behavior. Have I sinned today? While the newer way focuses on God and his love - I need more of God and his love, and then I can share it with others... "Have I loved today?" That just sounds healthier to me.

 

[Dave-W]

And IMHO, the previous understanding meant focusing on ME and my behavior. Have I sinned today?

I have heard some christian analysts say that is the focus of all modern evangelical thought - personal holiness.