The missing piece of the YOU ARE PETER puzzle

[Root of Jesse]

Not if you are properly exegeting the text. Otherwise I could make the phone book say the same thing you just said someone could make the bible say. Proper exegesis involves all of the context. Those who ignore this are abusing the scripture, not using the scripture.

Who says if you're 'properly exegeting the text'? Who's authority? I agree that knowing the context is important, and that's where Sacred Tradition comes in.

 

[sunlover1]

Actually, you do need a Tradition to tell you what it means.

God doesn't put our salvation into any other man's hand.
No, Jesse, I can't agree with this statement.

Otherwise, you're reading it in your own vacuum, and as some have done, have figured out the Jesus wants them to set a bomb somewhere and blow up people. Yes, an extreme example.

Glad you admit it.
Some other extreme examples to other faith traditions would
be your group's interpretation of Marian verses.
We all have the very SAME SPIRIT OF GOD living in us and guiding
us to understand Scripture or to lead us to a church/faith group.
(I assume you too agree that you and i serve the very same God, Jehovah)

 

[Rick Otto]

According to Sola Scriptura, it doesn't matter if we use a tradition or not, as long as it doesn't violate scripture.

 

[Albion]

According to Sola Scriptura, it doesn't matter if we use a tradition or not, as long as it doesn't violate scripture.

Good! That's a true statement.

The trouble often is that people use the word (tradition) to mean whatever works for them at the moment. If it's not scripture, but it's being defended for any reason, call it "tradition." What some people in Lebanon speculated on a couple of thousand years ago is not tradition. What St. Soandso wrote is not tradition. What the church leaders decided to introduce into the church at any point is not tradition. What most of the people in this or that denomination think at any moment in time is not tradition.

But...they all get the stamp of approval by being called "tradition"--as the need arises, or course.

 

[Root of Jesse]

According to Sola Scriptura, it doesn't matter if we use a tradition or not, as long as it doesn't violate scripture.

Good! Then we agree. Glad that's settled!

 

[Root of Jesse]

God doesn't put our salvation into any other man's hand.
No, Jesse, I can't agree with this statement.

Who, do you believe, we put our salvation into? What man's hand?

(the answer is we don't put our salvation into any man's hand.)

Glad you admit it.
Some other extreme examples to other faith traditions would
be your group's interpretation of Marian verses.
We all have the very SAME SPIRIT OF GOD living in us and guiding
us to understand Scripture or to lead us to a church/faith group.
(I assume you too agree that you and i serve the very same God, Jehovah)

We have the same spirit, but different gifts. We do not all see Scripture with the same lens, and require an authority to tell us what it means. See the Eunuch and Philip.
I don't know what you think our interpretation of Marian verses is. So I don't know what you're saying, except that I know it's not extreme.

 

[Albion]

Bear in mind that he said "use" Tradition, i.e. employ tradition in order to properly understand Scripture, not to consider it an alternative to Scripture or its equal.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Good! That's a true statement.

The trouble often is that people use the word (tradition) to mean whatever works for them at the moment. If it's not scripture, but it's being defended for any reason, call it "tradition." What some people in Lebanon speculated on a couple of thousand years ago is not tradition. What St. Soandso wrote is not tradition. What the church leaders decided to introduce into the church at any point is not tradition. What most of the people in this or that denomination think at any moment in time is not tradition.

But...they all get the stamp of approval by being called "tradition"--as the need arises, or course.

Wrong. Of Course.

 

[concretecamper]

According to Sola Scriptura, it doesn't matter if we use a tradition or not, as long as it doesn't violate scripture.

If you could determine which interpretation of scripture people should not violate, you would be on to something. Maybe the answer is in the Bible?

 

[Albion]

If you could determine which interpretation of scripture people should not violate, you would be on to something. Maybe the answer is in the Bible?

Sola Scriptura is a term that refers to that which is our ultimate authority, not a term that describes how to use it properly or whose interpretation is correct.

If you don't get the first part of that correct, you have no chance of getting the second part right.

 

[concretecamper]

Sola Scriptura is a term that refers to that which is our ultimate authority, not a term that describes how to use it properly or whose interpretation is correct.

Ah....perhaps there is a need for a Rosetta stone

 

[Root of Jesse]

Sola Scriptura is a term that refers to that which is our ultimate authority, not a term that describes how to use it properly or whose interpretation is correct.

If you don't get the first part of that correct, you have no chance of getting the second part right.

Now you know how we feel about your understanding of Catholicism, Albion.

FWIW, we hold God as our ultimate authority. His Word, which is not limited to the Bible.

 

[Albion]

Now you know how we feel about your understanding of Catholicism, Albion.

I long have known that new Catholics think that they know everything just by holding membership. That other people who have, by comparison, many more years of education in these matters are thought to suddenly forget all of it the minute they join a different denomination is, frankly, uproariously funny to me.

FWIW, we hold God as our ultimate authority. His Word, which is not limited to the Bible.

That's just wording. Everyone knows that God is the ultimate authority. The question is on what he has given us to guide us. We say it's his word in revelation, the Scriptures, not manmade substitutions.

 

[concretecamper]

I long have known that new Catholics think that they know everything just by holding membership. That other people who have, by comparison, many more years of education in these matters are thought to suddenly forget all of it the minute they join a different denomination is, frankly, uproariously funny to me.


That's just wording. Everyone knows that God is the ultimate authority. The question is on what he has given us to guide us. We say it's his word in revelation, the Scriptures, not manmade substitutions.

What good is a guide with no instructions on how to interpret it

 

[Root of Jesse]

I long have known that new Catholics think that they know everything just by holding membership. That other people who have, by comparison, many more years of education in these matters are thought to suddenly forget all of it the minute they join a different denomination is, frankly, uproariously funny to me.

Yes, it's funny, isn't it, how people who've been life long Catholics, who slept or played their way through their classes in the faith in school, who barely went to Mass between baptism and confirmation, then went to a Catholic Church and demanded to be married in the faith (and the priest told them, basically, not until you understand your faith), then went to get married in a courthouse; it's funny how many of them go to a Protestant denomination, which often doesn't even celebrate the birth of our Lord with a worship service...very funny.
Those of us 'new' Catholics, with 10 years of daily study (which habits they may have gotten from the denomination they were born to, admittedly) do know more about their faith than many lifelong Catholics, sort of like how foreign-born naturalized citizens of the US know more of the history of the country.

That's just wording. Everyone knows that God is the ultimate authority. The question is on what he has given us to guide us. We say it's his word in revelation, the Scriptures, not manmade substitutions.

I think we know what you say. You limit God's word to what we've declared as Scripture. You forget that God speaks in varied and wondrous ways. We don't, and we know how to determine what is Tradition, and what is just traditions of men.

 

[Metal Minister]

Yes, it's funny, isn't it, how people who've been life long Catholics, who slept or played their way through their classes in the faith in school, who barely went to Mass between baptism and confirmation, then went to a Catholic Church and demanded to be married in the faith (and the priest told them, basically, not until you understand your faith), then went to get married in a courthouse; it's funny how many of them go to a Protestant denomination, which often doesn't even celebrate the birth of our Lord with a worship service...very funny.
Those of us 'new' Catholics, with 10 years of daily study (which habits they may have gotten from the denomination they were born to, admittedly) do know more about their faith than many lifelong Catholics, sort of like how foreign-born naturalized citizens of the US know more of the history of the country.

I think we know what you say. You limit God's word to what we've declared as Scripture. You forget that God speaks in varied and wondrous ways. We don't, and we know how to determine what is Tradition, and what is just traditions of men.

RoJ, did the old testament exist prior to an "infallible ruling" by the RCC? If so, then your statement of "what we've declared as scripture"(I'm assuming the "we" there is representative of the RCC) is an invalid statement, considering that was the scriptures for the early church. After the canon was closed at the death of the last apostle, the other books were being spread throughout the world by believers. They needed no infallible declaration by a church.

 

[Albion]

RoJ, did the old testament exist prior to an "infallible ruling" by the RCC? If so, then your statement of "what we've declared as scripture"(I'm assuming the "we" there is representative of the RCC) is an invalid statement, considering that was the scriptures for the early church. After the canon was closed at the death of the last apostle, the other books were being spread throughout the world by believers. They needed no infallible declaration by a church.

This history has been posted in reply to his claim only about twenty times that I can remember. It doesn't matter. The objective is to get in the last word, even if it's the same one.

 

[Root of Jesse]

RoJ, did the old testament exist prior to an "infallible ruling" by the RCC? If so, then your statement of "what we've declared as scripture"(I'm assuming the "we" there is representative of the RCC) is an invalid statement, considering that was the scriptures for the early church. After the canon was closed at the death of the last apostle, the other books were being spread throughout the world by believers. They needed no infallible declaration by a church.

There was no OT canon before the Catholic Church decided one.

 

[Albion]

There was no OT canon before the Catholic Church decided one.

It wasn't the "Catholic Church." All the churches of that era were non-denominational and included more of what are now the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox than the Roman churches and bishops. What's more, it is undeniably true that all the books that were finally collected together and approved were already recognized by the churches throughout the Empire as being inspired and were in use in those churches.

 

[Rick Otto]

I think we know what you say. You limit God's word to what we've declared as Scripture. You forget that God speaks in varied and wondrous ways. We don't, and we know how to determine what is Tradition, and what is just traditions of men.

I think you believe you know more than you actually do.
I not only stayed awake during catechism class, I observed the self contradictions and persistently questioned transubstantiation, for instance. So the holier than thou chorus falls flat on these ears, my friend.
We haven't forgotten God works in various and wonderful non-catholic ways.