The Minimum Wage Tradeoff

Erik Nelson · Feb 28, 2021

mark46 said:
There is, and always be, a great need for plumbers, carpenters, computer technicians, other technicians, and many others. Many are helped with training in a technical school.

"Technical School loans" ?

Those who benefit should pay (unless you're advocating charity, or perhaps scholarships).

If there is so much demand for those professions, such that people investing in the training necessary for those professions is guaranteed to be profitable...

then those very expected profits could justify loans...

under already-existing student loan like programs w/ nothing new

Erik Nelson · Feb 28, 2021

Ringo84 said:
One thing we could do about that is free college

"free" for whom, and "expensive" for whom else?

mark46 · Feb 28, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
So who should get ripped off? The tax payers or the lending companies?

and everyone else who paid their loans back in full

Ken-1122 · Feb 28, 2021

iluvatar5150 said:
Acquiring wealth often requires access to resources that are, themselves, a product of (or at least correlated with) having money.

Having money does make it much easier to make more, but that isn’t the only way to make a lot of money; many who make their fortunes have humble beginnings.

iluvatar5150 said:
Poverty perpetuates itself and we don't have as many systems in place as other countries to help people out of that poverty.

Having more systems than some countries and less than others doesn’t equal keeping people at the bottom.

iluvatar5150 said:
Because "millionaire" does not equate to "rich." A couple million is about the minimum needed for a modest, middle class retirement. A kid making $50k/yr out of college with responsible spending and saving habits (or without mountains of debt) can become a millionaire by his mid-40's without much trouble.

The link said millionaire, which means 1 million or more (most have more) but when you look at the billionaires, the same applies to them as well; that’s why I said our richest.
My point is, most of today’s richest did not inherit their fortune, the days of old money dominating those at the top have long been gone. Look at how many people making money hand over fist just posting youtube videos, or using online technology to start a business or enhance their current business; something that wasn’t an option just a few years ago. This idea that our current system keeps people at the bottom, that may have been the case in the distant past, but not in today’s economy.

Ringo84 · Feb 28, 2021

Erik Nelson said:
"free" for whom, and "expensive" for whom else?

Free for everyone.
Ringo

Ringo84 · Feb 28, 2021

mark46 said:
and everyone else who paid their loans back in full

Why should it be any concern of those people if other, younger people struggling with debt have their paid off?
Ringo

mark46 · Feb 28, 2021

Ringo84 said:
Why should it be any concern of those people if other, younger people struggling with debt have their paid off?
Ringo

You mean that someone who has paid off his $30K should be happy that you are being forgiven the debt? What a really stupid person he was for paying his debt. Why bother? Maybe we should ahve a jubilee and forgive all the debt, or all the debt of young people or poor people.

loveofourlord · Mar 1, 2021

OldWiseGuy said:
I think the problem is that too few are climbing up the ladder. They're all bunched up at the bottom.

it's not a ladder, it's pyramid, there are far less good jobs then there are people looking for them. your NEVER going to get enough jobs that pay living wages for everyone by expecting people to climb the leader, there just isn't enough room.

Biggest issue in the states is that the safety net has become a safety crutch. I'm for removing welfare and food stamps, but not in the right wing way, but because maybe people will realize just how messed up the US system is that many people can't live without them. it's a way for businesses to get away with terrible wages because the government will subsidize their greed.

iluvatar5150 · Mar 1, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Having money does make it much easier to make more, but that isn’t the only way to make a lot of money; many who make their fortunes have humble beginnings.

Having more systems than some countries and less than others doesn’t equal keeping people at the bottom.

The link said millionaire, which means 1 million or more (most have more) but when you look at the billionaires, the same applies to them as well; that’s why I said our richest.
My point is, most of today’s richest did not inherit their fortune, the days of old money dominating those at the top have long been gone. Look at how many people making money hand over fist just posting youtube videos, or using online technology to start a business or enhance their current business; something that wasn’t an option just a few years ago. This idea that our current system keeps people at the bottom, that may have been the case in the distant past, but not in today’s economy.

Your entire argument is based on looking at a handful of outliers who, by definition, are not representative of the larger population.

Yes, in America, if you’re somehow exceptional, then your potential for amassing wealth is greater here than probably anywhere else. If you’re one of the select few who’s going to become massively wealthy, then America is the place to be, because when we make folks rich, we make them very very rich.

But that phenomenon doesn’t extend to normal people in the middle of the pack. Our normal people don’t climb the ranks as easily as people in other countries. Our normal people are more likely to wind up stuck at whatever station they’re born.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 1, 2021

Ringo84 said:
Not everyone needs to go to college, that is true. The trades are perfectly valid and might actually pay more than a job that requires a college education. But those who want to go to college should not have to promise their firstborn child for tuition, and they should not have to go into debt for the rest of their lives to pay for it.

Student debt should also be forgiven.
Ringo

College grads out earn others by a $million over their lifetime. They should pay for their own education. Also colleges are choked with people that have no business being there. The failure and dropout rate among minorities is high indicating that many should never have been admitted in the first place. The whole enterprise is a mess.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 1, 2021

iluvatar5150 said:
I know plenty of people who advocate for a higher minimum wage. I don't know any of them who aren't concerned about the struggles faced by people with issues surrounding mental health, criminal records, or job training. For everybody I can think of, higher minimum wages are part of a broader set of policies they want to help the poor.

What I meant was that these 'casualties' are hidden within the general low paid demographic instead of being a separate group. Raising the minimum wage won't help these people much.

iluvatar5150 said:
These industries should start paying people to work in those jobs and should start paying for schools to set up training programs that cost less than a regular private university.

Many companies support such programs.

iluvatar5150 said:
Because "millionaire" does not equate to "rich." A couple million is about the minimum needed for a modest, middle class retirement. A kid making $50k/yr out of college with responsible spending and saving habits (or without mountains of debt) can become a millionaire by his mid-40's without much trouble.

A million dollars in net worth is the traditional benchmark for 'wealthy'. The figure given by others is subjective. Of course a million bucks isn't what it used to be, but it's a pretty tidy sum.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 1, 2021

Ringo84 said:
I'd love to know why.
Ringo

The feds usually have a one-size-fits-all policy for everything. The states can more accurately deal with regional differences and needs.

98cwitr · Mar 1, 2021

mark46 said:
We should consider the current situaion.

Folks who make the minimum wage and have a child are eligible for welfare, food stamps and other programs. Paying more reduces that welfare cost.

There are indeed lots of jobs that will be lost. I submit that many of those jobs SHOULD BE LOST. The obvious example is that of marginal small businesses that pay the minimum to their workers so that the family owners can just get by. What would happen if these businesses closed? Would the number of people eating out go down. No, of course not. More successful businesses would serve the public. These workers would need to find jobs at those establishments or elsewhere.

Let us say that we are now getting our meal at our local small Chinese restaurant for $25. That price is artificially low because of the sweat shop labor. If these marginal businesses were replaced by restaurants that could succeed if they charged us $35 because labor costs were higher, would society be better or worse off.
====================
Just BTW, many low cost stores have increased their labor costs. Last I heard, Walmart was not in danger because they pay their employees a minimum of $11 an hour in GA where it is acceptable to pay minimum federal levels. Walmart would survive well with the proposed schedule of minimum wages increase. After all, the current minimum wage (adjusted for inflation) is lower that when it was first implemented so many years ago.

All this will do is pave the incentives for automation. I welcome it, but as a supporter of small, local businesses, and a boycotter of Walmart, this "corporate appeal" is selling our country out, devaluing the dollar, and shipping jobs out of the US. One of the biggest reasons Trump won in 2016 was to get jobs back here state side. He did that and as a result we had the lowest unemployment numbers in history.

Ken-1122 · Mar 1, 2021

iluvatar5150 said:
Your entire argument is based on looking at a handful of outliers who, by definition, are not representative of the larger population.

Yes, in America, if you’re somehow exceptional, then your potential for amassing wealth is greater here than probably anywhere else. If you’re one of the select few who’s going to become massively wealthy, then America is the place to be, because when we make folks rich, we make them very very rich.

But that phenomenon doesn’t extend to normal people in the middle of the pack. Our normal people don’t climb the ranks as easily as people in other countries. Our normal people are more likely to wind up stuck at whatever station they’re born.

My entire argument is based on the idea that today more than anytime in history, you have the opportunity to acquire, or lose wealth. There are lots of things perhaps preventing the average person from getting rich, but the system is the least of their problems.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 1, 2021

loveofourlord said:
it's not a ladder, it's pyramid, there are far less good jobs then there are people looking for them. your NEVER going to get enough jobs that pay living wages for everyone by expecting people to climb the leader, there just isn't enough room.

Biggest issue in the states is that the safety net has become a safety crutch. I'm for removing welfare and food stamps, but not in the right wing way, but because maybe people will realize just how messed up the US system is that many people can't live without them. it's a way for businesses to get away with terrible wages because the government will subsidize their greed.

I like the pyramid pattern. As one moves up the pyramid over time earnings generally increase until wealth appears in the topmost layers. It's like an escalator always moving up. As long as you can stay on it you'll be fine.

OldWiseGuy · Mar 1, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
My entire argument is based on the idea that today more than anytime in history, you have the opportunity to acquire, or lose wealth. There are lots of things perhaps preventing the average person from getting rich, but the system is the least of their problems.

So true. With the right moves success is almost guaranteed, but it does take time.

Speedwell · Mar 1, 2021

OldWiseGuy said:
So true. With the right moves success is almost guaranteed, but it does take time.

What planet are you guys talking about?

Nithavela · Mar 1, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
My experience with raising the minimum wage

When I was a teenager, I got a job at McDonalds, I worked a whole year and got a 10% raise, and found myself in a position where I was able to afford more due to the increased buying power one hour of work provided me. Then minimum wage went up 10%. Now did I get a 10% raise? No! I worked there a whole year and was right back at minimum wage; then when all the prices went up (always happens when minimum wage increases) I found my increased buying power went away, so the only thing increasing minimum wage accomplished was to put more people like me on minimum wage. Raising minimum wage didn’t increase the buying power of an hours work for anybody, it only decreased the buying power for people like me who previously barely rose above minimum wage.

Seems like the fault is with McDonalds not applying according raises to their higher-than-minimum-wages payed workforce. A smart move to foster hate against higher minimum wages, I have to admit.

Ringo84 · Mar 1, 2021

mark46 said:
You mean that someone who has paid off his $30K should be happy that you are being forgiven the debt? What a really stupid person he was for paying his debt. Why bother? Maybe we should ahve a jubilee and forgive all the debt, or all the debt of young people or poor people.

I'd think that non selfish people would be thrilled to see younger people not have to struggle the same way they did.

To say that we have to keep the newer generations in debt for the rest of their lives because it'd be "unfair" to others is like saying that we have to stay in forever war in the Middle East because it'd be "unfair" to the soldiers that had alreayd died.
Ringo

Ringo84 · Mar 1, 2021

OldWiseGuy said:
College grads out earn others by a $million over their lifetime. They should pay for their own education. Also colleges are choked with people that have no business being there. The failure and dropout rate among minorities is high indicating that many should never have been admitted in the first place. The whole enterprise is a mess.

If it is the case that they outearn the trades by millions (this may not be true in all cases), then it seems economically feasible to me to pay for people's education.
Ringo

The Minimum Wage Tradeoff

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Separation of Church and State expert

Separation of Church and State expert

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Lord forgive me

Newbie

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Well-Known Member

you're in charge you can do it just get louis

Separation of Church and State expert

Separation of Church and State expert

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency