The Mediatress of All Grace?

[Boniface]

It seems to me its Nestorian heresy that is close.

Yes, it is indeed Nestorianism: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10755a.htm

Which was fully condemned by the Church at the Council of Ephesus in 430 a.d. What's more the Council officialy proclaimed and upheld the title of Mary, Mother of God.

The holy synod said: "Since in addition to the rest the most impious Nestorius has neither been willing to obey our citation, nor to receive the most holy and god-fearing bishops whom we sent to him, we have necessarily betaken ourselves to the examination of his impieties; and, having apprehended from his letters and from his writings, and from his recent sayings in this metropolis which have been reported, that his opinions and teachings are impious, we being necessarily impelled thereto both by the canons [for his contumacy] and by the letter [to Cyril] of our most holy father and colleague Celestine, Bishop of the Roman Church, with many tears have arrived at the following grievous sentence against him: Our Lord, Jesus Christ, Who has been blasphemed by him, has defined by this holy synod that the same Nestorius is excluded from all episcopal dignity and from every assembly of bishops.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05491a.htm

 

[NewToLife]

It is obvious. That is what makes your post so illogical.

If its obvious that mother does not equate to creator why do you continue to deny that Mary is God's mother on the basis that it supposedly implies she created Him? Ypi clearly have stated that it obviously implies no such thing. Your position is puzzling to say the least.

Now, back to the questions that you're trying so hard to avoid:

Given the above the answers to your question ought not to require an answer but to keep you happy here goes;

If Mary is the mother of God, then who created Mary

Mary being the mother of God in no way denies that God is her creator.

and wouldn't this make God half human?

No it wouldnt, it would of course make Christ fully human and fully God though. Standard Christology.

Who is God's father?

God has no human father, are you not familiar with the scriptures?

 

[MikeMcK]

If its obvious that mother does not equate to creator why do you continue to deny that Mary is God's mother on the basis that it supposedly implies she created Him?

Because Mary, in your scenario, could not have existed to be His mother.

Mary being the mother of God in no way denies that God is her creator.

But again, God did not exist.

No it wouldnt, it would of course make Christ fully human and fully God though. Standard Christology.

I see. So then God is fully human? Would you mind showing me where the Bible says anything about God being human?

God has no human father, are you not familiar with the scriptures?

Yes, I'm very familiar with the scriptures. I've been studying them for twenty years. That's why I'm able to see through this nonsense.

Now, if God has no father, then how did Mary conceive?

 

[NewToLife]

Because Mary, in your scenario, could not have existed to be His mother

Except we already established that mother does not equate to creator making your objection utterly meaningless.

But again, God did not exist.

See above, you really seem stuck on the mother creater thing.

see. So then God is fully human? Would you mind showing me where the Bible says anything about God being human?

Christ is fully God and Christ is fully human, I wasnt aware this was particularly controversial.

Yes, I'm very familiar with the scriptures. I've been studying them for twenty years. That's why I'm able to see through this nonsense.

This makes me chuckle bearing in mind your next question which is perfectly clearly answered in scripture;

Now, if God has no [human] father, then how did Mary conceive?

It seems you arent reading very carefully if you genuinely require me to answer that question for you.....

 

[Boniface]

I see. So then God is fully human? Would you mind showing me where the Bible says anything about God being human?

It is called the Hypostatic Union: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm

It states the Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% Man...do you deny this?

From the site...It occurs also in St. Paul's Epistles (2 Corinthians 9:4; 11:17; Hebrews 1:3-3:14),

The Nicene Creed:

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm
​

 

[MikeMcK]

It is called the Hypostatic Union: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm

It states the Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% Man...do you deny this?

I know what the hypostatic union is. I've been studying the scriptures for twenty years and teaching them for more than ten.

Believe me, you're the last person who should be condescending.

The Nicene Creed only addresses Christ's deity. It doesn't address the nature of God. It certainly doesn't say that God is human.

Now, would you mind showing me where the Bible says anything about being human? Because I'll be happy to show you Numbers 23:19 and John 4:24, both of which say that He is not.

 

[MikeMcK]

Except we already established that mother does not equate to creator making your objection utterly meaningless.

For a mother to give birth, she must first exist. For her to exist, she must first be created by God.

God had not yet been born, according to your scenario, so Mary cannot have existed.

See above, you really seem stuck on the mother creater thing.

No, I never said anything about "mother creator". That was you who introduced that idea to the thread.

Christ is fully God and Christ is fully human, I wasnt aware this was particularly controversial.

Christ, in His incarnation took on a human nature. That isn't the question.

Where in the Bible does it say that God is human?

This makes me chuckle bearing in mind your next question which is perfectly clearly answered in scripture

And yet, you're unable to show us where.

It seems you arent reading very carefully if you genuinely require me to answer that question for you.....

Once again, you're avoiding the question.

 

[Boniface]

I know what the hypostatic union is. I've been studying the scriptures for twenty years and teaching them for more than ten.

Believe me, you're the last person who should be condescending.

The Nicene Creed only addresses Christ's deity. It doesn't address the nature of God. It certainly doesn't say that God is human.

Now, would you mind showing me where the Bible says anything about being human? Because I'll be happy to show you Numbers 23:19 and John 4:24, both of which say that He is not.

The Nicene Creed:

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm
​

 

[simonthezealot]

I get the feeling we're drifting dangerously close to Mormonism.

Thanks, thought I was nuts.
I thought I was the only one seeing that.

 

[NewToLife]

God had not yet been born, according to your scenario, so Mary cannot have existed.

If you cant see that these 2 statements are in direct contradiction then I really cant see any real point in continuing the discussion.

No, I never said anything about "mother creator". That was you who introduced that idea to the thread.

 

[Boniface]

Now, would you mind showing me where the Bible says anything about being human? Because I'll be happy to show you Numbers 23:19 and John 4:24, both of which say that He is not.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (St. John 1:14)

Does Scripture compliment or contradict?

 

[MikeMcK]

The Nicene Creed:

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen." ​

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm​

OK. If you can't show us, I understand. I guess it's just better to let your silence speak for itself.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (St. John 1:14)

Does Scripture compliment or contradict?

Scripture compliments. Rather, in your case, scripture exposes.

John 1:14 is referring to the incarnation of Christ, not to the nature of God.

You asked to show you in the Nicene Creed where Jesus was made flesh

No, actually, I asked you to show us where in the Bible we're told that God is human....

You asked for scripture, I provided it....

Right. You cited a verse that tells us that Jesus took on a human nature in His incarnation, not that God is a human.

Um, Jesus IS God...that is the point.

Yes, Jesus is God. However, the verse you cited deals with the incarnation of Christ, not the nature of God.

 

[Boniface]

Mike,

You asked to show you in the Nicene Creed where Jesus was made flesh...I did (bolded in red). You asked for scripture, I provided it....

You state, "John 1:14 is referring to the incarnation of Christ, not to the nature of God"

Um, Jesus IS God...that is the point.

 

[setmeonfire]

ummm seems like the thread is going a little off topic. jesus said that he who does his will is his mothers brothers and sisters (Matt. 12:49) so christ answers the question himself who his mother is. its that simple. might we get back to the original question of mary being the dispenser of grace please? My issues witht his doctrine is that if mary had sucha large role as dispenser of grace that there would be a solid scripture to back it up? scripture is loaded with references to christs divinity. but mary is rarely talked about nevermind being taught as "medemtrix" "advocate" "helper" "benefactress" (979 Catechism). there is one mediator between god and men, jesus. if there were any other dispensers of grace would it had been said in that scripture?

 

[simonthezealot]

ummm seems like the thread is going a little off topic. jesus said that he who does his will is his mothers brothers and sisters (Matt. 12:49) so christ answers the question himself who his mother is. its that simple. might we get back to the original question of mary being the dispenser of grace please? My issues witht his doctrine is that if mary had sucha large role as dispenser of grace that there would be a solid scripture to back it up? scripture is loaded with references to christs divinity. but mary is rarely talked about nevermind being taught as "medemtrix" "advocate" "helper" "benefactress" (979 Catechism). there is one mediator between god and men, jesus. if there were any other dispensers of grace would it had been said in that scripture?

Yes your right, and I am curious what is a dispensing of grace?

 

[setmeonfire]

grace being unmerited (unearnable) favor with God. and mary is said to be able to give us this. though the bible never says of any other dispenser.....that is where the controversy lies

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Y'all seem to be talking past each other in the discussion about "Mother of God".

God the Father is fully God and not man. God the Holy Spirit is fully God and not man. But God the Son is fully God and fully man since the instant of the Incarnation. And He had to have a mother in order to be fully human.

Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, who is God.
Therefore Mary is the Mother of God.

She is not His Creator. She is not mother of the Holy Spirit. She is not mother of God the Father. But she is the mother of God the Son.

Now . . . . . . do you understand that the Church Council declared her to be Mother of God (Theotokos = Birthgiver of God) to protect the Truth that Jesus Christ is fully God as well as fully man, from the heresy that said He wasn't?

I truly hope this has helped someone on here, so that we all can at least know what we are saying.



Mary

 

[MikeMcK]

Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, who is God.
Therefore Mary is the Mother of God.

So then, who is His father? How can Mary be the mother of God if she required God to create her? Would this not mean that God is at least half human?

She is not mother of the Holy Spirit. She is not mother of God the Father. But she is the mother of God the Son.

I see. So then, Mary is only the mother of 1/3 of God.

Now . . . . . . do you understand that the Church Council declared her to be Mother of God (Theotokos = Birthgiver of God) to protect the Truth that Jesus Christ is fully God as well as fully man, from the heresy that said He wasn't?

I understand the history behind it, but essentially all they did was to trade one heresy for another.

 

[setmeonfire]

I understand the history behind it, but essentially all they did was to trade one heresy for another

amen. filtering out a gnat but swallowing a camel. there are more important things to talk about than whose mother this and that. matthew 12:48 explains who his mother was.

1timothy 1:3 "I urged you [to] command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies"

 

[TheListener]

Which would be a heresy, something the Church beleived & taught for 2000 years or something only made popular after the protestant revolt?

I'll trust the early Church fathers of whom some even knew the apostles themselves.