The Meaning of Predestination to this Non Calvinist

[toirewadokodesuka]

So, if I disagree with the idea of freewill, predestination.

 

[Bible2]

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #40:

How many people decide to accept christ because they
are affraid of hell, and not genuinly convicted?

People who are genuinely convicted can accept Christ
because they are afraid of hell, for they would both
be afraid of hell and want to accept Christ because
they are convicted that they are sinners who will go
to hell if they don't repent and accept Christ.

There's nothing wrong with fearing hell, for it is
ultimately the fear of God Himself, who is the only
one who will cast us into hell for our sins if we
don't repent and accept Christ (Luke 12:5).

The fear of God is an excellent thing, indeed it is
necessary (2 Corinthians 7:1, Proverbs 16:6, 3:7;
1 Peter 2:17, Revelation 14:7).

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #40:

The human will is not free in the true sense of
being free, i.e. liberated from all undesirable
forces (god, devil, the unconciousness, emotion,
conflicting reason, other personas and so on).

The human will is free in the true sense that no
outside forces ever make us choose to commit sin; we
choose to commit sin out of the lust of our own
hearts (James 1:13-15), and no outside forces can
ever corrupt our hearts (Mark 7:15,20-23).

The human will is also free in the true sense that no
outside forces ever make us choose to do the right
thing; God can work in us to want to do the right
thing and to actually do it (Philippians 2:13), but
He never forces us to do it. We can still freely
choose to harden our hearts against Him (Hebrews
3:15) and refuse to work out our own salvation with
fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12; 1 Peter 1:17).

God has no interest in human robots; He made us to
have free will and to be able to choose for ourselves
to do the right thing and not to do the wrong thing.
That is the only way He could logically reward us for
doing the right thing (Revelation 11:18) and punish
us for doing the wrong thing (2 Corinthians 5:10) or
failing to do the right thing (Luke 12:47).

 

[Bible2]

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #41:

So, if I disagree with the idea of freewill,
predestination.

Free will (Joshua 24:15) and predestination (Romans
9:11-24, Ephesians 1:4-11) are both true at the same
time. They aren't opposites, or contradictory.
Predestination doesn't take away free will.

 

[Absolute truth]

People who are genuinely convicted can accept Christ
because they are afraid of hell, for they would both
be afraid of hell and want to accept Christ because
they are convicted that they are sinners who will go
to hell if they don't repent and accept Christ.

There's nothing wrong with fearing hell, for it is
ultimately the fear of God Himself, who is the only
one who will cast us into hell for our sins if we
don't repent and accept Christ (Luke 12:5).

The fear of God is an excellent thing, indeed it is
necessary (2 Corinthians 7:1, Proverbs 16:6, 3:7;
1 Peter 2:17, Revelation 14:7).



The human will is free in the true sense that no
outside forces ever make us choose to commit sin; we
choose to commit sin out of the lust of our own
hearts (James 1:13-15), and no outside forces can
ever corrupt our hearts (Mark 7:15,20-23).

The human will is also free in the true sense that no
outside forces ever make us choose to do the right
thing; God can work in us to want to do the right
thing and to actually do it (Philippians 2:13), but
He never forces us to do it. We can still freely
choose to harden our hearts against Him (Hebrews
3:15) and refuse to work out our own salvation with
fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12; 1 Peter 1:17).

God has no interest in human robots; He made us to
have free will and to be able to choose for ourselves
to do the right thing and not to do the wrong thing.
That is the only way He could logically reward us for
doing the right thing (Revelation 11:18) and punish
us for doing the wrong thing (2 Corinthians 5:10) or
failing to do the right thing (Luke 12:47).

Hi bible2.

Please note I have used the color red to highlight all the unscriptural assertions you have made here.

I will take the time later today to refute this unscriptural heresy spewed about this post. I am amazed at how little you have understood the very passages you offer as proof of your words.

The biggest heresy is the "free" will. Then to add to that you selfrighteously impose that you have chose to do good apart from any outside influence (Such as GOD).

Sounds a little familiar. I believe reading about this concerning the King of Babylon. He too believed that he did all according to his own "free" will and God cut him down to the ground in order to show him that "The heavens do rule", not puny little man with his weak little will that is free from nothing. Our wills are weak and fragile and it takes nothing more than a small breath to cause its choices.

Another is the blasphemous teachings of an eternal torment in fire and you state that God will cast the majoriy of His creation into this eternal screamfest.

So many blasphemous statements all compacted into one post.

I will show just how scripture refutes such heresy and scripture will also show that those who teach such blasphemy are worse off than Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment. I am just glad it is NOT an eternal judgment as Pagan Christendom so proudly boasts of.

God Bless, Dave

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

People who are genuinely convicted can accept Christ because they are afraid of hell, for they would both
be afraid of hell and want to accept Christ because
they are convicted that they are sinners who will go
to hell if they don't repent and accept Christ.

There's nothing wrong with fearing hell, for it is
ultimately the fear of God Himself, who is the only
one who will cast us into hell for our sins if we
don't repent and accept Christ (Luke 12:5).

The fear of God is an excellent thing, indeed it is
necessary (2 Corinthians 7:1, Proverbs 16:6, 3:7;
1 Peter 2:17, Revelation 14:7).

I've considered a few ways of looking at "fear", 1. Fear of hell and seperation, 2. Fear of sin and the effects it has upon the self, 3. Fear of God, what he is, and what he's capable of, 4. Fear as love and admiratoin of God, 5. Fear, an application of holiness (the god persona in man).

Fear can have more than one context, but I wasn't talking about fear. I was illustrating variations within motive. Fear can be a motive, but so can love, admiration, conviction and so on. What humans feel when they make a certain choice, is not always the same. There are other internal and external factors to consider. Most of which we're not fully concious of.

The human will is free in the true sense that no
outside forces ever make us choose to commit sin; we
choose to commit sin out of the lust of our own
hearts (James 1:13-15), and no outside forces can
ever corrupt our hearts (Mark 7:15,20-23).

The human will is also free in the true sense that no
outside forces ever make us choose to do the right
thing; God can work in us to want to do the right
thing and to actually do it (Philippians 2:13), but
He never forces us to do it. We can still freely
choose to harden our hearts against Him (Hebrews
3:15) and refuse to work out our own salvation with
fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12; 1 Peter 1:17).

God has no interest in human robots; He made us to
have free will and to be able to choose for ourselves
to do the right thing and not to do the wrong thing.
That is the only way He could logically reward us for
doing the right thing (Revelation 11:18) and punish
us for doing the wrong thing (2 Corinthians 5:10) or
failing to do the right thing (Luke 12:47).

James 1:13-15 >> Yes, God doesn't tempt man (James 1:13-15), Satan does (Matthew 4:3), but he does however "lead us into temptation" (Matthew 6:13, Jesus' prayer validates this). >> Job 1-30 >> Satan tempted Job with many oppertunities to sin (Job 1:11, 2.9), but Job considered those temptations a taking away from God, not Satan (Job 2:10; 1:21). Even Satan considered it a taking away from God (Job 1:11). And the Lord commanded Satan to tempt Job (Job 1:12). [Not a traditional way of looking at Satan.]

Mark 7:15, 20-23 >> Mark 7:5 >> The context is food "entering into him" (7:15, i.e. the mouth), and not "outside forces" (God, Satan, humanity and so on).

Philippians 2:12 + Philippians 2:13 >> figure out ("work out", phrase) + "your own salvation" + "with fear and trembling" + because ("For") + "it is God" + "which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Hebrews 3:15 >> When a person hardens their heart, it is "through the deceitfulness of sin" (Hebrews 3:13, sin persona). There is also the self, as a persona to consider. The image of god, god persona. Historic, biological, and cultural things at work in the personality, both concious and unconcious. And so on. These personas are interconnected, making the personality complex. Technically, whatever a person does, is effected by unconcious characteristics of his own makeup. In the true sense of being free, we are not, because we are not fully concious. Absolution (freedom) requires absolution (conciousness).

1 Peter 1:17 >> Peter addressing the elect children of God, not mankind. (1 Peter 1-2)

Revelation 11:18 >> ?

2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:47 >> And that which we do is based on that which we know, and that which influences us, diverse personalities, unconcious personalities, thoughts, perceptions, making us humans very complex. There are also external forces at work in us, God and the Devil, influencing us, i.e. when God speaks to us, it influences us. When anything is done to us by something else it has an impact on us, and thus an impact on our outcomes.
______________________
I've responded the best I can to your verses, now consider this :

Humans constitute 3 major things :

> the mind (logos, associated with "thought" and "reason"),
> the body (eros,... "desire" & "appetite" + "sin"),
> and the soul/spirit (thymos,... "emotion" & "spirit" + "image of God").

The body and soul/spirit enable the mind with +6 senses, to help the mind process and understand whats going on in the world :
> Sight,
> Hearing,
> Smell,
> Taste,
> Touch,
> and Supernatural sense.

Lacking in one or more of these senses will cause the mind to lack in capability. When a person thinks, the capability thereof is determined by the senses. These things have an internal influence on thought.

Thought is determined by a number of influences :

Historic (the past)
> Origin : Physiological and biological development, genetic makeup, evolution, adaptations, reproduction and nutrition.
> Civilization : Hunter-gatherer evolution, domestification, agreculture, technology, formation of society, military (protection), government (administration, democracy & communism), religion, values, rise of revolutionary ideas and technologies, urbanised economy, education, scientific advancements, transport, energy development, social globalization, art, and creativity.
> Habitat & Population : Environment and settlement structure. Habitat influences population, pollution and climate change. Early settlements depended on water, other natural resources, lifestyle, fertile land for growing crops, grazing livestock, seasonally hunting populations of prey. Habitat is altered by certain methods : + Irrigation (water to soil, for farming), + Urban planning (ordering and designing of settlements, dealing with built and social environments of urbanized municipalities and communities.), + Construction (process of building infrastructure : things that support an economy, roads, water supply, wastewater, stormwater, power supply, flood management, recreation, and so on), + Transport (transport industries : infrastructure, vehicles and operations : how operated, financing, legalities and policies), + Manufacturing goods (raw materials to products for sale to consumers, how products are made, engineering, industrial design), + Deforestation (Conversion of forested areas to non forested areas : for arable land- growing crops, Pasture- grazing livestock, urbanization- human created structures, logged area, or wasteland. Due to overpopulation, and promotes shaping climate and geography, reducing biodiversity.), + Desertification (degredation of land due to human use and climatic influences.) All of which have an effect on the human personality.

Biological (the body)
> Physiology & Genetics : hieght, weight, locomotion, hair, color, teeth, eyes and mutations. Diseases.
> Life Cycle : Pregnancy, birth, death and burial.
> Diet : Food science of what we eat.

Psychological (the mind)
> Conciousness & Thought : Mental behaviours and disorders, brain functions, perception, learning, problem solving, memory, attention, language and emotion. Intellectual, cognitive, neural, social, and moral development.
> Motivation & emotion : Force of desire behind actions. Satisfaction. Behavior based on financial, moral and coercive incentives. Demonic or divine incentives (religion). Love, admiration, joy, hate, sorrow.
> Sexuality & Love : Intimacy, bonds, hierarchies, gratification, orientation, preference, libido, other sexual behaviors, cultural norms, religious beliefs, social customs and psychosexual development.

Cultural (the arts)
> Language & Communication : Literacy, communication technologies. How we understand one another.
> Spirituality & Religion : Theology, faith, belief systems, supernatural, divine, moral codes, parctices, values, institutions, rituals, afterlife, origins, religious cosmology, eschatology, deities, soul, spirit, purpose, philosophy, science, and mysticism.
> Philosophy & Self-reflection : Investigation, analysis, development of ideas at a general, abstract and fundamental level. Logic, ontology, epistemology, axiology, humanity, god, and connections.
> Art, music, and literature :
> Science and technology :
> Race and ethnicity : Ancestry, visible traits. Biological traits. Lead to variant treatment and impact social identity, giving rise to racism and the theory of identity politics.
> Society, government and politics : Society- organized association of people for religious, benevolent, cultural, scientific, political, patriotic, or other purpose. Society is agreeable on something. Government- Administration, rules and orders about society. Politics- process people make decisions. Forms of government : republic, monarchy, social democracy, military dictatorship and theocracy. All have a direct relationship to economics.
> War : Conflict between societies. Use of military. Process of governmental politics.
> Trade and economics : Trade- exchange of goods and services, via a market of sorts. A form of economics. Economics- social science studies : production, distribution, trade, and consumotion of goods, microeconomics and macroeconomics. Micro- individual agents (households and businessess), Macro- economy as a whole (aggregate supply, demand for money capital and commodities). Capital- Cash flow, financial wealth, the value that supports an organization, wealth. Commodity- something for which there is demand, supplied without qualitative differentiation. No difference in supply. Copper is copper, while stereos can be different.

There are quite a number of things that influence thought, some of which aren't always concious. Hence, the idea of unconciousness. Conciousness and unconciousness. Thought is also influenced by both internal and external factors. This is why the will is not 100% free.

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

Free will (Joshua 24:15) and predestination (Romans
9:11-24, Ephesians 1:4-11) are both true at the same
time. They aren't opposites, or contradictory.
Predestination doesn't take away free will.

Joshua 24:15 >> How does that illustrate free will?

"They aren't opposites, or contradictory."

Predestination defines the cosmos as influenced by God... free will defines an aspect of the cosmos as uninfluenced by God...

Therefore they are opposite?

 

[Bible2]

Absolute truth posted in message #44:

The biggest heresy is the "free" will. Then to add to
that you selfrighteously impose that you have chose
to do good apart from any outside influence (Such as
GOD).

Actually, free will isn't a heresy. Believers don't
choose to do good apart from any outside influence,
for it is God who works in believers both to will
and to do His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). But
God never forces believers to do good; they still
have to choose to work out their own salvation with
fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12; 1 Peter 1:17),
and not harden their hearts against God (Hebrews
3:15).

Absolute truth posted in message #44:

Another is the blasphemous teachings of an eternal
torment in fire and you state that God will cast the
majoriy of His creation into this eternal screamfest.

Eternal torment of the unsaved in fire isn't a
blasphemous teaching, but is clearly taught in the
scriptures (Revelation 14:10-11, 20:10,15, Matthew
25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

The majority of mankind will be unsaved because God
has chosen to save only a relatively few people
(Matthew 22:14, 7:14). Mankind, even all together,
is so infinitesimal that it's less than nothing
compared with God (Isaiah 40:15,17). So it would be
no loss at all to God even if no one were saved. This
of course is completely unacceptable to proud, sinful
man, who thinks that he's so great, and so important
and precious to God that God could not possibly damn
him for his sins to eternal torment in hellfire, and
that if God does do that, then God must be utterly
evil.

This no doubt will be part of the Antichrist's
Luciferian deception, which will portray YHWH to the
world as a cruel, heartless tyrant who only wants
wonderful mankind to suffer forever in hell, while
the dragon Lucifer will be portrayed as the loving
benefactor of mankind, man's true God (Revelation
13:4), who would never send anyone to hell no matter
what they did, for with Lucifer there is no "sin",
only "the pleasures of the gods", "true expressions
of love" which he wants all of mankind to discover,
and to freely enjoy forever, without any guilt at all.

 

[Bible2]

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #45:

Hebrews 3:15 >> When a person hardens their heart, it
is "through the deceitfulness of sin" (Hebrews 3:13,
sin persona).

Yes, it is because they want to continue in a sin
without guilt that believers can begin to reject
God's Word and replace it with man-made teachings
(2 Timothy 4:3-4) and the doctrines of devils
(1 Timothy 4:1-2).

 

[Bible2]

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #46:

Joshua 24:15 >> How does that illustrate free will?

Joshua 24:15 illustrates free will by referring to
choice. Without free will, there is no choice, only
programming.

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #46:

"They aren't opposites, or contradictory."

Predestination defines the cosmos as influenced by
God... free will defines an aspect of the cosmos as
uninfluenced by God...

Therefore they are opposite?

Predestination defines the cosmos as determined by
God. Free will is an aspect of the cosmos which is
influenced by God and innumerable other forces, but
which always leaves the final decision up to the
individual himself. God, in His foreknowledge, knew
what all of our decisions would be in this cosmos
before He ever made it. There were innumerable other
cosmoses which He could have created in which we
made any number of different choices, but He chose
to create that one cosmos which would bring Him the
greatest pleasure (Revelation 4:11) as it offered
Him the best opportunity to reveal His wrath, power,
glory, mercy, and wisdom (Romans 9:22-23, Ephesians
3:10).

 

[MamaZ]

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

 

[Absolute truth]

Actually, free will isn't a heresy. Believers don't
choose to do good apart from any outside influence,
for it is God who works in believers both to will
and to do His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). But
God never forces believers to do good; they still
have to choose to work out their own salvation with
fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12; 1 Peter 1:17),
and not harden their hearts against God (Hebrews
3:15).

You are aproaching scripture from a false premise especially dealing with the word "salvation". Salvation and "save" are the equivelent to healing or heal. We have assurance of a final salvation (or healing) although God is speaking to us in a relative sense. It is the work of the spirit in us that leads us into all truth and it is through trials and tribulations that we are lead to righteousness and the putting off of iniquity. This is our salvation/healing. "For when thy judgments are in the earth, the world will learn righteousness".

In learning righteousness we also find salvation/healing. Salvation is not being saved from an eternal torment as you are assuming. Salvation is being healed of our nature and carnal mind, dieing to the flesh, overcoming the world etc, etc. None of this is of ourselves "lest any man should boast". You are claiming a salvation that you by your own sovereign free will have attained. Think about it, according to the doctrine of freewill, God merely offers salvation but man has to choose to be saved or choose not to be saved. In this choosing God plays no part and forces no one to choose to be saved. So in essence salvation is completely and sovereignly up to the persons freewill choices to be saved. Well that sounds like an invitation for boasting to me. I make good choices and you make evil choices. "I thank you God that you have not made me like that tax collector over their". Sound familiar? Look what I have done with mine own freewill!!!!

Eternal torment of the unsaved in fire isn't a
blasphemous teaching, but is clearly taught in the
scriptures (Revelation 14:10-11, 20:10,15, Matthew
25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

This is not eternal anything. The words are "aionios", "aion". This words are age abiding. These are mistranslation of greek words. I do not have time to get into that right now so heres a link for you. Is everlasting scriptural?

The majority of mankind will be unsaved because God
has chosen to save only a relatively few people
(Matthew 22:14, 7:14). Mankind, even all together,
is so infinitesimal that it's less than nothing
compared with God (Isaiah 40:15,17). So it would be
no loss at all to God even if no one were saved. This
of course is completely unacceptable to proud, sinful
man, who thinks that he's so great, and so important
and precious to God that God could not possibly damn
him for his sins to eternal torment in hellfire, and
that if God does do that, then God must be utterly
evil.

No, no, no, I am not saying God is evil I am saying the doctrine of eternal torment is evil which is a doctrine of man, not God and certainly not in the scriptures. This is clearly an imagination clearly from the mind of sinful man. And speaking of sinful man and being so infinitesimal in Gods eyes let us view just how much God does not care for man...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Your statement is so blasphemous you have no idea. Let me put it in perspective for you. God soooooo loved the whole world that he GAVE His OOOOOONNNNNLLLLYYYYYY BEGOTTEN SON. If you are a parent put yourself into Gods position here. Could there be anyone in this world you would give the life of your only child for? Not merely just to die, but to be brutally and savagely beat, mocked, spit on, stabbed, insulted, laughed at while they die???????? This is the most loaded question you may ever face in your life and I hope you consider the blasphemous downplay of not only the love of God for all His creation but the very sacrifice of Jesus for His very life in order to redeem us to Him.

1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

Is this the gospel you teach of loving one another? You teach that its ok to hate your enemy because they are too infinitesimal to care about. I can understand this coming from a man but God is love and so loves the world contrary to your unscriptural blasphemous renderings of scripture. I am sorry if I seem a little disgusted, but I am. These relentless doctrines of devils wears on me sometimes. I pray God opens your eyes to this heresy. In my discussions with you you seem to ignore everything said except what you yourself believe apart from scripture no matter how much scripture opposes your theology.

This no doubt will be part of the Antichrist's
Luciferian deception, which will portray YHWH to the
world as a cruel, heartless tyrant who only wants
wonderful mankind to suffer forever in hell, while
the dragon Lucifer will be portrayed as the loving
benefactor of mankind, man's true God (Revelation
13:4), who would never send anyone to hell no matter
what they did, for with Lucifer there is no "sin",
only "the pleasures of the gods", "true expressions
of love" which he wants all of mankind to discover,
and to freely enjoy forever, without any guilt at all.

Its a shame that you view this word lucifer as a name for Satan/antichrist since Lucifer is also a mistranslation. This word is only found once in scripture and even strongs Hebrew/Greek concordance defines it as a name given to the king of babylon (although also incorrect). The word here should be "howl" which is not a name or title but an action. "howl ye, son of the morning". Again I do not have time to go into this either so I will give yet another link. The lucifer hoax.

And speaking of the antichrist. Again, it is a shame that you view this entity as somewhere OUT THERE rather than IN HERE. If you are constantly looking for the beast in the world you will miss the one inside of you that we are commanded to work out with fear and trembling in order have it removed from us.

Seriously consider the source of your theology and pray God opens your eyes to this beast within.

May God bless you and keep you and lead you into all truth by HIS FREE WILL.

God bless, Dave

 

[Absolute truth]

Free will (Joshua 24:15) and predestination (Romans
9:11-24, Ephesians 1:4-11) are both true at the same
time. They aren't opposites, or contradictory.
Predestination doesn't take away free will.

Predestination is not the same as prediction. God does not predict what we will do or not do and predestinate us according to that forsight.

Heres an anoalogy....

If I want a house built to my specifications I draw up a draft and plan for putting it together. I am predestinating the whole job from beginning to end. I predict everything I need for supplies how many men I will need to accomplish my goal in the time period I require. I then predestinate all these necessities together so I WILL accomplish that which I predestinated them to do. No matter what, my house will be built because I have planned and purposed it to the final detail.

Now God too has predestinated all of His plans and purposes according to His will and purpose to come to pass regardless of the will of the individual.

All mankind is concluded in unbleif and blindness to truth. You cannot freely choose to believe in something you cannot see. It takes God to come in and open those eyes and ears and only then WILL YOU CHOOSE to do His will. Once seeing the truth you cannot freely choose not to see it as truth and that which you see definitively changes your choices. It is not within man to direct his own steps.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Now who is in control of those steps????? You? Me? Noooo....

Psa 85:13 Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of his steps.
Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

If you want truth turn to the scriptures not your preconcieved indoctrinated ideas of the will and purpose and plan of God.

God Bless, Dave

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

1. Not being a synergist and affirming that Jesus is the Savior, I disagree with the basic point of your position.

2. I think you are confusing foreknowledge with predestination.


But thank you. It was an interesting read.


Pax


- Josiah





,

 

[Albion]

2. I think you are confusing foreknowledge with predestination.

I think you're right that he's trying to fit predestination into a free will framework, but it looks more to me like he's relegating "predestination" to the general purposes of God while conveniently ignoring the Biblical testimony that individuals are elected by God to eternal life. No discussion of this subject can leave out the elect.

 

[Bible2]

Absolute truth posted in message #51:

Salvation is not being saved from an eternal torment
as you are assuming.

Salvation is being saved from God's wrath
(1 Thessalonians 5:9, John 3:36), which wrath is
ultimately eternal torment in the lake of fire and
brimstone (Revelation 14:10-11, 20:10,15, Matthew
25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

Absolute truth posted in message #51:

You are claiming a salvation that you by your own
sovereign free will have attained.

Nobody can attain salvation by their will, unless it
is God's will for them to become saved (John 6:44,65,
1:13, Romans 9:16, Acts 13:48b).

No one can boast over their salvation because God
doesn't choose to save people based on their good
works before they got saved (Ephesians 2:8, Titus
3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). Everyone is a horrible,
inveterate sinner before God saves them (Romans
3:9-12, Ephesians 2:1-5).

Absolute truth posted in message #51:

This is not eternal anything. The words are
"aionios", "aion".

The punishment of the unsaved will be just as eternal
as the life of the saved (Matthew 25:46). The torment
of the unsaved in God's wrath will be just as forever
as the life of God (Revelation 14:10-11, 15:7).

Absolute truth posted in message #51:

No, no, no, I am not saying God is evil I am saying
the doctrine of eternal torment is evil which is a
doctrine of man, not God and certainly not in the
scriptures. This is clearly an imagination clearly
from the mind of sinful man. And speaking of sinful
man and being so infinitesimal in Gods eyes let us
view just how much God does not care for man...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave
his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in
him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Saying that the doctrine of eternal torment is evil
is in effect saying that God is evil, for God's Word
clearly teaches eternal torment (Revelation 14:10-11,
20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

God can love the world without loving everyone in the
world, just as someone can love television without
loving every show on television. God hates some
people and so has made them the vessels of His wrath
fitted to destruction (Romans 9:13-22). They will
not see eternal life (John 3:36), but only damnation
(John 5:29).

Absolute truth posted in message #51:

You teach that its ok to hate your enemy because they
are too infinitesimal to care about.

Christians cannot hate their enemies (Matthew
5:43-44) or harm them in any way (Matthew 5:39,
26:52). God can (Deuteronomy 32:41-43).

Absolute truth posted in message #51:

... God is love ...

God is not only love; He is also a consuming fire
(Hebrews 12:29) who destroys people (Deuteronomy 9:3),
even with everlasting destruction (2 Thessalonians
1:7-9, Matthew 10:28, Mark 9:45-46).

 

[Bible2]

Absolute truth posted in message #52:

Predestination is not the same as prediction. God
does not predict what we will do or not do and
predestinate us according to that forsight.

Heres an anoalogy....

If I want a house built to my specifications I draw
up a draft and plan for putting it together. I am
predestinating the whole job from beginning to end.
I predict everything I need for supplies how many men
I will need to accomplish my goal in the time period
I require. I then predestinate all these necessities
together so I WILL accomplish that which I
predestinated them to do. No matter what, my house
will be built because I have planned and purposed it
to the final detail.

Predestination is indeed not the same as prediction.
God indeed does not predict what we will do or not do
and predestinate us according to that foresight.
Instead, predestination is in effect the equivalent
of recorded history.

Here's an analogy. A conductor wishes to present a
"Free Will Symphony", where each member of the
orchestra will play whatever they want. But he wants
their combined music to sound as good as possible. So
he gathers his orchestra and sets up a movie camera
to record the orchestra playing whatever it wants for
90 minutes. The first take sounds awful, total
cacophony, so he tells everyone to take a break and
come back and do it again, this time with each person
playing something a least a little different than what
they did before. The second time it sounds a little
better but it's still not good enough. So the
conductor tells everyone to go home and that they can
try again a couple of times the next day.

This goes on for a few days without the conductor
being satisfied. Then, finally, one day a sound
arises from the orchestra that is truly amazing, like
nothing anyone has ever heard before. It pleases the
conductor so much that he decides to go with it. He
develops the movie film for that session and shows it
off to everyone in the musical world at a great
premiere in a fancy movie theater.

As the film is being shown in the theater, every
action performed on the screen by every member of the
orchestra is performed out of their own free will, and
yet every action performed on the screen by every
member of the orchestra was totally predestined before
the film ever started rolling.

Absolute truth posted in message #52:

Once seeing the truth you cannot freely choose not
to see it as truth and that which you see
definitively changes your choices.

Once seeing the truth believers can freely choose to
no longer see it as truth (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy
4:3-4), and in this way they can lose their salvation
(Hebrews 6:4-8).

Absolute truth posted in message #52:

Psa 85:13 Righteousness shall go before him; and
shall set us in the way of his steps.
Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD
directeth his steps.
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not
in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct
his steps.

Psalms 85:13 means that God can set people in the way
of righteousness, not that He will force them against
their will to remain in that way (2 Peter 2:15,21).
Believers can still willfully commit sin, and so lose
their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Proverbs 16:9 and Jeremiah 10:23 mean that we
shouldn't follow the way that our own heart devises
(Proverbs 28:26, 14:12, Jeremiah 17:9), but the way
which God directs (Psalms 23:3).

 

[Absolute truth]

Hi Bible 2,

I will not say anything other than "May God be with you, and I will pray for you".

God bless, Dave

 

[tulc]

The Bible says,

2 Thes. 2:1. Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2. that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? (NASB, 1995)

Will those who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior go through the tribulation if it occurs in their life time? Of course they will. The Bible says so and I believe it and so did all Christians till 1830.

The pre-tribulation rapture theory is so ridiculous than it is nearly universally absent from all academic studies of the Gospels, Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians and The Revelation. The scholars don’t believe it and they don’t think that it makes enough sense to bother to refute it; therefore they simply ignore it as nonsense. The really sad things about the doctrine, however, is that it teaches Christians, contrary to what the Bible teaches, that they need not prepare for the Great Tribulation, and that it throws into confusion New Testament texts regarding the saints, the elect, the Church, the judgment, and a whole host of others Biblical subjects.

QFT!
tulc(hey! why can't I rep you?)

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

Joshua 24:15 illustrates free will by referring to choice. Without free will, there is no choice, only programming.

Isn't that like saying squares refers to red squares in the following quote? :

A box made out of squares...

"Without free will, there is no choice, only programming."

Or maybe, "without free will, there is no [free] choice, only programming"?

Choice is based upon the self (biology, psychology, history & culture = structure)

Computer programs are based on structure too?

Predestination defines the cosmos as determined by
God.

a + 3 = 5 is determined/influenced by what a equals? Whats the difference?

Free will is an aspect of the cosmos which is
influenced by God and innumerable other forces, but
which always leaves the final decision up to the
individual himself.

The self is a structure of biology, psychology, history and culture.

In essence, what you're saying "final decision up to the individual himself" is the same as saying :

The final choice is determined/influenced by our environment?

God, in His foreknowledge, knew
what all of our decisions would be in this cosmos
before He ever made it. There were innumerable other
cosmoses which He could have created in which we
made any number of different choices, but He chose
to create that one cosmos which would bring Him the
greatest pleasure (Revelation 4:11) as it offered
Him the best opportunity to reveal His wrath, power,
glory, mercy, and wisdom (Romans 9:22-23, Ephesians
3:10).

Revelation 4:11 > How does this support your ideas of free will?
Romans 9:22-23 > Wessels fitted (???) for distruction?
Ephesians 3:10 > ?

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 1:13-15 >> Yes, God doesn't tempt man (James 1:13-15), Satan does (Matthew 4:3), but he does however "lead us into temptation" (Matthew 6:13, Jesus' prayer validates this). >> Job 1-30 >> Satan tempted Job with many oppertunities to sin (Job 1:11, 2.9), but Job considered those temptations a taking away from God, not Satan (Job 2:10; 1:21). Even Satan considered it a taking away from God (Job 1:11). And the Lord commanded Satan to tempt Job (Job 1:12). [Not a traditional way of looking at Satan.]

 

[Bible2]

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #59:

"Originally Posted by Bible2
Joshua 24:15 illustrates free will by referring to
choice. Without free will, there is no choice, only
programming."

Isn't that like saying squares refers to red squares
in the following quote? :

"A box made out of squares..."

Actually, no, it would be like saying that "squares"
refers to red squares in the following quote:

"A red box made out of squares..."

Joshua 24:15 refers to people having the ability to
make a choice. That requires free will because if
they had no free will then they would have no choice,
just as the quote above requires that the squares are
red because if they weren't red then the box would
not be red.

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #59:

"Without free will, there is no choice, only
programming."

Or maybe, "without free will, there is no [free]
choice, only programming"?

Choice is based upon the self (biology, psychology,
history & culture = structure)

Computer programs are based on structure too?

Free will doesn't mean that one can choose anything
at all. For example, someone who is five foot two
inches tall can't choose to become an NBA player,
just as someone who was born in India can't choose to
become the U.S. President. So someone's biology and
history can constrict his choices in life.

But his will is still free in the true sense that no
one can make him do anything he doesn't want to do, or
make him not do anything he wants to do and is able
to do based on his biology and history.

The point of free will is that God had no interest in
making human robots who could do nothing but what
He had pre-programmed them to do, whether they liked
it or not. Instead, God created human children who
have the ability to choose to do or not do the right
thing and the ability to choose to do or not do the
wrong thing.

If people didn't have this ability then God could not
logically reward people for choosing to do the right
thing (Matthew 25:21) or punish them for choosing
to do the wrong thing (2 Corinthians 5:10-11) or
choosing not to do the right thing (Luke 12:47,
Matthew 25:26-30).

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #59:

"Originally Posted by Bible2
Predestination defines the cosmos as determined by
God."

a + 3 = 5 is determined/influenced by what a equals?
Whats the difference?

"Determined" and "influenced" are not equal insofar
as one person can be influenced by a second person to
do some action without the second person determining
the choice of the first person to do that action, in
the sense of taking away the first person's free
will; the first person, because he has free will, can
choose to reject the attempt of the second person to
influence his choice of action.

And this can be for good or for ill. It can be for
good when we choose to reject someone's attempt to
influence us to do evil (Luke 4:7-8). And it can be
for evil when we choose to reject someone's attempt
to influence us to do good (Hebrews 3:15).

With regard to the statement "Predestination defines
the cosmos as determined by God", in the analogous
equation a + 3 = 5, "a" would represent our free will
actions, "3" would represent the biological and
historical limitation on those actions, and "=5" would
represent God's predestination of all of our free-
willed actions as well as the biological and
historical limitation on those actions; "a" is
restricted to only one value (2) by "=5" and "3".

But then how can "a" represent free will? Only within
a context greater than one equation. In algebra, "a"
is called a "variable" because in itself it can
represent any number at all. It represents different
numbers in different equations. For example:

a + 1 = 2
a + 3 = 5
a + 6 = 9

Out of all the possible equations in which "a" could
be involved, for us to choose just one equation to
represent this cosmos doesn't mean that "a" ceases
to be a variable. In the same way, out of all the
possible cosmoses (sequences of events) in which
free will would be involved, for God to choose to
create just one cosmos (one sequence of events)
doesn't mean that free will ceases to be free.

It would be like a teacher who writes on his
blackboard a sequence of "a's" like this:

a
a
a

Then he turns to a student and says "choose a
number". The student says "1", and the teacher
writes "1. --" before the first "a". Then the teacher
says again, "choose a number", and the student says
"uh, 2", and the teacher writes "2. --" before the
second "a". Then the teacher says again, "choose a
number", and the student laughs and says "okay, uh,
3", and the teacher writes "3. --" before the third
"a", so that the blackboard reads:

1. -- a
2. -- a
3. -- a

Then the teacher adds his own figures to the board,
so that it reads:

1. -- a + 1 = 2
2. -- a + 3 = 5
3. -- a + 6 = 9

Then he step back and says "Okay, now I will pick the
equation that pleases me best", and he erases the
top and bottom equations so that the board reads
only:

2. -- a + 3 = 5

Now the value of "a" is determined to only one value
by the teacher; it's the only value of "a" that he
has permitted to exist on the board. And yet that
value of "a" is still the free-willed choice of the
student; the student can't claim that the teacher
forced him to choose that value for "a".

It's the same way with our free-willed actions in
this cosmos. Even though they are all predetermined
by God, they still are all chosen solely by our own
free will; God never forces us to choose them.

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #59:

The self is a structure of biology, psychology,
history and culture.

In essence, what you're saying "final decision up to
the individual himself" is the same as saying :

The final choice is determined/influenced by our
environment?

That would only be the case if materialism were true,
if nothing existed in the cosmos but matter and
mechanical operations upon matter, so that the cosmos
would be nothing but a gigantic clockwork built and
set in motion by God, in which we would be nothing
but automatons, mere cogs in the clockwork.

But God wasn't interested in building human cogs, but
creating actual children with free will. Materialism
isn't true, because God has given each of us a spirit
(1 Thessalonians 5:23), the movements of which aren't
determined by any mechanical forces, but by our own
free will, just as the movements of God's own Spirit
aren't determined by any mechanical forces, but by
His own free will. Indeed, our spirits come from
God's own Spirit (Genesis 2:7); we are made in His
image (Genesis 1:27).

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #59:

"Originally Posted by Bible2
God, in His foreknowledge, knew
what all of our decisions would be in this cosmos
before He ever made it. There were innumerable other
cosmoses which He could have created in which we
made any number of different choices, but He chose
to create that one cosmos which would bring Him the
greatest pleasure (Revelation 4:11) as it offered
Him the best opportunity to reveal His wrath, power,
glory, mercy, and wisdom (Romans 9:22-23, Ephesians
3:10)."

Revelation 4:11 > How does this support your ideas of
free will? Romans 9:22-23 > Wessels fitted (???) for
distruction? Ephesians 3:10 > ?

Revelation 4:11, Romans 9:22-23, and Ephesians 3:10
don't contradict free will, just as in the analogy
of the equations the teacher's choosing that one
equation that pleased him best didn't contradict the
free will of the student who chose the value for "a".