The Meaning of Predestination to this Non Calvinist

[Bible2]

MamaZ posted in message #20:

Those of us that are Christs are not going to go
through the great tribulation. For we are not subject
to God wrath. The seven seals are indeed the pouring
out of Gods wrath for the citizens of earth.

We who are Christ's need to prepare ourselves to go
through the great tribulation, and endure it with
patience and faith unto the end:

Revelation 14:12 ...Here is the patience of the
saints: here are they that keep the commandments of
God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,
Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord
from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit ...

Matthew 24:9 ...Then shall they deliver you up to be
afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated
of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray
one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall
deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of
many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same
shall be saved.

Hebrews 3:14 ...For we are made partakers of Christ,
if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast
unto the end ...

--

Regarding God's wrath, we who are Christ's will go
through the great tribulation without being subject
to God's wrath, for no one who has obtained salvation
is subject to God's wrath:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 ...For God hath not appointed us
to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus
Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with him.

--

Regarding the seven seals of the tribulation
(Revelation 6), nothing requires that they are the
pouring out of God's wrath. The martyrs who will be
killed in the fifth seal (Revelation 6:11b) will not
be killed by God's wrath.

 

[lamblion]

Examine the context of those scriptures. To whom were they given? Are they spoken to the church or to Isreal? Do they contradict other scriptures that teach the opposite?

Be sure, as a bible believing christian, that you know the context of each scripture you attempt to use to support a theory. anyone can use scripture to prove a point, but can someone retain the totality of the scriptures and still prove that point?

 

[lamblion]

We who are Christ's need to prepare ourselves to go
through the great tribulation, and endure it with
patience and faith unto the end:

Revelation 14:12 ...Here is the patience of the
saints: here are they that keep the commandments of
God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,
Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord
from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit ...

Matthew 24:9 ...Then shall they deliver you up to be
afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated
of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray
one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall
deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of
many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same
shall be saved.

Hebrews 3:14 ...For we are made partakers of Christ,
if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast
unto the end ...

--

Regarding God's wrath, we who are Christ's will go
through the great tribulation without being subject
to God's wrath, for no one who has obtained salvation
is subject to God's wrath:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 ...For God hath not appointed us
to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus
Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with him.

--

Regarding the seven seals of the tribulation
(Revelation 6), nothing requires that they are the
pouring out of God's wrath. The martyrs who will be
killed in the fifth seal (Revelation 6:11b) will not
be killed by God's wrath.

How then do we distinguish the rapture from the second coming? If the church will go through the great tribulation, when will the rapture happen?

Do not the scriptures teach that Christ will end the tribulation with his second coming? If so, how do we include christ coming for His bride?

Again, make sure that you know both the context and the audience of the scriptures that you use, becuase never in the scriptures do the tribulation and the bride of the lamb coinside.

Only saved jews are saved gentiles. these are the saints of the tribulation.

 

[MamaZ]

Regarding God's wrath, we who are Christ's will go
through the great tribulation without being subject
to God's wrath, for no one who has obtained salvation
is subject to God's wrath:

One cannot go through the great tribulation and not suffer Gods wrath.

 

[Bible2]

lamblion posted in message #22:

Examine the context of those scriptures. To whom were
they given? Are they spoken to the church or to
Isreal? Do they contradict other scriptures that
teach the opposite?

Be sure, as a bible believing christian, that you
know the context of each scripture you attempt to use
to support a theory. anyone can use scripture to
prove a point, but can someone retain the totality of
the scriptures and still prove that point?

Revelation 14:12-13, like all of Revelation, is
spoken to the Church (Revelation 1:1, 22:16).
Revelation 14:12-13 is referring to those of us with
the one faith of Jesus who will suffer and die in the
tribulation. Everyone with the one faith of Jesus is
part of His one body, the Church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

Matthew 24:9-13, like John 14:3, is spoken to the
Church. Matthew 24:9-13 is referring to those of us
in the Church who will be hated and killed for the
name of Jesus during the tribulation.

Hebrews 3:14, like Colossians 1:23, is spoken to the
Church.

Neither Revelation 14:12-13, nor Matthew 24:9-13, nor
Hebrews 3:14 contradicts any other scriptures, for
no scripture teaches that the Church won't go through
the tribulation, or that those in the Church can't
depart from the faith and so lose their salvation
(1 Timothy 4:1, Romans 11:20b-22).

 

[Bible2]

lamblion posted in message #23:

How then do we distinguish the rapture from the
second coming? If the church will go through the
great tribulation, when will the rapture happen?

Do not the scriptures teach that Christ will end the
tribulation with his second coming? If so, how do we
include christ coming for His bride?

Again, make sure that you know both the context and
the audience of the scriptures that you use, becuase
never in the scriptures do the tribulation and the
bride of the lamb coinside.

Only saved jews are saved gentiles. these are the
saints of the tribulation.

The Bible doesn't distinguish the rapture from the
second coming insofar as the rapture will happen at
the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17;
2 Thessalonians 2:1). There's no third coming of
Christ.

The Church will go through the tribulation
(Revelation 14:12) and the rapture will happen after
the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).
Christ's coming to gather together the Church must
destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

No scripture says that Christ will come for His Bride
before the tribulation or that He will then take her
into the third heaven. The marriage of the Lamb Jesus
to His Bride the Church doesn't happen until after
the tribulation (Revelation 19:7). The Church will be
caught up only as high as the clouds to meet Jesus in
the air on His way down to the earth at His second
coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). After the Church
has been judged (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and
married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, it will mount
white horses and descend back down from the sky (the
first heaven) with Jesus to reign on the earth with
Him for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:14-20:6).

In the scriptures the tribulation and the Bride of
the Lamb do coincide, for Revelation 14:12 refers
to those of us who have the one faith of Jesus who
will be in the tribulation, and everyone with the one
faith of Jesus is part of His one Body (Ephesians
4:4-5), which is His Bride (Ephesians 5:30-32).

Saved Jews aren't saved Gentiles, but all saved Jews
and all saved Gentiles are part of the Body of
Christ, the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

 

[Bible2]

MamaZ posted in message #24:

One cannot go through the great tribulation and not
suffer Gods wrath.

Those of us who have obtained salvation will go
through the tribulation without suffering God's
wrath, for nothing requires that any of the seals
(Revelation 6) or trumpets (Revelation chapters 8-9)
of the tribulation are God's wrath, and none of the
vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16) will be directed
against us (Isaiah 26:20) as we wait patiently for
Jesus' coming (Revelation 16:15; 1 Peter 1:13).

 

[Absolute truth]

Yes, I am, but with this caveat.

I don't believe that we can do it on our own.

We need the grace of God. However, if we seek this grace, and follow his will to the best of our ability, the sacrifice of Jesus will atone for our shortcomings.

We must cooperate with God's grace.

Theres a few problems with your theology here. I am just looking to help a bit if I may.

You state that you believe that predestination and election are pare predetermined by the fact that God, in His forknowledge, knows that we will do good. Then you state your reasoning for this and that is "I dont believe we can do it on our own".

The problem you have in contrast to scripture is that Jesus Christ is "the author and finisher of your faith". And "For who hath first given to God that He should recompense?". If Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith (our faith includes all things related to our relationship with God) and God recompenses no one becasue no one can ever give anything to Him they didnt first recieve from Him. Are you following me?

Even our faith comes from Jesus by His spirit. Our faith is nothing of ourselves, our faith IS the faith OF Christ in us. We dont even have understanding until the Father first reveals it to us for flesh and blood cannot see it. It is all by the spirit.

To get to the point here, our cooperation is caused by God in the first place. This is why the elect throw their crowns at the feet of Christ. Because it is then that they acknowledge that there was nothing of themselves and all of Christ. Let me prove this in scripture.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

You see it is the faith OF Jesus that is given unto all and upon all them that believe. Not because they believed first, but because their belief is caused by recieving the faith OF Christ. Now that recieving is based solely on Gods election of the vessils of honor in which He has made ready to recieve faith. Again this is based solely on the purpose and pleasure of God, not one thing we have done or would do makes us anymore deserving of it over the vessils of dishonor. "For there is no difference: For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.".

Now before you state that Paul here is speaking of the heathen lost out there only allow scripture to clarify just who is good and who is not using even Jesus as an example.

Luk 18:19And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Even Jesus was strict on this. There is none good and there is none that should be recompensed for anything they do towards God due to God already giving it to them to do in the first place. It would be like me giving you $20 to hold for a second and when you give it back to me you ask me to pay you back.

Are you beginning to see what the scriptures are saying?

I apologize for the length of my post here but theres nothing I can do about that if I am to explain this simple truth. I have one more point to make. It's short since most of it is covered above.

Next you state "I dont believe we can do it on our own" and "We need the grace of God. However, if we seek this grace, and follow His will to the best of our ability, the sacrifice of Jesus will atone for our shortcomings".

I would just like to clarify again, we can do nothing of ourselves. Not even seek God in the first place. All our actions are cause and effect and God is the cause and giver of all things. Our circumstances always define our path and God is in charge of every circumstance we experience. We make choices based on those circumstances and God places those circumstances in our lives to cause us to take a certian path that is according to His will and purpose for our lives.

If God were to leave us to seeking Him on our own with our own (nonexistant) freewill just listen to what choices we would make according to scripture. Again I quote...

Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This would be you and me fully if God did not move and drive and drag us to according to His PREDESTINATION for our lives. This is what "predestination" is. God uses His forknowledge as a tool to put exactly what is needed into the life of those He has prechosen according to His purpose to CAUSE them to walk the walk He has PREORDAINED them to walk in.

Jesus has already attoned for the sins (shortcomings) of the whole world for ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT of the glory of God. If Gods grace is dependant on you or I seeking for it (there is none that seeketh God, no, NOT ONE) than that grace ceases to be grace and becomes more of a reward. Grace automatically abounds over sin. This is the power of Gods grace shown in Christ Jesus and His attonment. While we were yet in our sins He died for us. ALL of us.

Jesus is the author and finisher and giver of faith to all those whom the Father gives Him out of God's predestination.

I know this seems like a big theology debate everytime it is brought up in these forums but it does not have to be if the scriptures define our theology instead of our theology defining the scriptures.

God Bless, Dave

 

[MamaZ]

Those of us who have obtained salvation will go
through the tribulation without suffering God's
wrath, for nothing requires that any of the seals
(Revelation 6) or trumpets (Revelation chapters 8-9)
of the tribulation are God's wrath, and none of the
vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16) will be directed
against us (Isaiah 26:20) as we wait patiently for
Jesus' coming (Revelation 16:15; 1 Peter 1:13).

If one is to live on earth during the great tribulation they will indeed suffer the wrath of God. For even the moon will not give its light.. In Isaiah this is speaking to the Isrealites not to the church of Christ. For Isreal will be chastized during this time so that the remenant will be saved.

 

[JimfromOhio]

God will always accomplish His purposes in His eternal time. We must remember that God does not see time from our perspective. It does not mean that God does not recognize time. It does not say that there is no time with God, but time does not impact God the way it impacts us. What is taught in the Bible, is that we are chosen for salvation and nowhere in the Scripture does it say that God chooses people to be damned. Predestination simply identifies the point prior to time when God determined that He would elect. Paul wrote in Romans 8 that we are: "Predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son."

 

[Bible2]

Absolute truth posted in message #28:

You state that you believe that predestination and
election are pare predetermined by the fact that God,
in His forknowledge, knows that we will do good.

God doesn't predestine/elect us because He has
foreknowledge that we will do good. Rather, He
predestines/elects us not based on any of our works,
but solely based on His own will (Titus 3:5;
2 Timothy 1:9, John 1:13, Romans 9:11-23).

Absolute truth posted in message #28:

Even our faith comes from Jesus by His spirit. Our
faith is nothing of ourselves, our faith IS the faith
OF Christ in us. We dont even have understanding
until the Father first reveals it to us for flesh and
blood cannot see it. It is all by the spirit.

That's exactly right. People can't believe in Jesus
unless God the Father chooses to draw them to Jesus
(John 6:44,65). Only those who have been ordained by
the Father to eternal life will believe in Jesus
(Acts 13:48b). Faith itself is a gift from God the
Father, not based on any of our works (Ephesians
2:8-9).

Absolute truth posted in message #28:

To get to the point here, our cooperation is caused
by God in the first place.

Actually, while God works in believers to cooperate
with Him (Philippians 2:13), He doesn't turn them
into marionettes; they still have to, by their own
free will, make an effort to cooperate with Him
(Philippians 2:12b); they still have to consciously
not harden their hearts against Him (Hebrews 3:15).

Absolute truth posted in message #28:

This is why the elect throw their crowns at the feet
of Christ. Because it is then that they acknowledge
that there was nothing of themselves and all of
Christ.

That's right, we can't take credit for any good works
of faith which we do because there's no way we could
have done them apart from God's doing them in us; it
is God who works all of our good works of faith in us
(Isaiah 26:12b). Without Him we can't do any good
works of faith (John 15:5).

At the same time, God doesn't take away our free
will, we can still willfully break ourselves off from
God (John 15:6), still willfully deny Him, and so
lose our salvation (2 Timothy 2:12b).

Absolute truth posted in message #28:

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by
faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that
believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the
glory of God ...

When God gives us faith in Jesus, He doesn't turn us
into robots; we can still willfully depart from that
faith (1 Timothy 4:1), willfully depart from God's
goodness, and so lose our salvation (Romans
11:20b-22).

Absolute truth posted in message #28:

There is none good and there is none that should be
recompensed for anything they do towards God due to
God already giving it to them to do in the first
place. It would be like me giving you $20 to hold for
a second and when you give it back to me you ask me to
pay you back.

It's true that there is none good but God (Mark
10:18), but God will still reward believers for their
good works of faith (Matthew 16:27; 2 Corinthians
5:10), even though it was God who gave them that
faith in the first place, in whatever measure He
pleased (Luke 19:16-19). We must beware of willfully
not doing any good works of faith, for if we don't do
any good works of faith we will lose our salvation
(Matthew 25:26,30, Titus 1:16, James 2:24; 1 Peter
1:17, Romans 12:3).

Absolute truth posted in message #28:

All our actions are cause and effect and God is the
cause and giver of all things. Our circumstances
always define our path and God is in charge of every
circumstance we experience. We make choices based on
those circumstances and God places those
circumstances in our lives to cause us to take a
certian path that is according to His will and
purpose for our lives.

If God were to leave us to seeking Him on our own
with our own (nonexistant) freewill just listen to
what choices we would make according to scripture.

While all our actions are cause and effect, God is
never the cause of our committing sin; the cause of
our committing sin is always our choosing by our own
free will to obey our own lust (James 1:13-15). Our
lust doesn't come from any outside influence (cf.
Mark 7:15) but solely from within our own hearts
(Mark 7:21-23, Jeremiah 17:9).

We must beware of willfully continuing in sin without
repentance, for if we do so we will lose our
salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 13:3). When we
commit a sin, we must choose to repent from it and
confess it if we want to be forgiven for it
(1 John 1:9, Luke 11:4).

Absolute truth posted in message #28:

This is what "predestination" is. God uses His
forknowledge as a tool to put exactly what is needed
into the life of those He has prechosen according to
His purpose to CAUSE them to walk the walk He has
PREORDAINED them to walk in.

While God has indeed given us believers everything
that we need to walk righteously before Him (2 Peter
1:3-4), we can't just sit back as if we were in some
luge ride and do nothing; we have to, by our own
free will, choose to give all diligence, and add to
our faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and to
knowledge temperance, and to temperance patience,
and to patience godliness, and to godliness brotherly
kindness, and to brotherly kindness agape love
(2 Peter 1:5-7). We have to choose, by our own free
will, to give diligence to make our calling and
election sure, for if we do these things, we will
not fall (2 Peter 1:10-11), we will not lose our
salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Absolute truth posted in message #28:

Acts2:27--"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in
hell [Gk: hades]"
Psalm16:10:"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell
[Heb: sheol]"
No matter how fanciful one's ideas may be regarding
the use of the word hades in the New Testament, it
does not take on the meaning of consciousness,
judging, torture, chastisement, annihilation, or
eternity. It is the UNSEEN, IMPERCEPTIBLE,
UNCONSCIOUS STATE OF THE DEAD"For the living know
that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing"
(Ecc.9:5).

Ecclesiastes 9:5 is referring only to the dead body
in the grave, not to the conscious souls of the
unsaved who are suffering fiery torment in Hades
(Luke 16:23-34).

And Hades is only the temporary abode of the souls
of the unsaved; they will all be resurrected out
of Hades and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation
20:13-15) where they will suffer conscious and eternal
torment with the devil and his angels (Matthew
25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, 14:10-11, 21:8, Mark
9:45b-46).

 

[Bible2]

MamaZ posted in message #29:

If one is to live on earth during the great
tribulation they will indeed suffer the wrath of God.
For even the moon will not give its light.. In Isaiah
this is speaking to the Isrealites not to the church
of Christ. For Isreal will be chastized during this
time so that the remenant will be saved.

Many of us who have obtained salvation will still be
on the earth during the great tribulation (Revelation
7:9,14), but we will in no way suffer the wrath of
God, for no one who has obtained salvation can suffer
the wrath of God (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

The moon will not give its light after the
tribulation, when Jesus will come to gather together
(rapture) the Church (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27,
cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Isaiah 13:10 is referring to the second coming of
Jesus, "his going forth", after the tribulation. In
Isaiah 13:9 the day of the Lord is the second coming
(cf. 1 Corinthians 1:7-8) and the wrath is the wrath
of the second coming (Revelation 19:15-21).

Isaiah 13:10 is speaking to the Church, just as
Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 (like John 14:3)
are speaking to the Church.

A remnant of unbelieving elect Israel which survives
the tribulation will all be saved at the second
coming (Romans 11:26-28), when they see the returned
Jesus (Zechariah 12:10-14). When they get saved
they'll become part of the Church, just as all Jews
who have ever been saved in the past became part of
the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13) and just as all Jews
who will be saved in the future, including during the
tribulation, will become part of the Church, for no
one can be saved apart from the one faith in Jesus
(John 14:6, 3:36, Acts 4:12) and anyone who has the
one faith in Jesus is part of the one body of Christ
(Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the Church
(Colossians 1:18).

This doesn't mean that saved Jews are no longer
Israel or no longer Jews, for saved Jews remain
Israelites (Romans 11:1), remain Jews (Acts 22:3),
even though they are in the Church. And not only
saved Jews, but saved Gentiles as well, are
considered by God to be Israel, to be Jews (Romans
2:28-29, Philippians 3:3); saved Gentiles have been
grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17), made
fellowcitizens in Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19),
fellowheirs (Ephesians 3:6) with all saved Jews of
all of the promises made to Israel, for all of the
promises made to Israel were made to Christ
(Galatians 3:16), so that anyone in Christ, no matter
whether he's a Jew or a Gentile, is an heir of the
promise made to Israel (Galatians 3:29), including
the New Covenant (New Testament) promise of
forgiveness of sins through Christ (Jeremiah
31:31,34b, Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25;
2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15).

So the Bride of Christ, the Church, is Israel
(Revelation 21:9b,12), while those Jews who will
never be saved aren't Israel (Romans 9:6, John
8:37-47), aren't Jews (Revelation 3:9).

 

[Bible2]

JimfromOhio posted in message #30:

What is taught in the Bible, is that we are chosen
for salvation and nowhere in the Scripture does it
say that God chooses people to be damned.

Because God doesn't choose to save everyone (Matthew
22:14), He does choose some people to be damned
(Jude 1:4). His choice of whom to save and whom to
damn isn't based on their works insofar as He chooses
who will be a vessel of His mercy and who will be a
vessel of His wrath before they've done anything at
all (Romans 9:11-23).

 

[MamaZ]

Many of us who have obtained salvation will still be
on the earth during the great tribulation (Revelation
7:9,14), but we will in no way suffer the wrath of
God, for no one who has obtained salvation can suffer
the wrath of God (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

The moon will not give its light after the
tribulation, when Jesus will come to gather together
(rapture) the Church (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27,
cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Isaiah 13:10 is referring to the second coming of
Jesus, "his going forth", after the tribulation. In
Isaiah 13:9 the day of the Lord is the second coming
(cf. 1 Corinthians 1:7-8) and the wrath is the wrath
of the second coming (Revelation 19:15-21).

Isaiah 13:10 is speaking to the Church, just as
Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 (like John 14:3)
are speaking to the Church.

A remnant of unbelieving elect Israel which survives
the tribulation will all be saved at the second
coming (Romans 11:26-28), when they see the returned
Jesus (Zechariah 12:10-14). When they get saved
they'll become part of the Church, just as all Jews
who have ever been saved in the past became part of
the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13) and just as all Jews
who will be saved in the future, including during the
tribulation, will become part of the Church, for no
one can be saved apart from the one faith in Jesus
(John 14:6, 3:36, Acts 4:12) and anyone who has the
one faith in Jesus is part of the one body of Christ
(Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the Church
(Colossians 1:18).

This doesn't mean that saved Jews are no longer
Israel or no longer Jews, for saved Jews remain
Israelites (Romans 11:1), remain Jews (Acts 22:3),
even though they are in the Church. And not only
saved Jews, but saved Gentiles as well, are
considered by God to be Israel, to be Jews (Romans
2:28-29, Philippians 3:3); saved Gentiles have been
grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17), made
fellowcitizens in Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19),
fellowheirs (Ephesians 3:6) with all saved Jews of
all of the promises made to Israel, for all of the
promises made to Israel were made to Christ
(Galatians 3:16), so that anyone in Christ, no matter
whether he's a Jew or a Gentile, is an heir of the
promise made to Israel (Galatians 3:29), including
the New Covenant (New Testament) promise of
forgiveness of sins through Christ (Jeremiah
31:31,34b, Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25;
2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15).

So the Bride of Christ, the Church, is Israel
(Revelation 21:9b,12), while those Jews who will
never be saved aren't Israel (Romans 9:6, John
8:37-47), aren't Jews (Revelation 3:9).

No the bride of Christ is not Isreal.. This is where you are getting a little confused. Isreal is of the bond woman. We are of the free woman.

Gal 4:25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

We are grafted into the true vine.. Christ. So now we are little annointed ones called Christians. The Church.

 

[Absolute truth]

The whole problem with truly understanding Predestination, preordination, and preelection, is that this idol of the heart called "free" will distorts the truth. Why? Becasue freewill claims a sovereignty over Gods wills, purpose, and desire. Ultimately it pronounce soveriegnty over the ALmighty.

It claims to have the "power" to thwart the very will and purpose of God not matter what Gods pleasure is.

It places God into subjection to man instead of being in subjection to God.

So in other words, God must take a backseat and a bow to our supposed unscriptural idol of the heart freewill.

No will is free from the power of God.

No man is free to sin or not. We are all sinning machines. It is our nature. "can a leopard change its spots?". We sin and sin without fail because we are not free NOT to sin. Man is not free from anything. God states "we are either SLAVES to the flesh, or we are SLAVES to God". This is based on God preselction of who the vessils of honor and dishonor are.

We also do nto freely harden our own hearts to God. Our hearts are already hardened from brith. We are only set free of this from God. We do not freely chose to be unhardened.

We are MASTERED by God or Satan (through our flesh). Where is the freedom of any sort in that?

If you can smash this golden calf of freewill worshipping then and only then there is a possibility for you to see the truth that all men are not free and to claim a power of such that our Father alone possesses then you are committing blasphemy and heresy.

Not one person in all of scripture had any such power in all of scripture. All choices and decisions are caused and are not free. Since "all things are of Him and through Him and to Him" than no one is free to choose otherwise.

All things are of Him (from God, our very life, our wills, ours faith, etc, etc).

All things are through Him (without Him we recieve nothing)

All things are to Him (back to where they came from, restored, made whole, bought, paid for, returned to God, perfect)

ALL THINGS according to His will and purpose, not ours.

We have a will but it is in no way whatsoever free from choosing a path away from what God has predestinated us to walk in.

If we walk in sin and a slave to the Devil (our flesh, sin, selfishness) it is because it is our nature to walk in this and we are not free to choose God if God does not first choose us.

If we walk with God and bow to Him it is because He has given us His spirit to walk after the things of the spirit and not the flesh. We are being renewed in this. Without this mercy we are slaves to the flesh.

There is no such thing as freewill.

Lose this idol and your eyes may begin to open and you may be able to see the beast who sits in the temple of God (our body) declaring itself a god and showing itself that it is a god. Nothing matches this description better then the freewill theory. You will only see this by the grace amd mercy of God So get on your knees and repent and may God grace you with mercy to see.

God Bless, Dave

 

[Absolute truth]

In addition to my above post.

Try and have the freewill to not have that beast rise up in you when you think that it may be at risk of being unscriptural heresy.

Everytime I discuss this freewill nonsense it is returned to me with absolute anger. People are so protective of their freewill that they instantly have a fire that rises up in them in defence no matter how much scripture is given to the contrary.

They would rather believe in a false illusion than listen to the very scriptures that prove that man does not posses such a power.

Tell them they do not have freewill and out come the guns. Really now, take a deep look inside yourself and ask yourself "where is this anger coming from?", "why do I fight so hard to defend it with no real scriptural backing?".

The biggest question you should ask is "do I truly have a power that is more powerful than the very will of God?"

Is your power of will stronger than the power of Gods will? Gods will is sovereign which means He alone possesses it and He is in subjection to no man or his will no matter how free he believes it is.

Whenever questioned on Gods will Orthodoxy turns Gods will into a mere desire or wish as in the case of scripture where we read 1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; :4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

To defend their freewill they downplay the very will of God by stating that God merely desires all to be save but infact CANNOT save them because they will freewill their way right out of it.

Talk about blasphemy!!!

Is that "GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE TO GOD", that any be lost? Silly, silly humans.

Heres another declaration denied by freewill believers:

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The same amount of humans who die in Adam (absolutely all mankind who have ever lived and will live) will be made alive in Christ. Not one hair less.

I can hear the choir singing already "but that it impossible since most of mankind feely chooses to not be saved".

Even the mistranslation of the words "eternal", "everlasting", and "forever and ever" must be done away with since these are not the correct definitions. This is another error that has defined the theology of all who take the translations of bibles as inerrant.

Lets all wake up and sibject all we are to God and stop trying to place God in subjection to you.

God Bless, Dave

 

[Bible2]

MamaZ posted in message #34:

No the bride of Christ is not Isreal.. This is where
you are getting a little confused. Isreal is of the
bond woman. We are of the free woman.

Gal 4:25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and
corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in
slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our
mother.

We are grafted into the true vine.. Christ. So now we
are little annointed ones called Christians. The
Church.

The Bride of Christ is Israel (Revelation 21:9-12).
All Christians, no matter whether they're Jews or
Gentiles, have been joined to the Body of Christ
(1 Corinthians 12:13), which is His Bride (Ephesians
5:30-32).

Jews in the Bride of Christ remain Israel (Romans
11:1), remain Jews (Acts 22:3), and Gentiles in the
Bride of Christ have been grafted into the tree of
Israel (Romans 11:17), made fellowcitizens in Israel
(Ephesians 2:12,19), made the very seed of Abraham
(Galatians 3:29), and so made fellowheirs to all of
the promises made to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Galatians
3:16,29), including the New Covenant's (New
Testament's) promise of forgiveness of sins (Jeremiah
31:31,34b) through the blood of Jesus Christ (Matthew
26:28).

Regarding Galatians 4:25, that's referring to those
unbelieving Jews who think that they're still under
the Old Covenant Mosaic law. Believers are not to
desire to go back under that law (Galatians 4:21-26).
It has been abolished as far as God is concerned, even
for the Jews (Hebrews 7:18-19), and been replaced with
the New Covenant/Testament (Jeremiah 31:31, Hebrews
9:15; 2 Corinthians 3:6; 1 Corinthians 11:25) law of
Christ (Galatians 6:2), which far exceeds the Old
Testament law of Moses (Matthew 5:27-48).

 

[Bible2]

Absolute truth posted in message #35:

The whole problem with truly understanding
Predestination, preordination, and preelection, is
that this idol of the heart called "free" will
distorts the truth. Why? Becasue freewill claims a
sovereignty over Gods wills, purpose, and desire.
Ultimately it pronounce soveriegnty over the
ALmighty.

It claims to have the "power" to thwart the very will
and purpose of God not matter what Gods pleasure is.

It places God into subjection to man instead of being
in subjection to God.

So in other words, God must take a backseat and a bow
to our supposed unscriptural idol of the heart
freewill.

No will is free from the power of God.

Free will isn't an idol of the heart, but the amazing
gift of God that He has given to humans by which they
can choose whether to serve Him or not (Joshua 24:15).

Free will in no way thwarts the purpose and pleasure
of God but is part of His purpose and pleasure. He had
no desire to make humans mere marionettes which had
no will of their own, but made them instead into His
dear children.

But when humans choose to sin instead of to serve
God, when they choose not to repent, then it becomes
His pleasure to torture them forever in fire and
brimstone with the devil (Revelation 14:10-11,
20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46). So free-will will never
place God into subjection to man. God will always have
the last word; His power will always win in the end.

Absolute truth posted in message #35:

No man is free to sin or not. We are all sinning
machines. It is our nature. "can a leopard change its
spots?". We sin and sin without fail because we are
not free NOT to sin. Man is not free from anything.
God states "we are either SLAVES to the flesh, or we
are SLAVES to God". This is based on God preselction
of who the vessils of honor and dishonor are.

We also do nto freely harden our own hearts to God.
Our hearts are already hardened from brith. We are
only set free of this from God. We do not freely chose
to be unhardened.

We are MASTERED by God or Satan (through our flesh).
Where is the freedom of any sort in that?

Believers, through Jesus Christ, have been made free
to sin or not (John 8:34-36). They can choose to abide
in Him and so not continue in sin (1 John 3:5-10) or
they can choose to willfully continue in sin and so
lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Regarding God's preselection of who the vessels of
honor and dishonor are, that refers to those whom
God preselected to offer mercy to and those whom God
preselected not to offer mercy to, but only His wrath
(Romans 9:11-24). But even those whom God preselected
to offer mercy to can still choose to trample on that
mercy, and so lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29).
They can still choose to harden their own hearts
against God (Hebrews 3:15).

Absolute truth posted in message #35:

If you can smash this golden calf of freewill
worshipping then and only then there is a possibility
for you to see the truth that all men are not free
and to claim a power of such that our Father alone
possesses then you are committing blasphemy and
heresy.

Not one person in all of scripture had any such power
in all of scripture. All choices and decisions are
caused and are not free. Since "all things are of Him
and through Him and to Him" than no one is free to
choose otherwise.

All things are of Him (from God, our very life, our
wills, ours faith, etc, etc).

All things are through Him (without Him we recieve
nothing)

All things are to Him (back to where they came from,
restored, made whole, bought, paid for, returned to
God, perfect)

ALL THINGS according to His will and purpose, not
ours.

We have a will but it is in no way whatsoever free
from choosing a path away from what God has
predestinated us to walk in.

If we walk in sin and a slave to the Devil (our
flesh, sin, selfishness) it is because it is our
nature to walk in this and we are not free to choose
God if God does not first choose us.

If we walk with God and bow to Him it is because He
has given us His spirit to walk after the things of
the spirit and not the flesh. We are being renewed
in this. Without this mercy we are slaves to the
flesh.

All choices and decisions are not caused by God
insofar as He never makes us choose to commit sin;
we choose to commit sin by our own free will, by the
lust of our own hearts (James 1:13-15). Nothing
from without our own hearts can ever make us choose
to commit sin (Mark 7:15,20-23). God will always
provide believers with a way of escape so that they
won't be tempted beyond their ability to choose not
to commit sin (1 Corinthians 10:13).

Jesus became a man just like us (Hebrews 2:17), and
He was tempted in all points just as we are (Hebrews
4:15), and yet He never chose to commit sin. If we
ask Him to come and live in our hearts (Ephesians
3:17), He will transform them into new hearts (Ezekiel
36:26); He will transform us into wholly new creatures
(2 Corinthians 5:17) so that we, by His own power, His
own Spirit, can freely choose to not continue in sin
(Romans 8:13, Colossians 3:5-10).

God's predestination includes our free will. That one
sequence of events which He chose to create was that
one sequence of free-willed events (out of all the
infinite possible sequences of free-willed events)
in which He could best reveal His wrath, power,
glory, mercy, wisdom, and pleasure (Romans 9:22-23,
Ephesians 3:10, Revelation 4:11).

Absolute truth posted in message #35:

There is no such thing as freewill.

Lose this idol and your eyes may begin to open and you
may be able to see the beast who sits in the temple
of God (our body) declaring itself a god and showing
itself that it is a god. Nothing matches this
description better then the freewill theory. You will
only see this by the grace amd mercy of God So get on
your knees and repent and may God grace you with
mercy to see.

God Bless, Dave

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (like Revelation 13:5-8) is
referring to that individual man (2 Thessalonians
2:3, Revelation 13:18) who will be the Antichrist,
who will literally sit in a rebuilt Jewish temple-
building in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God
(Daniel 11:31,36).

It's curious that someone who denies free will would
encourage people to "get on your knees and repent".
If we have no free will, then it would be God who
would pull on our marionette strings so that we would
fall to our knees and repent whether we wanted to or
not. We would have no say in the matter whatsoever,
so that it would be utterly pointless to tell us to
"get on your knees and repent". And this would make
our repentance completely meaningless, without any
worth at all, for we would not have chosen to do it.

And without free will how could God ever righteously
judge people for their unrepentant sins? If they
never chose to commit sin, if God made them commit
all of their sins against their will, then how could
God ever righteously hold them responsible for any of
their sins?

 

[Bible2]

Absolute truth posted in message #36:

In addition to my above post.

Try and have the freewill to not have that beast rise
up in you when you think that it may be at risk of
being unscriptural heresy.

Everytime I discuss this freewill nonsense it is
returned to me with absolute anger. People are so
protective of their freewill that they instantly have
a fire that rises up in them in defence no matter how
much scripture is given to the contrary.

They would rather believe in a false illusion than
listen to the very scriptures that prove that man does
not posses such a power.

Tell them they do not have freewill and out come the
guns. Really now, take a deep look inside yourself and
ask yourself "where is this anger coming from?", "why
do I fight so hard to defend it with no real
scriptural backing?".

The biggest question you should ask is "do I truly
have a power that is more powerful than the very will
of God?"

Is your power of will stronger than the power of Gods
will? Gods will is sovereign which means He alone
possesses it and He is in subjection to no man or his
will no matter how free he believes it is.

Whenever questioned on Gods will Orthodoxy turns Gods
will into a mere desire or wish as in the case of
scripture where we read 1Ti 2:3 For this is good and
acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; :4 Who will
have all men to be saved, and to come unto the
knowledge of the truth.:5 For thereis one God, and
one mediator between God and men, the man Christ
Jesus;:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be
testified in due time.

To defend their freewill they downplay the very will
of God by stating that God merely desires all to be
save but infact CANNOT save them because they will
freewill their way right out of it.

Talk about blasphemy!!!

Is that "GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE TO GOD", that any be
lost? Silly, silly humans.

Heres another declaration denied by freewill
believers:

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came
also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ
shall all be made alive.

The same amount of humans who die in Adam (absolutely
all mankind who have ever lived and will live) will
be made alive in Christ. Not one hair less.

I can hear the choir singing already "but that it
impossible since most of mankind feely chooses to
not be saved".

Even the mistranslation of the words "eternal",
"everlasting", and "forever and ever" must be done
away with since these are not the correct
definitions. This is another error that has defined
the theology of all who take the translations of
bibles as inerrant.

Lets all wake up and sibject all we are to God and
stop trying to place God in subjection to you.

God Bless, Dave

In 1 Timothy 2:4, the Greek word translated as "all"
can be translated as "all manner of" (Acts 10:12).
God desires that all manner of men be saved
(Revelation 5:9), not that all men be saved; He has
chosen to save only a relatively few people (Matthew
22:14, 7:14). Many will not be saved, but be damned
(Mark 16:16). They will not see life, but only God's
abiding, eternal wrath (John 3:36, Matthew 25:41,46).

1 Timothy 2:6 means that Jesus' sacrifice was
sufficient to atone for everyone's sins (1 John 2:2),
not that it will actually do so (Luke 13:3, Hebrews
10:26-29).

It is good and acceptable to God that some be lost,
that some be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:13-22).

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 means only that eventually
everyone will be resurrected, not that everyone will
be saved. For the damned will be resurrected not into
eternal life, but into damnation (John 5:29), into
the second death of the lake of fire and brimstone
(Revelation 21:8), the eternal hell of Gehenna (Mark
9:45-46), into which they will be cast after their
resurrection and judgment (Revelation 20:12-15) to
be tormented forever and ever with the devil
(Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41).

The punishment of the damned will be just as eternal
as the life of the saved (Matthew 25:46). The torment
of the damned in God's wrath will be just as forever
and ever (Revelation 14:10-11) as the life of God
Himself (Revelation 15:7) and the saved (Revelation
22:5).

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

I believe that God is outside of time, and I think most of those reading this do as well.

This means that all our actions are known to God, past, present and future. Our works, our faith, our seeking of his grace, etc. have already happened.

He knows us completely, but we aren't there yet. I believe that the elect are already chosen when viewed from his perspective.


The question is, based on what criteria are we chosen? The Calvinist, who believe unconditional election is true, hold that nothing we do has any impact on our salvation. I don't think this is biblical. I think the chosen are those who follow God's will.

Here are some relevant passages:

Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."


John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."


The grand finale!

Matthew 25

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The human personality is composed of a conciousness and unconciousness. The conciousness being everything we are aware of, all our personas we are aware of, whether they be good or bad. And our unconciousness, i.e. stuff we arent aware about that influences our thoughts and decisions (concious also influences decisions) : emotions, suppressed feelings, and things we've thought about but dont realise. There are also demons, angels and other beings from other planes of existence influencing our personalities, and thus, the will is not a liberated system. It is trapped within itself, and trapped and complicated by external beings. Not just God. (Humans are not liberated. Humans are not oppressed because they choose to be oppressed.)

When a person makes a concious decision in life, one could theorize, there's a possiblity that he / she unconciously didn't want to do that. Sometimes we act out of normality. Actually, we often act out of normality.

There is also the sinful persona. This is the side of the personality that desires flesh. This is the selfish side of us.

How many people decide to accept christ because they are affraid of hell, and not genuinly convicted?

The human will is not free in the true sense of being free, i.e. liberated from all undesirable forces (god, devil, the unconciousness, emotion, conflicting reason, other personas and so on).

There is an element of freedom, but there's also an element of oppression, just like we have an element of creation and destruction in us.

There is also the sinful persona of the personality to take into consideration. And notedly, the sexual persona, which is very present in the will. There are so many personas, concious and unconcious, any decision we make can't really be considered 100%, unless, somehow all the other personas are obolished (but they arent).

Humans are lukewarm beings. We are neither good nor evil, and incapable of sticking to a path. We are tossed back and forth by the waves.

Note : Human being, as in the soul or the complete structure, the complete personality... body mind heart soul spirit and all other components of us.