The Meaning of Predestination to this Non Calvinist

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Hi Bible2,

Lets look at every instance of the terms eternal death or everlasting death in the scriptures.

-----------------------------

There you have it, NONE, not one single time mentioned in the scriptures. Go ahead and check their not there.

While it may not be emphatically stated (since there is no literal word for "eternity" anyways), it is definitely implied.

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is {the book} of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one {of them} according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Sounds to me like everyone who goes in the lake of fire will be there FOREVER and EVER, literally "aion aion", having the idea of perpetuality, ages and ages, an unbroken period of time, ETERNALITY. And they don't eventually get burned up-

and they will be tormented day and night

Anyone who tries to twist this into annhialationism or universalism or something that doesn't accept eternality of hell is completely denying the context and natural reading of this text. We have here

"torment"

Basavizw trans. Basanizo

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture
3) to torture
4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5) to be harassed, distressed
a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

"day and night"

nmepa kai vux trans. "hemera kai nux"

hemera-

1) the day, used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with the night
a) in the daytime
b) metaph., "the day" is regarded as the time for abstaining from indulgence, vice, crime, because acts of the sort are perpetrated at night and in darkness
2) of the civil day, or the space of twenty four hours (thus including the night)
a) Eastern usage of this term differs from our western usage. Any part of a day is counted as a whole day, hence the expression "three days and three nights" does not mean literally three whole days, but at least one whole day plus part of two other days.
3) of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom
4) used of time in general, i.e. the days of his life.

kai-

also, even, etc.

nux-

1) night
2) metaph. the time when work ceases
a) the time of death
b) the time for deeds of sin and shame
c) the time of moral stupidity and darkness
d) the time when the weary and also the drunken give themselves up to slumber

eis aiwv aiwv trans. "eis aion aion"

eis, a proposition

1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

aion

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

So literally speaking,

Basanizo hemera kai nux eis aion aion

Tormented, harrassed and distressed during the day and the night forever and ever, for unbroken ages, eternity, ages and ages.

We have torment.

We have day and night, meaning all of the time.

We have "ages and ages". Whether you agree that this means "eternity" doesn't matter, the context necessitates it by the previous "day and night". The idea is "all of the time, all day long, always conscious torment". The context is right there. A denial of that is to read your own ideas into it.

Now that's biblical.

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

Yes, when the Bible refers to men being able to
choose what they do, as in Joshua 24:15, that means
that men have free will, for if they had no free
will then they would have no choice what they did.

Joshua was speaking to the people about forsaking their gods and following his God. To choose God over their gods, (put it that way.)

But you are discussing the "implications" of choice (in general) from your own understanding of what it is, which is why I said :

"No offense, but this is a very juvenile way of looking at things."

Philosophies of choice differ from culture to religion to personality. You may think choice is somehow disjounted from the environment. To others, choice is determined by the self and the environment. And thus, God has everything to do with everything we think and do. He doesn't necessarily have to control what we do directly, but perhaps he is an aspect of our manifestations? And in that case, I don't think responsibiity can be absolutely attributed to the self. (Again, unless you know everything?)

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

All choices are caused by free will in the sense that no outside force can ever make you make a certain
choice; it's always up to you. If it weren't, it wouldn't be called your choice.

So, if our thoughts/actions are not determined by our environment, what are they determined by?