the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

Jerryhuerta · Aug 14, 2022

Douggg said:
Jerry, just clarify that your term of "when Jesus returns" means the actual 24 hour day, on which, He descends down from heaven to earth or not?

Didn't I just state that in the “days” of the seventh angel, “there shall be time no longer?” We aren’t talking about a mere 24 hours' timing of the final plagues. The Revelation affirms Christ returns as the plagues are drawing to their end. And again, since the Revelation is Christ's mediation the Church goes through the trials depicted by the seven seals, with the exception of the seventh and last trumpet (1 Peter 4:17). That is enough to expose any futurist chart to the fire of 1 Corinthians 3:15.

Douggg · Aug 14, 2022

Jerryhuerta said:
And again, since the Revelation is Christ's mediation the Church goes through the trials depicted by the seven seals, with the exception of the seventh and last trumpet (1 Peter 4:17). That is enough to expose any futurist chart to the fire of 1 Corinthians 3:15.

So when you write "when Christ returns" you are not talking about the actual day of Christ return but a period of time leading up to it ?

In the future, you need to be clear about what you mean.

How long is the period of time during which the vials of God will be poured out ?

Jerryhuerta said:
And again, since the Revelation is Christ's mediation the Church goes through the trials depicted by the seven seals, with the exception of the seventh and last trumpet (1 Peter 4:17). That is enough to expose any futurist chart to the fire of 1 Corinthians 3:15.

Jerry, you are giving windage without any actual specific critique of the elements on my futurist chart.

And you are not presenting your historist chart of the same elements.

Jerryhuerta · Aug 14, 2022

Douggg said:
So when you write "when Christ returns" you are not talking about the actual day of Christ return but a period of time leading up to it ?

In the future, you need to be clear about what you mean.

How long is the period of time during which the vials of God will be poured out ?

Jerry, you are giving windage without any actual specific critique of the elements on my futurist chart.

And you are not presenting your historist chart of the same elements.

View attachment 319709

You're kidding, right? My specific critique of futurism, which includes your chart, is that since the Revelation is Christ's mediation the Church goes through the trials depicted by the seven seals, with the exception of the seventh and last trumpet (1 Peter 4:17).

The futurist’s presupposition that the Church and Israel are two separate mediations is not scriptural. It’s this presupposition from whence they built the unorthodox view that Christ returns to deal strictly with Daniel’s people again under the wrath of the seventieth week. This is an open theist or Arminian perception that God’s Providence is contingent on man’s will, in defiance of Romans 9:16.

That's pretty specific.

Douggg · Aug 14, 2022

Jerryhuerta said:
That's pretty specific.

no... it is not.

Present your historist chart of the same elements I show on my futurist chart. Every single element is found in the bible.

Jerryhuerta · Aug 14, 2022

Douggg said:
no... it is not.

Present your historist chart of the same elements I show on my futurist chart. Every single element is found in the bible.

View attachment 319710

You don't get it. I never gave the impression that I'm on this thread to present a historicist's chart. My entry was to specifically expose the unorthodox presuppositions of futurism and their unorthodox interpretation of the seventitheth week. You know, the title of your chart. That is what I'm doing, and you keep giving me reason to do it with your chart.

The futurist’s presupposition that the Church and Israel are two separate mediations is not scriptural. It’s this presupposition from whence they built the unorthodox view that Christ returns to deal strictly with Daniel’s people again under the wrath of the seventieth week. This is an open theist or Arminian perception that God’s Providence is contingent on man’s will, in defiance of Romans 9:16.

That's pretty specific even if it goes over your head.

Douggg · Aug 14, 2022

Jerryhuerta said:
You don't get it. I never gave the impression that I'm on this thread to present a historicist's chart.

Jerryhuerta said:
That's pretty specific even if it goes over your head.

You are not going over my head. What you are doing is going off to a different discussion.

I know that your intent is not to present a historicist's chart. But to give verbal opinions from the historist point of view.

What I am pointing out is that your historist point of view, and opinions, cannot be placed on a timeline chart - BECAUSE the historist point of view is unworkable regarding the end time prophecies in the bible.

tranquil · Aug 14, 2022

Jerryhuerta said:
What confusion and example of being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. The wrath of God is confined to the last trumpet when Christ returns to give his reward to the saints.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever… And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Revelation 11:15, 18)

Such a declaration, that the time of his wrath comes only upon the last and seventh trumpet, makes the sixth seal merely a flash forward of what is to come. No doubt with those with eyes to see and ears that hear, that the first six seals do not represent the wrath of God and that the Church must endure such trials because of its fallen condition in the time of the end, predicted by the NT (Matthew 5:13, 24:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:1–12; 1 Timothy 4:1–3; Romans 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 3:1-17).

Christ declares these fallen conditions to the era of the church of Sardis and warns us of the trial to come in the era of Philadelphia:

… repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief… (Revelation 3:3)

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Revelation 3:10)

God has not appointed the Church to his wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). The evidence presented in the seventh trumpet upholds that the trial that follows the era of Philadelphia is not his wrath and establishes that being kept from the hour of temptation is aid and not the “rapture.”

The futurist scheme cannot endure the evidence of Christ’s testimony by his mediation of the New Covenant that the Church is judged by Christ and must endure the trials illustrated by the seven seals, with the exception of the last trumpet.

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (Romans 14:10)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

It is at the last trumpet that the saints are caught up with Christ in the clouds, which is illustrated in the accounts of the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12) and supported by 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

The wrath of God is confined to the last trumpet when Christ returns to give his reward to the saints.

Such a declaration, that the time of his wrath comes only upon the last and seventh trumpet, makes the sixth seal merely a flash forward of what is to come. No doubt with those with eyes to see and ears that hear, that the first six seals do not represent the wrath of God and that the Church must endure such trials because of its fallen condition in the time of the end, predicted by the NT (Matthew 5:13, 24:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:1–12; 1 Timothy 4:1–3; Romans 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 3:1-17).

I never said that the Seals were the wrath. So I'm not sure what you are arguing against here.

And you conveniently sidestepped addressing the fact that the 6th Seal is indicating that the Day of the Lord's wrath starts at the Trumpets. It is very clear that the wrath is starting at the Trumpets, it is being held back while the faithful are being sealed and gathered in Revelation 7.

That's why there are 7 Trumpets & 7 bowls of wrath.

Lev 26:18 And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins,

2 different times of being unfaithful. Each getting 7 punishments.

God has not appointed the Church to his wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). The evidence presented in the seventh trumpet upholds that the trial that follows the era of Philadelphia is not his wrath and establishes that being kept from the hour of temptation is aid and not the “rapture.”

God doesn't appoint the church to wrath. Where did I ever say that it did?

Where did I ever say anything about a whisked away rapture? I have never believed in this.

The faithful church is on earth receiving 'woe', not 'wrath'. The 'woes' (the 5th, 6th, 7th Trumpets) are the 3 'birth pangs' that 'Israel' must endure to get to the kingdom at the 3rd woe ('woe' is the Greek 'ouai' used by Jesus in Matthew 24:19 same as in Revelation 8:13). Not complicated.

The futurist scheme cannot endure the evidence of Christ’s testimony by his mediation of the New Covenant that the Church is judged by Christ and must endure the trials illustrated by the seven seals, with the exception of the last trumpet.

'The futurist scheme cannot endure the evidence of Christ's testimony'... Huh?

I think that you are saying: 'Christians must suffer the 7 Seals'.

Yes, I agree with this.

I think that you are saying: 'Christians do not endure the 7th Trumpet'.

I would say, Christians do not endure the 7 bowls of wrath - the church does not receive wrath. Christians receive and have to endure the 3rd woe, the 3rd 'birth pain' which is having to endure the presence of the beast from the sea & earth & temptation to worship the living idol. Because there is no 'whisked away' rapture, right?

I think that you are saying: 'Trumpets 1-6 are not very important because I cannot understand them'

I would say, this happens all the time in the eschatology forum.

Jerryhuerta · Aug 14, 2022

Douggg said:
You are not going over my head. What you are doing is going off to a different discussion.

I know that your intent is not to present a historicist's chart. But to give verbal opinions from the historist point of view.

What I am pointing out is that your historist point of view, and opinions, cannot be placed on a timeline chart - BECAUSE the historist point of view is unworkable regarding the end time prophecies in the bible.

Your futurist interpretation of the seventieth week does not stand up against the scriptures, which makes your chart confusion. You have all the wrong elements in the seventieth week, considering it cannot be separated from the sixty-ninth without the unorthodox interpretation that Christ returns to mediate the Old Covenant again.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

All I have to do is expose futurism and preterism for their unorthodox interpretations to garner credit for historicism. Historicism has a proper place for all the elements of your chart because their interpretations are “more” orthodox.

frank sears · Aug 14, 2022

There is this idea that Israel and the church are two separate entities, I think the pre-trib folks came up with this idea in order to bolster their position. The church by definition is the elect of Israel, to which was added the elect of the gentiles. Since the church was, and has always been, the obedient of Israel, how can it be separate from Israel? This false teaching of Israel and the church being separate entities came about from the teaching of Paul that at some point in the future, the entire nation of Israel would turn to Christ. That simply means that at some future point the nation of Israel will all accept Christ and will become part of the body of Christ with the other Israelis and gentiles. We need to keep in mind that unbelieving Israel is just as lost as the unbelieving gentiles. God does watch out for present day Israel as it will be then or their descendants who will turn to Christ.

Douggg · Aug 14, 2022

Jerryhuerta said:
Your futurist interpretation of the seventieth week does not stand up against the scriptures, which makes your chart confusion. You have all the wrong elements in the seventieth week, considering it cannot be separated from the sixty-ninth without the unorthodox interpretation that Christ returns to mediate the Old Covenant again.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

All I have to do is expose futurism and preterism for their unorthodox interpretations to garner credit for historicism. Historicism has a proper place for all the elements of your chart because their interpretations are “more” orthodox.

The fact is, Jerry, I have charts showing the relationship on a timeline of the end times events of the bible to each other - and you don't, to support your view and opinions.

You are creating a strawman argument regarding the Jews and the new covenant. Israel, the Jews, will embrace Jesus and the new covenant of Salvation in Him - in the middle of the forthcoming 70th week. The timing is in Revelation 12:10-11.

Please put together a historist view chart showing these end times events. The problem you have, apart from probably not having the chart making skills on the computer, is that the historist view cannot be put on a chart showing the relationship of events given in the bible BECAUSE the historist view is unworkable.

All of the charts I display have one thing in common... the 70th week begins...and then 7 years later, ends by Jesus's return, His Second Coming.

Douggg · Aug 14, 2022

frank sears said:
There is this idea that Israel and the church are two separate entities, I think the pre-trib folks came up with this idea in order to bolster their position.

The church and Israel are two separate entities. Ezekiel 38 and 39, for example, cannot be talking about the church.

But the rub comes in when some pastors as saying the Jews are saved in the interim till Jesus returns, because they are under the old covenant - which is completely false.

There is only one way to be saved - and that is by the shed blood of Jesus and His resurrection on the third day, believing and trusting in Him. Hence the expression "today is the day of salvation"...believe now, do not wait until the future.

Douggg · Aug 14, 2022

Jerryhuerta said:
Historicism has a proper place for all the elements of your chart because their interpretations are “more” orthodox.

Well, prove it with a historist chart showing all the elements I show on my chart.

Super Kal · Aug 15, 2022

Dave Watchman said:
Too bad.
Too bad.
I think the destruction of Jerusalem culminated about 34 years after the 70th week was finished. But this time we can have a gap, or a delay, of just one year. What Newton called the compass of a Jubilee.
Too much of a stretch. The destruction of Jerusalem occurred after the 70th week was finished.
He is correct.
Jesus’ baptism happened after 69 weeks were finished when He said that the "time" was fulfilled and the Kingdom of God is at hand early in Mark. Jesus’ baptism was year #1 of the 70th week.
Correct.
Correct.
Remarkable.
Too bad.
Remarkable.
He's right when he says: "The 70th week would be a period at the end of the world, and he's also right when he says: "the seventy weeks as the time between the two advents of Christ. But it's confusing to explain. I don't think that he could have known there would be two sets of 70 week periods, the one we are in does in fact separate the two comings of Christ.
Technically he is correct, but I think he got lucky with the vocabulary.
He was way out of the ball park. (wrong)
Most people want to join a team, safety in numbers?
He was correct.

just so you know, i wasnt quoting these individuals as if to prove what Bill MacGregor was saying is true or not. RandyPNW asked me a question, and i was simply answering him

But even with Polycarp having spoke personally with the one who wrote down Revelation, he can't know who the Antichrist is, or where the 70th week is in our time.

I never made the claim he did... again, i was answering RandyPNW because he asked me where i got my sources concerning this matter.

there are two 490 year periods, two 69 weeks, and two 70th weeks.

the scriptures never make this claim

Both Isaac Newton, and Levi Eshkol...

when it concerns more modern commentary, i barely put any weight into it. the further you get from the time of Christ, the more abundant heresy will become.

Jerryhuerta · Aug 16, 2022

tranquil said:
I never said that the Seals were the wrath. So I'm not sure what you are arguing against here.

And you conveniently sidestepped addressing the fact that the 6th Seal is indicating that the Day of the Lord's wrath starts at the Trumpets. It is very clear that the wrath is starting at the Trumpets, it is being held back while the faithful are being sealed and gathered in Revelation 7.

That's why there are 7 Trumpets & 7 bowls of wrath.

Lev 26:18 And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins,

2 different times of being unfaithful. Each getting 7 punishments.

God doesn't appoint the church to wrath. Where did I ever say that it did?

Where did I ever say anything about a whisked away rapture? I have never believed in this.

The faithful church is on earth receiving 'woe', not 'wrath'. The 'woes' (the 5th, 6th, 7th Trumpets) are the 3 'birth pangs' that 'Israel' must endure to get to the kingdom at the 3rd woe ('woe' is the Greek 'ouai' used by Jesus in Matthew 24:19 same as in Revelation 8:13). Not complicated.

'The futurist scheme cannot endure the evidence of Christ's testimony'... Huh?

I think that you are saying: 'Christians must suffer the 7 Seals'.

Yes, I agree with this.

I think that you are saying: 'Christians do not endure the 7th Trumpet'.

I would say, Christians do not endure the 7 bowls of wrath - the church does not receive wrath. Christians receive and have to endure the 3rd woe, the 3rd 'birth pain' which is having to endure the presence of the beast from the sea & earth & temptation to worship the living idol. Because there is no 'whisked away' rapture, right?

I think that you are saying: 'Trumpets 1-6 are not very important because I cannot understand them'

I would say, this happens all the time in the eschatology forum.

And the seventh angel sounded… and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great… (Revelation 11:15, 18)

What don’t you understand about what Revelation 11:15-18 states? It affirms the wrath of God is poured out at the seventh trumpet, not the first. As I stated in my post, this “makes” the six seal a flash-forward, which is not an uncommon practice in linear narratives and in scripture. (I didn’t sidestep anything.)

Your interpretation has the Church face God’s wrath; if they’re on earth they face God’s wrath, period. Your scheme of making a distinction between woe and wrath doesn’t preclude they face the wrath if they're on earth.

You will note that Revelation 11 has the wrath at the same time that the saints are caught up to meet Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which is how they escape the wrath. Your scheme has them face the wrath.

Jerryhuerta · Aug 16, 2022

Douggg said:
The fact is, Jerry, I have charts showing the relationship on a timeline of the end times events of the bible to each other - and you don't, to support your view and opinions.

You are creating a strawman argument regarding the Jews and the new covenant. Israel, the Jews, will embrace Jesus and the new covenant of Salvation in Him - in the middle of the forthcoming 70th week. The timing is in Revelation 12:10-11.

Please put together a historist view chart showing these end times events. The problem you have, apart from probably not having the chart making skills on the computer, is that the historist view cannot be put on a chart showing the relationship of events given in the bible BECAUSE the historist view is unworkable.

All of the charts I display have one thing in common... the 70th week begins...and then 7 years later, ends by Jesus's return, His Second Coming.

View attachment 319720

View attachment 319719

View attachment 319718

Judeans and Ephraimites have been embracing their covenant for the past 2000 years. You are the one with the straw man arguments.

No, my work here is to demolish your presuppositions, which make your charts foolishness, especially the protraction of the seventy weeks.

And BTW, Revelation 20 affirms Ezekiel 38-39 comes after the 1000 years at the time of the Great White Throne Judgment. And here is what Isaiah has to add.

For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors. Isaiah 14:1-2

The context in Isaiah definitely concerns Christ’s return when Lucifer is brought down to the pit, which we also see in Revelation 20:1-3. “The land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people,” in Ezekiel 38 represents the same people that Isaiah is talking about, and that is the Church which is made up of Gentiles, strangers, and the literal offspring of Jacob, though they be mixed.

Douggg · Aug 17, 2022

Jerryhuerta said:
Judeans and Ephraimites have been embracing their covenant for the past 2000 years. You are the one with the straw man arguments.

No, my work here is to demolish your presuppositions, which make your charts foolishness, especially the protraction of the seventy weeks.

Jerry, all you are doing is essentially name calling.

Produce a chart of the timeline of events leading up to Jesus's Second Coming from the historist point of view.

Jerryhuerta · Aug 17, 2022

Douggg said:
Jerry, all you are doing is essentially name calling.

Produce a chart of the timeline of events leading up to Jesus's Second Coming from the historist point of view.

If you can't defend your presuppositions just say so.

Both futurists and preterists view the prophecies of the Messianic kingdom as contingent upon the acceptance of the shepherds of Israel, only diverging in the results. The Futurists view the shepherd’s rejection as a postponement of the kingdom, a parenthesis, and the ad hoc intervention of an unforeseen Church. The Preterists view the shepherd’s rejection as a replacement of the descendants of Jacob with the Gentiles, resulting in a hyper-figurative fulfillment of prophecy. Both schools view the prophecies of the OT as upset by the rejection of Christ by the shepherds. However, the prophets wrote notably that the shepherds would reject the stone and that Israel would endure another diaspora as a result, which affirms that God’s kingdom is not contingent upon man.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. (Psalm 118:22-23)

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (1 Peter 2:8)

Douggg · Aug 17, 2022

Jerryhuerta said:
If you can't defend your presuppositions just say so.

Both futurists and preterists view the prophecies of the Messianic kingdom as contingent upon the acceptance of the shepherds of Israel, only diverging in the results. The Futurists view the shepherd’s rejection as a postponement of the kingdom, a parenthesis, and the ad hoc intervention of an unforeseen Church. The Preterists view the shepherd’s rejection as a replacement of the descendants of Jacob with the Gentiles, resulting in a hyper-figurative fulfillment of prophecy. Both schools view the prophecies of the OT as upset by the rejection of Christ by the shepherds. However, the prophets wrote notably that the shepherds would reject the stone and that Israel would endure another diaspora as a result, which affirms that God’s kingdom is not contingent upon man.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. (Psalm 118:22-23)

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (1 Peter 2:8)

Jerry, you are just ranting.

If you think the historist view is correct, produce a chart of the timeline of events leading up to Jesus's Second Coming from the historist point of view.

Super Kal · Aug 17, 2022

Jerryhuerta said:
if they’re on earth they face God’s wrath, period.

Wrong.
The flood was God's wrath on the world, yet Noah never left the earth.
The plagues was God's wrath against the Pharaoh, yet Moses and the Jews never left the earth.
Fire from heaven was God's wrath against Sodom and Gomorrah, yet Lot never left the earth.

Noah, Moses, the Jews, and Lot were supernaturally protected and remained on the earth while God poured out His wrath on the wicked.

just because scripture says we are not appointed wrath does not automatically mean we will not be present on the earth to see it fall upon the wicked. those mentioned above were on the earth to see the wrath of God poured out onto the wicked...

and if God was willing to keep them on the earth during that time, don't think for a second that God wont do the same to us.

Jerryhuerta · Aug 17, 2022

Douggg said:
Jerry, you are just ranting.

If you think the historist view is correct, produce a chart of the timeline of events leading up to Jesus's Second Coming from the historist point of view.

Show me where charts are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness!

I do believe it is scripture that does that and not charts.

Again, the futurist's scheme on the 70 weeks is not scriptural because it maintains God did not know that the Jews were going to reject Christ. 1 Peter 2:8 and other scriptures prove otherwise.

the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

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