the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

rwb said:

If all things have not yet been made new again when Christ returns with the saints, how can they be clothed in immortal and incorruptible bodies in a world that is still mortal and corruptible?

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All things will be made new is talking about the restoration of the earth from the damaged done to it during the great tribulation.

Douggg said:

1. In Matthew 24:15, because Jesus connects the abomination of desolation with - "spoken of by the prophet Daniel". The prophet Daniel spoke of the abomination of desolation having the time elements of 1290 days and the 1335th day - in Daniel 12:11-12.

2. In Matthew 24:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

3. In Daniel 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

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You're only looking at part of Daniel's prophesy. When, according to Scripture did Michael stand up for the children of thy people?

Rev 12 when describing what begins to be fulfilled with the birth of the man child (Christ), on the earth. According to the Scripture the birth of Christ is when Michael and His angels fought against the dragon and hi angels, and the dragon with his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth. Then a loud voice from heaven says, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ". This is when Michael stood up for the children of thy (believers) people.

Revelation 12:7-10 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

It is after the war in heaven that happened when Christ was born, and Satan and his angels cast to earth that we read of the wrath of Satan as he and his followers go about persecuting the woman (Old Covenant faithful Israel) and making war against her Seed (Christians). This is the beginning of GREAT TRIBULATION that Christ warns His disciples would come upon the Church on earth as She goes unto all the nations proclaiming the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 12:13-17 (KJV) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What entity on earth has ever suffered greater martyrdom and persecution on this earth and still survives and continues to expand as the universal Church on earth? There has never been any greater tribulation, nor will there ever be then "great tribulation" the Church on earth must endure and survive so the Kingdom of heaven will be complete.

Christ says believers will understand/see how Satan and his evil army will wage war upon the Church on earth as She faithfully obeys Her task of taking the Gospel unto all the earth. Because this battle being waged is spiritual good against evil. And this evil will always be present with the Church on earth because Satan is the god of this world, whom believers must fight against as this great evil infiltrates Christian communities, and through deception, and guile will be able to bring to ruin places of worship.

From the birth of Christ, when Michael stood up for believers, this period of "great tribulation" against the Church on earth began when Satan was cast out of heaven and the greatest spiritual battle ever to come and will never come again began. Great tribulation" began then and will not end until Satan's "little season" ends with him being cast into the eternal flames of the Lake of Fire.

Until you understand what and when "great tribulation" is none of what you assume can be accurate. If wrong in this, you're wrong in all.

Douggg said:

All things will be made new is talking about the restoration of the earth from the damaged done to it during the great tribulation.

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All things being made new again is the restoration of the earth from the fall. Because in the beginning all God created in heaven and earth He proclaims, "very good". But then through deception of the serpent, and disobedience of the first man and woman sin, and death through sin entered into God's glorious creation. That is what will be made new again when Christ comes the second and final time, not to this old earth but to a newly created heaven and earth that comes down from God.

Spiritual Jew said:

I only need to name one out of the hundreds of prophecies in the Bible that aren't conditional? That's an easy task. Okay then.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This is certain to happen. The Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels and He will take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" at that time. And He will be "glorified in his saints, and...admired in all them that believe...in that day". That is not a conditional prophecy. You think otherwise? In your view it would be possible that Christ would never return since you see His return as being conditional. You can't see how ridiculous that is?

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If there is a mass revival, then the condition would be, no one left to destroy. If total apostasy, then there would be no one left on earth to call the church.

This also does not describe Revelation 19 at all. Jesus brings the saints with Him, and destroys all alive on the earth. There is no rapture, and no one being glorified. Only judgment and death.

The Second Coming is when Jesus is glorified, within the act of making the body of Christ, the church, glorified.

While the Second Coming is sure, the conditions of the prophecy still hinge on what is happening on the earth at the exact moment of the Second Coming.

Since you include so many verses as the Second Coming from the book of Revelation per recapitulation, you think you have all your basis covered and view this prophecy as unconditional.

You don't even have the correct view of life on earth in Revelation 20:7. You paint the entire earth as being wicked and no righteous whatsoever. You have already changed the condition to fit your own bias. Of course you would think this prophecy is unconditional, when you manipulate all the conditions.

rwb said:

You're only looking at part of Daniel's prophesy. When, according to Scripture did Michael stand up for the children of thy people?

Rev 12 when describing what begins to be fulfilled with the birth of the man child (Christ), on the earth. According to the Scripture the birth of Christ is when Michael and His angels fought against the dragon and hi angels, and the dragon with his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth. Then a loud voice from heaven says, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ". This is when Michael stood up for the children of thy (believers) people.

Revelation 12:7-10 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

It is after the war in heaven that happened when Christ was born, and Satan and his angels cast to earth that we read of the wrath of Satan as he and his followers go about persecuting the woman (Old Covenant faithful Israel) and making war against her Seed (Christians). This is the beginning of GREAT TRIBULATION that Christ warns His disciples would come upon the Church on earth as She goes unto all the nations proclaiming the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 12:13-17 (KJV) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What entity on earth has ever suffered greater martyrdom and persecution on this earth and still survives and continues to expand as the universal Church on earth? There has never been any greater tribulation, nor will there ever be then "great tribulation" the Church on earth must endure and survive so the Kingdom of heaven will be complete.

Christ says believers will understand/see how Satan and his evil army will wage war upon the Church on earth as She faithfully obeys Her task of taking the Gospel unto all the earth. Because this battle being waged is spiritual good against evil. And this evil will always be present with the Church on earth because Satan is the god of this world, whom believers must fight against as this great evil infiltrates Christian communities, and through deception, and guile will be able to bring to ruin places of worship.

From the birth of Christ, when Michael stood up for believers, this period of "great tribulation" against the Church on earth began when Satan was cast out of heaven and the greatest spiritual battle ever to come and will never come again began. Great tribulation" began then and will not end until Satan's "little season" ends with him being cast into the eternal flames of the Lake of Fire.

Until you understand what and when "great tribulation" is none of what you assume can be accurate. If wrong in this, you're wrong in all.

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Satan and the angels have not been cast out yet.

The angels are still in the pit until the 5th Trumpet.

How has the last 1992 years been a time, times, and half a time?

rwb said:

You're only looking at part of Daniel's prophesy. When, according to Scripture did Michael stand up for the children of thy people?

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Michael hasn't yet, but that verse is about what Michael will do.

rwb said:

It is after the war in heaven that happened when Christ was born, and Satan and his angels cast to earth that we read of the wrath of Satan as he and his followers go about persecuting the woman (Old Covenant faithful Israel) and making war against her Seed (Christians). This is the beginning of GREAT TRIBULATION that Christ warns His disciples would come upon the Church on earth as She goes unto all the nations proclaiming the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit.

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No, the great tribulation is time of the end, in Daniel 12:4, when the power of Daniel's people will be broken in Daniel 12:7, the time/times/half time.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Find the expression "time of the end" in Daniel.

Daniel 8:17 about the little horn and the transgression of desolation
Daniel 11:35 as the appointed time of the king, claiming to be greater than all gods in verses 36-45.
Daniel 12:4 about the great tribulation, and the abomination of desolation in verses 11 and 12.

Douggg said:

Michael hasn't yet, but that verse is about what Michael will do.

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How do you explain Rev 12 which indicates Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and to the earth when the man child (Christ) is born?

Douggg said:

No, the great tribulation is time of the end, in Daniel 12:4, when the power of Daniel's people will be broken in Daniel 12:7, the time/times/half time.

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Exactly! The time when Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth with great wrath and goes after the woman and her seed. Because "great tribulation" began in earnest with Satan and his angels being cast out a loud voice from heaven is heard to say: " Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time". The voice from heaven is a warning to earth of "great tribulation" that is about to come upon the whole earth, because that is where the Church as a Covenant Body exists.

I thought for a time, and still haven't absolutely decided, that the "short time" Satan is given here is the time from Christ's birth to His cross. Or perhaps from Christ's ordination to His cross. Now I'm thinking there might be a better understanding of "great tribulation" and its days being cut short. "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

IOW there will be great tribulation in this world against the Church on earth, but every "great tribulation" event will be short lived for the sake of the elect. When we look back at history of the Church on earth, we can certainly attest to the fact there has been persecution and martyrdom from the beginning. Though many trials and tribulation can be expressed as "great tribulation" none have kept the Church from achieving Her ordained task. To this present time the Church has never ceased from bringing the message of Christ unto all the earth. In fact, every "great tribulation" event imaginable has never been able to prevent the elect of God through His Church from building the Kingdom of heaven by the Gospel and power of the Holy Spirit.

Douggg said:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Find the expression "time of the end" in Daniel.

Daniel 8:17 about the little horn and the transgression of desolation
Daniel 11:35 as the appointed time of the king, claiming to be greater than all gods in verses 36-45.
Daniel 12:4 about the great tribulation, and the abomination of desolation in verses 11 and 12.

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Are you aware of the New Testament verses that indicate we are and have been living in the time of the end, or these last days, from the advent of Christ coming to earth a man? There will be a final day of these last days, but since the advent of Christ we are living in the time of the end that Daniel was told would come long after he is dead and gone. These last days according to Luke began with the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost.

Acts 2:17 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

rwb said:

How do you explain Rev 12 which indicates Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and to the earth when the man child (Christ) is born?

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4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Satan marshaling his angels of the importance to keep the messiah from being born. And once born, to keep the messiah from becoming the king of Israel.

Satan and his angels though made a critical strategic mistake in their evil. They thought that by having the messiah killed it would prevent the Kingdom of God coming to this earth ending their own kingdom.

What they did not realize because it was kept a secret from understanding that the killing of the messiah would be the very thing which would free men from the penalty of sin.

1Corinthians2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Douggg said:

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Satan marshaling his angels of the importance to keep the messiah from being born. And once born, to keep the messiah from becoming the king of Israel.

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Why are you limiting this attempt to devour Christ at His birth to ruling over an earthly king of Israel? The very next verse proves the man child (Christ) would rule ALL NATIONS.

Revelation 12:5 (KJV) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Is this not what Christ has been doing since He ascended to the Father after His resurrection and received a Kingdom of all people, nations, and languages that is everlasting and shall never be destroyed? Whosoever turns to Christ for salvation have submitted to Christ's Kingdom and dominion over the earth.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

rwb said:

IOW there will be great tribulation in this world against the Church on earth, but every "great tribulation" event will be short lived for the sake of the elect.

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Daniel speaks mostly about his people the Jews.

Matthew 24:15-31, Jesus is sending a message to the Jews, citing Judea in the process, who will end up going through the great tribulation.

Differently, from verse 32 to the end of the chapter, Jesus is sending a message to Christians on how to avoid having to go through the great tribulation. He is saying watch for him, for the rapture.

rwb said:

Why are you limiting this attempt to devour Christ at His birth to ruling over an earthly king of Israel? The very next verse proves the man child (Christ) would rule ALL NATIONS.

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Jesus was ultimately rejected by the Jews as their King of Israel.

John1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.


John 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

rwb said:

Why are you limiting this attempt to devour Christ at His birth to ruling over an earthly king of Israel? The very next verse proves the man child (Christ) would rule ALL NATIONS.

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Yes, but Satan and his angels did not realize that at the time they played a role in having Jesus crucified.

Remember reading about Satan entering Judas to betray Jesus and lead the high priest's henchmen to have Jesus arrested.

Douggg said:

Daniel speaks mostly about his people the Jews.

Matthew 24:15-31, Jesus is sending a message to the Jews, citing Judea in the process, who will end up going through the great tribulation.

Differently, from verse 32 to the end of the chapter, Jesus is sending a message to Christians on how to avoid having to go through the great tribulation. He is saying watch for him, for the rapture.

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How do you know Daniels people speaks only of Jews, and not all believers?

If Jesus is sending a message to the Jews why is He speaking these words of warning to His disciples?

Douggg said:

Yes, but Satan and his angels did not realize that at the time they played a role in having Jesus crucified.

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I don't know how you can be a student of the Bible and not understand this was known and ordained from the beginning? Why do you think Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world? Genesis proves Satan was very much aware of how the Seed (Christ) of the woman, and the seed (devil) would wage this spiritual warfare long before the actual advent of Christ on this earth.

Genesis 3:15 (KJV) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

rwb said:

How do you know Daniels people speaks only of Jews, and not all believers?

If Jesus is sending a message to the Jews why is He speaking these words of warning to His disciples?

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Parts of Matthew 24 are about what the disciples would face in their lifetime.

Regarding Daniel, he was in Babylonian captivity, and so he concentratin on the plight of his people. Take a look at Daniel 9, in his prayer he is lamenting over that his people had transgress the mount Sinai covenant. And Gabriel informed him about the 70weeks of years are determined upon Jerusalem and Daniel's people.... until everlasting righteousness is brought in.... i.e. the Kingdom of God and the messianic age, which Jews are all hoping for.

Douggg said:

Jesus was ultimately rejected by the Jews as their King of Israel.

John1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.


John 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

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How do any of these verses prohibit Christ from being King over all nations of the earth?

rwb said:

don't know how you can be a student of the Bible and not understand this was known and ordained from the beginning? Why do you think Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world? Genesis proves Satan was very much aware of how the Seed (Christ) of the woman, and the seed (devil) would wage this spiritual warfare long before the actual advent of Christ on this earth.

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We have 20/20 hindsight living 2000 years after Jesus opened the understanding of the gospel of salvation to the disciples in Luke 24:44-48.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

rwb said:

How do any of these verses prohibit Christ from being King over all nations of the earth?

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They don't, but that is not what the Jews of Jesus's day were expecting of the messiah.

The coming Antichrist will be someone that the Jews will think is the messiah, and is anointed the King of Israel - that is what actually will make the person the Antichrist.