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The Lord never intended for denominations

prodromos

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:clap: Fantastic.
But I'm not sure what you are asserting that demonstrates?
I guess I've given you too much credit.
Which 1st century Churches were NOT located in the Roman empire, so we can compare?
Catholics are the ones that bring up Clement and Corinth all the time. Perhaps you are the ones who should be demonstrating that it isn't an isolated example
And this was not simple "coorispondance" as you appear to wish it watered down to.
Strawman. I am simply pointing out that it made sense to appeal to someone they were able to contact easily.
This was an appeal to authority to solve a doctrinal dispute.
Appeal to an authority they already had a close connection to.
But, perhaps you are correct and they were dead wrong to appeal to his authority to solve their dispute the way they did.
Weird.
Perhaps you should not attribute falsehoods to the people you are debating with.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Your welcome to that speculation if you wish.

===================

But since you apparently wish to pursue it --

Foxe's Book of Maryrs

The Albigenses were Protestants who lived in the country of Albi. They were condemned in the council of Lateran by order of Pope Alexander III, but their numbers grew so rapidly that many cities were inhabited exclusively by them, and they converted several important noblemen.
The Pope wanted to rid the empire of these people that he considered heretics, and so encircled the city of Beziers. No amount of compromise or discussion could pacify the troops surrounding the city. The inhabitants were told that unless the Albigenses would give up their religion and conform to the Church of Rome, there could be no mercy. The Roman Catholics living within the walls of Beziers urged the Albigenses to comply; but the Albigenses nobly answered that they would not forsake their religion. They said that God was able if He pleased to defend them; but if He would be glorified by their holding onto their faith unto death, it would be an honor for them to die for His sake. The Catholics, finding it impossible to persuade the Albigenses to surrender to the will of Rome, sent their bishop to beg the army legate to not include them in the punishment of the Albigenses.
When he heard this, the legate flew into a passionate rage and declared that,

“if all the city did not acknowledge their fault, they would all taste of one curse, without distinction of religion, sex, or age.”​

The inhabitants refused to yield to such terms, and consequently were fiercely attacked. Every cruelty was practiced; the groans of men dying in pools of blood were heard amid the cries of mothers, who after being brutalized by the soldiers, had their children taken from them and killed before their eyes. On July 22, 1209, the beautiful city of Beziers was destroyed by fire, the cathedral of Saint Nazaire burned with its terrified inhabitants who had taken refuge inside. All that remained was a heap of ruins. In all, 60,000 men, women, and children were murdered. More and more towns where the Albigenses lived were destroyed in a similar fashion"

Albigenses | Rekindling the Reformation - Peace if Possible, Truth at All Costs
Adapted from John Foxe, The Book of Martyrs (London: Pickering & Inglis, no date): 23-28.

============================================ end quote

Great Controversy - Page 267. "Efforts to Suppress and Destroy the Bible.—The Council of Toulouse, which met about the time of the crusade against the Albigenses, ruled: “We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament.... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular.” “The Lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out.”—Concil. Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229. Canons 14 and 2. This Council sat at the time of the crusade against the Albigenses. GC 687.6
==================== end quote

Great Controversy: p 271
Century after century the blood of the saints had been shed. While the Waldenses laid down their lives upon the mountains of Piedmont “for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ,” similar witness to the truth had been borne by their brethren, the Albigenses of France. In the days of the Reformation its disciples had been put to death with horrible tortures. King and nobles, highborn women and delicate maidens, the pride and chivalry of the nation, had feasted their eyes upon the agonies of the martyrs of Jesus. The brave Huguenots, battling for those rights which the human heart holds most sacred, had poured out their blood on many a hard-fought field. The Protestants were counted as outlaws, a price was set upon their heads, and they were hunted down like wild beasts. GC 271.2

=================

No wonder the Pope issued an extremely late - "apology" to the Waldenses in 2022

In that statement Pope Francis said "“On behalf of the Catholic Church, I ask forgiveness for the un-Christian and even inhumane positions and actions taken against you historically,” he said. “In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, forgive us!”

See LATERAN IV call for "Extermination of Heretics" for more insight into what he is talking about.

===============================

Even more to the point - the Pope admits to a little something comparing past actions of the Church he heads in its past "Holy wars" to the current criminal acts against civilians in Eukraine committed by Russia.



“There was a time, even in our Churches, when people spoke of a holy war or a just war. Today we cannot speak in this manner. A Christian awareness of the importance of peace has developed.” Pope Francis (Vatican News: March 2022)​
Until I have documentary evidence of both a high level of personal literacy within these two groups and their personal access to Bibles in their own languages, I will maintain that they do not neatly fall into the rosy scenario believed by some such as yourself.
 
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Your welcome to that speculation if you wish.

===================

But since you apparently wish to pursue it --

Foxe's Book of Maryrs

The Albigenses were Protestants who lived in the country of Albi. They were condemned in the council of Lateran by order of Pope Alexander III, but their numbers grew so rapidly that many cities were inhabited exclusively by them, and they converted several important noblemen.
The Pope wanted to rid the empire of these people that he considered heretics, and so encircled the city of Beziers. No amount of compromise or discussion could pacify the troops surrounding the city. The inhabitants were told that unless the Albigenses would give up their religion and conform to the Church of Rome, there could be no mercy. The Roman Catholics living within the walls of Beziers urged the Albigenses to comply; but the Albigenses nobly answered that they would not forsake their religion. They said that God was able if He pleased to defend them; but if He would be glorified by their holding onto their faith unto death, it would be an honor for them to die for His sake. The Catholics, finding it impossible to persuade the Albigenses to surrender to the will of Rome, sent their bishop to beg the army legate to not include them in the punishment of the Albigenses.
When he heard this, the legate flew into a passionate rage and declared that,

“if all the city did not acknowledge their fault, they would all taste of one curse, without distinction of religion, sex, or age.”​

The inhabitants refused to yield to such terms, and consequently were fiercely attacked. Every cruelty was practiced; the groans of men dying in pools of blood were heard amid the cries of mothers, who after being brutalized by the soldiers, had their children taken from them and killed before their eyes. On July 22, 1209, the beautiful city of Beziers was destroyed by fire, the cathedral of Saint Nazaire burned with its terrified inhabitants who had taken refuge inside. All that remained was a heap of ruins. In all, 60,000 men, women, and children were murdered. More and more towns where the Albigenses lived were destroyed in a similar fashion"

Albigenses | Rekindling the Reformation - Peace if Possible, Truth at All Costs
Adapted from John Foxe, The Book of Martyrs (London: Pickering & Inglis, no date): 23-28.

============================================ end quote

Great Controversy - Page 267. "Efforts to Suppress and Destroy the Bible.—The Council of Toulouse, which met about the time of the crusade against the Albigenses, ruled: “We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament.... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular.” “The Lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out.”—Concil. Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229. Canons 14 and 2. This Council sat at the time of the crusade against the Albigenses. GC 687.6
==================== end quote

Great Controversy: p 271
Century after century the blood of the saints had been shed. While the Waldenses laid down their lives upon the mountains of Piedmont “for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ,” similar witness to the truth had been borne by their brethren, the Albigenses of France. In the days of the Reformation its disciples had been put to death with horrible tortures. King and nobles, highborn women and delicate maidens, the pride and chivalry of the nation, had feasted their eyes upon the agonies of the martyrs of Jesus. The brave Huguenots, battling for those rights which the human heart holds most sacred, had poured out their blood on many a hard-fought field. The Protestants were counted as outlaws, a price was set upon their heads, and they were hunted down like wild beasts. GC 271.2

=================

No wonder the Pope issued an extremely late - "apology" to the Waldenses in 2022

In that statement Pope Francis said "“On behalf of the Catholic Church, I ask forgiveness for the un-Christian and even inhumane positions and actions taken against you historically,” he said. “In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, forgive us!”

See LATERAN IV call for "Extermination of Heretics" for more insight into what he is talking about.

===============================

Even more to the point - the Pope admits to a little something comparing past actions of the Church he heads in its past "Holy wars" to the current criminal acts against civilians in Eukraine committed by Russia.



“There was a time, even in our Churches, when people spoke of a holy war or a just war. Today we cannot speak in this manner. A Christian awareness of the importance of peace has developed.” Pope Francis (Vatican News: March 2022)​

You do realize that heresy is a sin, right? It is rebellion against God’s Church and places a soul outside the grace of God. It is a state of disobedience and not the mark of a Christian.
Heretics are very cunning in their arguments and lead many souls astray to their ruin.
Jesus said of them that it would be better that they would never have been born, it would be better to have a mill stone hung around their neck and thrown in the sea. Our Lord does not like disobedient deceivers. A Christian is marked by humility. If we do not know something, we admit it and we bow to the saints that came before us. We do not think that we, born thousands of years after the death of Our Lord are going to be a new messiah that will reform the Church founded on the rock of Peter.
The Lateran council condemned heretics? God Himself condemns heretics. Each of us should ask ourselves Who am I to lift my hand against God’s anointed and judge the faith? Search yourself to see whose authority you are using. Is it of God or of men?
It is only by the mercy of God that you take your next breath. He is merciful to you now, but the Word says, My Spirt shall not always strive with man. Unless you humble yourself and repent, the day of mercy will end, and then there is only the judgement. That should strike fear into every soul. If it doesn’t then you may want to rethink your position. Punishment is eternal, there is no annihilation. You risk eternal separation from God.
Don’t make your choice lightly, but choose thoughtfully. I choose to follow Christ and His Church. He founded one. All others are from the imaginations of men
 
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bbbbbbb

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You do realize that heresy is a sin, right? It is rebellion against God’s Church and places a soul outside the grace of God. It is a state of disobedience and not the mark of a Christian.
Heretics are very cunning in their arguments and lead many souls astray to their ruin.
Jesus said of them that it would be better that they would never have been born, it would be better to have a mill stone hung around their neck and thrown in the sea. Our Lord does not like disobedient deceivers. A Christian is marked by humility. If we do not know something, we admit it and we bow to the saints that came before us. We do not think that we, born thousands of years after the death of Our Lord are going to be a new messiah that will reform the Church founded on the rock of Peter.
The Lateran council condemned heretics? God Himself condemns heretics. Each of us should ask ourselves Who am I to lift my hand against God’s anointed and judge the faith? Search yourself to see whose authority you are using. Is it of God or of men?
It is only by the mercy of God that you take your next breath. He is merciful to you now, but the Word says, My Spirt shall not always strive with man. Unless you humble yourself and repent, the day of mercy will end, and then there is only the judgement. That should strike fear into every soul. If it doesn’t then you may want to rethink your position. Punishment is eternal, there is no annihilation. You risk eternal separation from God.
Don’t make your choice lightly, but choose thoughtfully. I choose to follow Christ and His Church. He founded one. All others are from the imaginations of men
The problem is defining "the Church". According to the RCC, they and they alone are "the Church". According to the EOC, they are "the Church". Both branches of Christianity have compelling arguments for their positions. According to what you have posted, all but members of your branch are heretics headed for hell. That includes the EOC as well as Protestant churches who have been currently defined by the RCC as being "separated brethren" in "ecclesial communities" but are not "the Church". How these heretics (aka "separated brethren") have a hope of salvation (which the present RCC holds out, based on their valid baptisms) is quite a conundrum, at least to myself.
 
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BobRyan

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You do realize that heresy is a sin, right? It is rebellion against God’s Church and places a soul outside the grace of God.
Torturing people is a sin - even in the time of inquisition.
stealing peoples property is sin - even if LATERAN IV calls for it - in its command to "Exterminate heretic"
And of course I also believe that bad doctrine is not good as you point out - but I find bad doctrine to exist in a number of places that might surprise you. That does not give me the right to misstate the views of others.

It is a state of disobedience and not the mark of a Christian.
Heretics are very cunning in their arguments and lead many souls astray to their ruin.
Teaching a doctrine contrary to Bible teaching is heresy. But does not give me the right to do physical violence, or exterminate, or make false accusations about the teaching of others. Not even Waldenses, or Albigensis or ....
Jesus said of them that it would be better that they would never have been born, it would be better to have a mill stone hung around their neck and thrown in the sea.
And yet Jesus called for the torture - of no one.
Jesus never commanded us to falsely state the views of others
Jesus never called for holy war against someone who did not believe as He taught
Christians engaging in violence against other Christians - was unheard of in the NT church - and this is the case even though factions and divisions existed among them according to scripture.
Our Lord does not like disobedient deceivers.
Our Lord loves everyone - and Paul proves it because not only was he "disobedient" as Saul - but was also a violent persecuter of the saints - yet God Loved Him and brought conviction to him . EVEN though HE thought that doing violence against he deemed to be heretics was "the right thing to do".
A Christian is marked by humility.
And is a good reason why you don't find Christian in the NT urging violence against others.
The Lateran council condemned heretics? God Himself condemns heretics.
Paul condemned heresy - but never called for the LATERAN IV system of extermination and physical violence with outright theft of property instituted as we see in LATERAN IV
 
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The problem is defining "the Church". According to the RCC, they and they alone are "the Church". According to the EOC, they are "the Church". Both branches of Christianity have compelling arguments for their positions. According to what you have posted, all but members of your branch are heretics headed for hell. That includes the EOC as well as Protestant churches who have been currently defined by the RCC as being "separated brethren" in "ecclesial communities" but are not "the Church". How these heretics (aka "separated brethren") have a hope of salvation (which the present RCC holds out, based on their valid baptisms) is quite a conundrum, at least to myself.
I do not judge a soul. God has mercy on whom He has mercy. God will judge each one on the light he has been given. Heresy is obstinate refusal to ascent to truth, not honest misunderstanding.
I do know Christ founded one Church, not multiple sects. He did not hand the Apostles a book and say here figure it out for yourselves. Go ahead and argue about what I have said for millenia. No, He founded a Church and appointed some Apostles, some prophets, some teachers, etc. There was no New Testament when the Church was founded, and many heresies rose up and deceived many. It was only those that submitted to Church authority that were spared. There were no books and verses over which to argue. All then heresies attack Christ but attempt to paint themselves with wisdom. They attack Christ’s divinity, Arianism, they attack Christ’s humanity, Albgensianism, Gnosticism, and Nestorianism. There are many others, but the truth is that Jesus is fully human and fully divine. This we call the hypostatic union.
If He is human, He has a mother, and by His own command to honor your father and mother he gave to us, He honors His mother above ALL creation. He can do no less and be true to His own command. He is also obedient to His Father, unto death on a cross. He can do no less. How can He obey and be God at the same time? That is our mystery, but He Is.
God’s Church is His spotless bride, glorifying Him in all His being, divine and human. No other God joins His own creation, leads them in the way to live and promise to help them if they give up all and follow Him. Not one.
No other Church obeys Christ in all His glory and follows Him in the virtue of humility than His one true Church. Which one is it? God gives you the free will to seek it out, but you will only find it if you seek with all of your heart. Hope you pick right, your eternity depends on it.
As for me, I was Protestant for almost 20 years, thought I believed in Jesus and was saved. Yet I could not stop sinning mortally. I thought it was ok because I thought I had saving faith in Jesus, but if I did, why could I not stop sinning and have a delight in it? It was not until I humbled myself and submitted to the full authority of the Catholic Church that the sin that so easily beset me was conquered. I was in the Church for 16 years before my act of humility, so it was not just attendance at Catholic Mass that cleansed me, but submission to full magisterial authority. Corrupt clergy is no excuse, as Jesus told his disciples about the scribes and Pharisees, they sit in Moses’ seat, so do whatever they tell you, but don’t do as they do. Unless your righteousness exceeds the scribes and Pharisees, you will in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus do not advocate the destruction of Moses’ authority until after His resurrection and the establishment of the New Covenant. The same way we cannot use corrupt clergy as an excuse to leave the Church, as they sit in Peter’s seat. The ignorant may have an excuse before God, but if I were to advocate leaving the Church and schism, I would have my lot with Judas. God calls all men everywhere to repent.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I do not judge a soul. God has mercy on whom He has mercy. God will judge each one on the light he has been given. Heresy is obstinate refusal to ascent to truth, not honest misunderstanding.
I do know Christ founded one Church, not multiple sects. He did not hand the Apostles a book and say here figure it out for yourselves. Go ahead and argue about what I have said for millenia. No, He founded a Church and appointed some Apostles, some prophets, some teachers, etc. There was no New Testament when the Church was founded, and many heresies rose up and deceived many. It was only those that submitted to Church authority that were spared. There were no books and verses over which to argue. All then heresies attack Christ but attempt to paint themselves with wisdom. They attack Christ’s divinity, Arianism, they attack Christ’s humanity, Albgensianism, Gnosticism, and Nestorianism. There are many others, but the truth is that Jesus is fully human and fully divine. This we call the hypostatic union.
If He is human, He has a mother, and by His own command to honor your father and mother he gave to us, He honors His mother above ALL creation. He can do no less and be true to His own command. He is also obedient to His Father, unto death on a cross. He can do no less. How can He obey and be God at the same time? That is our mystery, but He Is.
God’s Church is His spotless bride, glorifying Him in all His being, divine and human. No other God joins His own creation, leads them in the way to live and promise to help them if they give up all and follow Him. Not one.
No other Church obeys Christ in all His glory and follows Him in the virtue of humility than His one true Church. Which one is it? God gives you the free will to seek it out, but you will only find it if you seek with all of your heart. Hope you pick right, your eternity depends on it.
As for me, I was Protestant for almost 20 years, thought I believed in Jesus and was saved. Yet I could not stop sinning mortally. I thought it was ok because I thought I had saving faith in Jesus, but if I did, why could I not stop sinning and have a delight in it? It was not until I humbled myself and submitted to the full authority of the Catholic Church that the sin that so easily beset me was conquered. I was in the Church for 16 years before my act of humility, so it was not just attendance at Catholic Mass that cleansed me, but submission to full magisterial authority. Corrupt clergy is no excuse, as Jesus told his disciples about the scribes and Pharisees, they sit in Moses’ seat, so do whatever they tell you, but don’t do as they do. Unless your righteousness exceeds the scribes and Pharisees, you will in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus do not advocate the destruction of Moses’ authority until after His resurrection and the establishment of the New Covenant. The same way we cannot use corrupt clergy as an excuse to leave the Church, as they sit in Peter’s seat. The ignorant may have an excuse before God, but if I were to advocate leaving the Church and schism, I would have my lot with Judas. God calls all men everywhere to repent.
Well, we all have the human tendency to wish to believe that we are somehow more special than everybody else and that we are part of a group of folks who are better than all the others combined.

As I said in my previous post, it all depends how you define "the Church". I note that you did not disagree with anything I posted.
 
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BobRyan

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The Lateran council condemned heretics? God Himself condemns heretics. Each of us should ask ourselves Who am I to lift my hand against God’s anointed and judge the faith? Search yourself to see whose authority you are using. Is it of God or of men?
It is only by the mercy of God that you take your next breath. He is merciful to you now, but the Word says, My Spirt shall not always strive with man.
As all the Protesting Catholics pointed out (protestant reformers) - that is the very problem they had with flawed Catholic doctrine and tradition. It went against the Word of God.

And as noted serveral times (and skimmed past in the responses) there is zero NT support for any kind of LATERAN IV torture, property stealing, killing , extermination (pick as nice a term as you wish for the language they use there) -- in fact that is a sin.

NT writers had to deal with issues - but never with violence. No papal armies out to exterminate heretics in the NT or out to exterminate fellow papal armies. All that dark ages kind of behavior was wrong which might be one reason that even Pope Francis admitted that the "time for holy wars is past"
Unless you humble yourself and repent, the day of mercy will end, and then there is only the judgement.
amen to that. I have been trying to promote that Bible teaching for many years now.
Don’t make your choice lightly, but choose thoughtfully. I choose to follow Christ and His Church. He founded one. All others are from the imaginations of men

I find Mark 7 to instructive -- don't you? As NT Christians under the One Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 and the ONE New Covenant of Jer 31;31-34 (also quoted verbatim unchanged in Heb 8:6-12) -- I think we can all fully embrace Christ's teaching in Mark 7 as He addresses the One True Nation Church started by God at Sinai with infallible promises for its establishment and succession of Priests.

Mark 7:
7 And in vain do they worship Me,​
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’​
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”​
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”​
 
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Well, we all have the human tendency to wish to believe that we are somehow more special than everybody else and that we are part of a group of folks who are better than all the others combined.

As I said in my previous post, it all depends how you define "the Church". I note that you did not disagree with anything I posted.
It is irrelevant how I feel. I am but dust and a worm before Almighty God. What matters is truth, not what we want it to be but what is
Jesus either founded a Church or He didn’t. If He did, then we owe her our allegiance and must conform ourselves to that truth.
If we don’t, then our claim is that Christ abandoned us and we are left to our own devices which leads to chaos.
I have tried the way of chaos. It does not lead to the truth. I don’t feel better. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, but the further I go, the less I need the approval of men. Christ founded a Church, He did not write a book that has multiple sometimes contradictory translations and no agreement on its contents. Everyone can stay ever learning but not able to come to the knowledge of the truth. God gives you free will to do that. Go ahead, waste your time, I am going to Chruch.
 
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As all the Protesting Catholics pointed out (protestant reformers) - that is the very problem they had with flawed Catholic doctrine and tradition. It went against the Word of God.

And as noted serveral times (and skimmed past in the responses) there is zero NT support for any kind of LATERAN IV torture, property stealing, killing , extermination (pick as nice a term as you wish for the language they use there) -- in fact that is a sin.

NT writers had to deal with issues - but never with violence. No papal armies out to exterminate heretics in the NT or out to exterminate fellow papal armies. All that dark ages kind of behavior was wrong which might be one reason that even Pope Francis admitted that the "time for holy wars is past"

amen to that. I have been trying to promote that Bible teaching for many years now.


In find Mark 7 to instructive -- don't you? As NT Christians under the One Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 and the ONE New Covenant of Jer 31;31-34 (also quoted verbatim unchanged in Heb 8:6-12) -- I think we can all fully embrace Christ's teaching in Mark 7 as He addresses the One True Nation Church started by God at Sinai with infallible promises for its establishment and succession of Priests.

Mark 7:
7 And in vain do they worship Me,​
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’​
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”​
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”​

Acts Chapter 1 contradicts the whole premise of the founding of the SDA. Jesus said, it is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father has fixed by His own authority. Acts 1:7
SDA tradition states that a man named Miller that was not an SDA said he knew when Christ would return to cleanse the sanctuary, and he gave his calculations, the day came, nothing happened. He recalculated, that day came again and nothing happened. He then gave up prophesy.
Some girl said he was right to time, but not to place, and with no basis is the written word of God for over two millennia said that Christ returned and cleansed heaven. She proposed a premise that no one could argue, as no one on earth can see heaven at this point, but she would go into trances and say that she was there and saw everything. Some people believed her. Miller, the original preacher didn’t.
That is tradition my friend, and not scripture. SDA is tradition that has no basis in the Word of God and is contradicted by Acts 1:7, yet you cling to it. Why is that?
Yes I know it is a terrible thing to admit you were wrong and have to give all kinds of excuses as to why you are right. I know because I have done it. I have been corrected many times, and I now delight in the chastisement of the Lord. Those whom He loves, he disciplines, and that is why we are called disciples, not Apostles. That title belongs to the rulers of the Church

The one thing I do like about SDA is the emphasis on the commandments Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. In high school some one once asked one of the Brothers how he knew it was all true about the Church and God. This Brother at Central Catholic High School in 1980 said, if it’s not true then I am in the wrong profession. The class laughed and that ended it, but I thought Brother, you did not answer the question.
It was not until 2019 that I got my answer. How do I know it is true? Look at the commandments! Not the Ten Commandments, that is Old Covenant. The commandments of the New Covenant are contained in Matthew 5-7, and they are more strict than Exodus 20.
The Old covenant commanded the flesh. Do this don’t do that. The New Covenant commands the heart: it’s not just what you do but what you think. God changes our heart as He promised and unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, we will not enter heaven.
No human could have written these commandments. To study them is to know God. As the word says I have meditated on thy word night and day that I might not sin against you
 
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BobRyan

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Acts Chapter 1 contradicts the whole premise of the founding of the SDA.
The founding of the SDA denomination has nothing at all to do with the LATERAN IV command to exterminate fellow Christians simply because on differs with their doctrine. The NT text does not endorse exterminating, or torturing, or stealing property or driving Christians out of the country simply because you differ with them on a doctrine.
Jesus said, it is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father has fixed by His own authority. Acts 1:7
SDA tradition states that a man named Miller that was not an SDA said he knew when Christ would return
Indeed Miller was a Baptist evangelist and although he had the same "Day for year" understanding of prophetic timelines in Dan 7,8,9 as did almost all Protestant reformers at one time, he misunderstood the event that Daniel 8's 2300 year timeline was pointing to. It would be like saying he though the "rise in three days" statement of Christ was pointing to the second coming when in fact it was in reference to an entirely different event (as an illustrative analogy).

The Baptist evangelist William Millser was not a founder of the Seventh-day Adventist church - which organized in the 1860's. Miller died in the late 1840's and never even heard the name "Seventh-day Adventist" (since it had not been started yet) nor was he aligned with the SDA founders at the time of his death.

And of course at the founding of the SDA (Seventh-day Adventist) church in the 1860's -- there were no predictions at all about the "Day and hour of the 2nd coming". Some history regarding the founding of a number of denominations is included in that book "Great Controversy" and it also covers the founding of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

(BTW I like that topic regarding the SDA denomination - if you want to start a thread on it).

As "interesting as that is" it does not help the extermination teaching of LATERAN IV or the "inhumane treatment" of other Christian groups by the Catholic church that even Pope Francis apologized for in recent years.
The one thing I do like about SDA is the emphasis on the commandments Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.
Amen to that
Look at the commandments! Not the Ten Commandments, that is Old Covenant. The commandments of the New Covenant are contained in Matthew 5-7,
The new covenant is found in two places in the Bible
Jer 31:31-34
Heb 8:6-12

The NT version of it quotes the OT version - verbatim ... it is OT but it is the same in the NT --(interesting that you do not quote it when you reference it).

Jer 31:
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

The globally accepted rules of Bible Exegesis state that we need to first admit to what Jeremiah and his readers would know to be the moral law of God. The idea that God speaking His commandments directly to the people would be discounted by Jeremiah and his readers or that they would be thinking of "Matt 5" as they read Jer 31:31-34 is not sound - it does not hold up to even a casual review of the details.

Pope John Paul II states in Dies Domini that the TEN - all TEN - are in fact in the moral law of God applicable to all mankind and are not at all confined to "just the Jews".

Jesus says in Matt 5 that it is wrong to claim He came to delete the Law of God. He expands it , He widens its application.

And although He does not quote "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - that too is a commandment that remains for us to this very day. His emphasis on "Love your neighbor as your self" Matt 22 - does not allow for "exterminating fellow Christians" as we see commanded in LATERN IV - simply because those Christians differ with you on doctrine.

That may be partially why even Pope Francis apologized in 2022 publically for what he admits to being the "inhumane" treatment of other Christian groups such as the Waldenses.
 
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BobRyan

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She completely distorts the teaching on indulgences and tries to generate an emotional response.
Indulgences are a myth about a "spiritual bank of excess suffering" that supposedly Catholic authorities have the power to accredit to souls in purgatory so as to get them out of purgatory. They often carry a "certain number of days" of torment in purgatory being canceled. Then of course there are "plenary indulgences" where the church claims they have an unlimited number of days that are paid for or excused so as to guarantee your loved one - for whom you are earning that indulgence - for sure gets out of purgatory.

Then of course the Catholic church says "of course we can't be SURE God will honor that indulgence so it is common for Catholics to earn multiple plenary indulgences for the SAME loved one in Purgatory".


That is not prophesy
Agreed it does not take a prophet to see what the Catholic church teaches about that - and to figure out there is a problem with it. I agree fully.
She also gets the history of the Albigensians or Cathars wrong. They were not poor Bible believing Christians that were persecuted by the Catholic Church. They were a cult that taught counter to the word of God and led many souls astray. Their main teaching was that spirit is good, matter is bad. That is a dualistic teaching that is more luciferian than Christian. For her to speak well of them shows that she does not know what she is talking about .
That is not prophesy, that is a smear.
Failing to condemn, torment, "exterminate" a group of Christians is not at all "a smear". That is not even logical.

A more objective and up front approach for the Albigenses would be to find their own actual documents and let them speak for themselves rather than piling on false accusations against them.
 
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BobRyan

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SDA tradition states that a man named Miller that was not an SDA said he knew when Christ would return to cleanse the sanctuary
That is not "tradition" it is historic fact. All Christian denominations admit that this is what history shows Miller doing.
Some girl said he was right to time, but not to place, and with no basis is the written word of God for over two millennia said that Christ returned and cleansed heaven.
No one claimed that "Christ returned" at the time Miller predicted. Not SDA and not even Miller himself who admitted that in fact Christ had not returned. You need to read the book
She proposed a premise that no one could argue, as no one on earth can see heaven at this point, but she would go into trances and say that she was there and saw everything. Some people believed her.
Again not correct.

Some denominations have it as their practice to promote their doctrines by telling people to read what their own denomination's leaders said at various times. Mormons do that. A denomination that you know well does that.

But SDAs like some other denominations do not do that. What we have done from the very start is say "here is our doctrine and here is where we find it in the Bible". We believe in "Sola scriptura testing" of all doctrine and practice. As do some other denominations.

So then if a person says "Well I don't see that this scripture supports what you say it is saying" --- then that person does become a Seventh-day Adventist. There is no "wait a minute - this doctrine is correct because some non-NT writer, Church leader says it is correct and you don't know more than they do".

None of our evangelism uses the "we are right because our denomination leaders always said we are right" kind of "Solution".

That is tradition my friend, and not scripture. SDA is tradition that has no basis in the Word of God
Until you take the time to actually read our doctrinal statements and the fact that e really solely on the Word of God alone to make the case for them so if you don't agree that the scripture supports a given doctrine - that alone is sufficient reason to reject. We make no appeal at all to "we always say we are right so we must be right" and we make no appeal to "this or that historic figure outside of the NT authors agrees with us so does not matter what the Bible says to the contrary" etc etc..
and is contradicted by Acts 1:7, yet you cling to it.
Acts 1:7 says nothing against our beliefs as even you pointed out that it was not the SDA church - but rather William Miller that made the prediction about the day and time of the second coming - based on the Dan 8 timeline of 2300 years and when it ends. Even you admit that it does not point to the second coming which is a detail that the Adventist denomination also points out.
Why is that?
Yes I know it is a terrible thing to admit you were wrong
well here is where you might have to start.
 
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Valletta

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As all the Protesting Catholics pointed out (protestant reformers) - that is the very problem they had with flawed Catholic doctrine and tradition. It went against the Word of God.

And as noted serveral times (and skimmed past in the responses) there is zero NT support for any kind of LATERAN IV torture, property stealing, killing , extermination (pick as nice a term as you wish for the language they use there) -- in fact that is a sin.

NT writers had to deal with issues - but never with violence. No papal armies out to exterminate heretics in the NT or out to exterminate fellow papal armies. All that dark ages kind of behavior was wrong which might be one reason that even Pope Francis admitted that the "time for holy wars is past"

amen to that. I have been trying to promote that Bible teaching for many years now.


I find Mark 7 to instructive -- don't you? As NT Christians under the One Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 and the ONE New Covenant of Jer 31;31-34 (also quoted verbatim unchanged in Heb 8:6-12) -- I think we can all fully embrace Christ's teaching in Mark 7 as He addresses the One True Nation Church started by God at Sinai with infallible promises for its establishment and succession of Priests.

Did you forget about 2 Thessalonians 2:15?

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Did you know that all but one of the Apostles ended in a violent death? Now men have fought wars, many wars are depicted in the Bible. There have been billions of Catholics so there have been billions of sinners and a number of Catholic individuals involved in killing and torture and extermination over the past 2000 years. And the same goes for non-Catholics. In many cultures heretics were killed. Today other excuses may be more common. Religious wars have gone on throughout man's history. While in numbers SDA is so much smaller and thus have committed less of these actions, who is to say whether individual Catholics or SDA members have committed more grave sins? Do you think all SDA members should be judged by the acts of the worst of the bunch? Do you think it is a good thing to spend time judging others rather than ourselves? How about all of those Catholics and non-Catholics who were God-fearing and tried to live lives of virtue?
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
As all the Protesting Catholics pointed out (protestant reformers) - that is the very problem they had with flawed Catholic doctrine and tradition. It went against the Word of God.

And as noted serveral times (and skimmed past in the responses) there is zero NT support for any kind of LATERAN IV torture, property stealing, killing , extermination (pick as nice a term as you wish for the language they use there) -- in fact that is a sin.

NT writers had to deal with issues - but never with violence. No papal armies out to exterminate heretics in the NT or out to exterminate fellow papal armies. All that dark ages kind of behavior was wrong which might be one reason that even Pope Francis admitted that the "time for holy wars is past"
Did you forget about 2 Thessalonians 2:15?

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Did you know that all but one of the Apostles ended in a violent death?
That would be the Christian church being persecuted, tortured, having their property stolen, attempts to exterminate Christians.

By contrast LATERAN IV commands Christians to do that very thing to other Christians.
Now men have fought wars, many wars are depicted in the Bible
Agreed - many nations at war with each other all through history.

Not something that NT authors command them to do.
. There have been billions of Catholics so there have been billions of sinners and a number of Catholic individuals involved in killing and torture and extermination over the past 2000 years.
The LATERAN IV command to exterminate fellow Christians - was an ecumenical council command. Ecumenical councils are considered to be infallible by the Catholic church and if you can find even one condemnation by an official Catholic source (A Pope's encyclical or official statemet from Vatican) for LATERAN IV - I am happy to add that update.

And the same goes for non-Catholics. In many cultures heretics were killed.
True - and one might "hope" (dare I say "fully expect") that any and all decrees issued by religious bodies calling for the extermination of fellow Christians are repudiated by those responsible leaders of said denominations.
Today other excuses may be more common. Religious wars have gone on throughout man's history.
No doubt. But there is no reason at all to 'double down' on such dark ages behavior as if "it was a good thing" dare I say "an infallible position"
While in numbers SDA is so much smaller and thus have committed less of these actions
Ok so I am happy to say that the 22 million in the SDA denomination are not saddled with the baggage of a "exterminate fellow Christians" decree. My point is that any denomination that has such a tragic history should in this age of enlightenment be willing to recant that idea.

Certainly we have no Albigenses document today calling for the "extermination of Catholics" in any of their history.
, who is to say whether individual Catholics or SDA members have committed more grave sins?
LATERAN IV is an ecumenical council.. it is not the case of "an individual Catholic making a mistake". But I am confident that if it WERE just the problem of one rogue Catholic adherent making a huge blunder - the Catholic church as a denomination would not feel obligated to double-down in defense of it or to carefully avoid condemnation of such action at this late date.
Do you think all SDA members should be judged by the acts of the worst of the bunch?
No - but LATERAN IV has never been stated by any Catholic authority as being a case of "The worst of the Catholic church engaged in some crime against humanity - and a lamentable event in past history which we all repudiate". No such backing away from LATERAN IV has ever been part of any official document.

To your credit though - I agree with you that - that would have been the right way to deal with it over all these centuries rather than doubling down.

Take a "good look " at this thread and notice that the moment mentioned LATERAN IV the Catholic response was to highlight the problem of someone having bad doctrine -- how horrible it is to allow someone to have bad doctrine. Not one of those was of the form "Well today we know that everyone has free will and freedom of religion and no Christian should attempt to exterminate other Christians just for holding to different doctrinal POV..." not one response like that from a Catholic poster since they know that the decrees of ecumencial councils such as LATERAN IV are supposedly infallible and that there is in fact no condemnation on record at all for the church's "extermination of heretics" decree.
 
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BobRyan

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"extermination of heretics" decree.
How about all of those Catholics and non-Catholics who were God-fearing and tried to live lives of virtue?
No doubt there have always been godly saints among the Catholic people. but are they really standing behind all the decrees of their so-called infallible ecumenical councils?

Let's take a step back for a sec and recall how we got to the discussion of LATERAN IV on this thread about denominations.

The OP asks about the history of how Christian denominations came about.

I talked about how in history we went from the one true nation church started by God at Sinai to the "persecuted church" system in Acts - #77

I suggested a book called the "Great Controversy" #78 that is a relatively brief summary of Christian history from the time of Acts all the way through to the second coming -- future. I did not actually comment on anything at all negative about the Catholic church.

Then a Catholic poster - made some unproven accusations in the form of generalizations against that historic summary -- #91

When pressed for "details" that person claimed that the summary of Christian history I suggested -- failed to sufficiently villianize
certain Christian groups that the Catholic church claims to have exterminated such as "Albigensians or Cathars".

This is how we got to the topic of the program of exterminating Christian groups as the Catholic Church itself claims to have done. Which of course brings up the decrees of the ecumenical council - LATERAN IV and how unchristian it is to try and exterminate other Christians.

I also pointed out that getting authentic historic documents from Albigenses themselves so we can evaluate them based on their own claims just as I use actual Catholic documents to comment on actual Catholic history - is very difficult since not only did the Catholic church exterminate certain Christian groups - it also deleted all record of their own claims as to what they were teaching.

Interesting that Pope Francis does refer to "inhumane" practices of the past.

What we don't have is any claim that Albigenesis tried to exterminate Catholics or erase all record of what Catholics claimed as their teaching, tradition, doctrine, practice.
 
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"extermination of heretics" decree.

No doubt there have always been godly saints among the Catholic people. but are they really standing behind all the decrees of their so-called infallible ecumenical councils?

Let's take a step back for a sec and recall how we got to the discussion of LATERAN IV on this thread about denominations.

The OP asks about the history of how Christian denominations came about.

I talked about how in history we went from the one true nation church started by God at Sinai to the "persecuted church" system in Acts - #77

I suggested a book called the "Great Controversy" #78 that is a relatively brief summary of Christian history from the time of Acts all the way through to the second coming -- future. I did not actually comment on anything at all negative about the Catholic church.

Then a Catholic poster - made some unproven accusations in the form of generalizations against that historic summary -- #91

When pressed for "details" that person claimed that the summary of Christian history I suggested -- failed to sufficiently villianize
certain Christian groups that the Catholic church claims to have exterminated such as "Albigensians or Cathars".

This is how we got to the topic of the program of exterminating Christian groups as the Catholic Church itself claims to have done. Which of course brings up the decrees of the ecumenical council - LATERAN IV and how unchristian it is to try and exterminate other Christians.

I also pointed out that getting authentic historic documents from Albigenses themselves so we can evaluate them based on their own claims just as I use actual Catholic documents to comment on actual Catholic history - is very difficult since not only did the Catholic church exterminate certain Christian groups - it also deleted all record of their own claims as to what they were teaching.

Interesting that Pope Francis does refer to "inhumane" practices of the past.

What we don't have is any claim that Albigenesis tried to exterminate Catholics or erase all record of what Catholics claimed as their teaching, tradition, doctrine, practice.

You have failed to prove that the Cathars were Christian. You state that they were, but offered nothing of substance. I don’t believe that any Cathar documents have survived. If you know of one that would be helpful. What I have read of the secondary sources on the matter, they were dualists that believed that spirit was good and matter was evil. Reproductive sex was bad but contraception homosexuality and masturbation were good. Suicide and euthanasia were ok and even desired. Doesn’t sound Christian to me, but if you have another source, not an opinion, it would help

You also fail to quote the fourth Lateran council. You make statements about its contents but don’t show what it actually says. To which decrees to you refer?

You also fail to grasp the gravity of the sin of heresy. It is rebellion against God’s Church and her teaching such that a heretic places himself above God’s Church which would put him in the position of claiming to know better than God. If done in ignorance, Jesus says it can be forgiven, but if done with obstinance and refusal to accept truth, it is a sin unto death. The sin of pride, the same that caused Satan to fall from heaven, the opposite of humility, and if allowed to flourish would cause the ruin of many souls. Yes heresy is to be condemned in the strongest terms. There is no freedom of religion in heaven, but the path to hell is full of it
Show me where Lateran IV condemns Christians
 
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prodromos

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The LATERAN IV command to exterminate fellow Christians - was an ecumenical council command
Which Canon of Lateran IV makes the above command?

I know you won't have a response as there is no such command.
 
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Lateran IV called for excommunication of heretics, and confiscation of their property by the state. This is a legitimate function of the state to maintain social order and to squelch unrest and rebellion. They did not call for the extermination of fellow Christians. Biblical support for such an action comes when we read, "turned his body over to Satan that he learn not to blaspheme" Some points to consider:

1) We do not judge previous societies by today's standards. That is vanity the same way the scribes and Pharisees told Jesus that they would not have killed the prophets as previous generations have done. He called them out on their hypocrisy.

2) Heretics are not fellow Christians, but are in rebellion against the teachings of the Church. There are no heretics in Heaven. There is one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism. We need to define what is a heretic:

St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas". "The right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ's doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics. The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness--free choice--is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one's own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of "freely willed".

Pertinacity, that is, obstinate adhesion to a particular tenet is required to make heresy formal. For as long as one remains willing to submit to the Church's decision he remains a Catholic Christian at heart and his wrong beliefs are only transient errors and fleeting opinions. Considering that the human intellect can assent only to truth, real or apparent, studied pertinacity — as distinct from wanton opposition — supposes a firm subjective conviction which may be sufficient to inform the conscience and create "good faith". Such firm convictions result either from circumstances over which the heretic has no control or from intellectual delinquencies in themselves more or less voluntary and imputable. A man born and nurtured in heretical surroundings may live and die without ever having a doubt as to the truth of his creed. On the other hand a born Catholic may allow himself to drift into whirls of anti-Catholic thought from which no doctrinal authority can rescue him, and where his mind becomes incrusted with convictions, or considerations sufficiently powerful to overlay his Catholic conscience. It is not for man, but for Him who searcheth the mind and heart, to sit in judgment on the guilt which attaches to an heretical conscience.
 
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