The line of Cain survived the Flood

[Zadok7000]

It is childish to argue this way (assuming another's reasons) since not one person on earth is omniscient.

Huh? It's not man's traditional teaching that Eve ate fruit from a tree? It doesn't take a Biblical scholar to know that both the Serpent and the Tree of Knowledge are Satan.

Being of Satan has nothing to do with genealogy, Zadok. Not one person can trace his geneaology to Adam or Seth with any accuracy nor can you trace anyone's genealogy to Cain.

Christ in John 8 is addressing a specific group of people; those who falsely claim to be Jews. (saying they were never in bondage, etc) - they are the Scribes and Pharisees. He addressed this directly in Matt. 23: The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
Hmmm...the Scribes...see 1Chron. 2:55 for their true lineage:
And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

Kenites = Qeyniy = sons of Cain. They were (and are) Cain's decendants who lied about being of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob/Judah - they are literally of their father the Devil becauase Satan is Cain's father.
Rev. 2:9 and 3:9 - the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan

There is no reputable genealogy from the present day to any son of Adam.

Straw man. The premise is that Cain was not Adam's son and has a family all his own.

 

[skylark1]

I've been reading this thread off and on, and noticed that again and again JOhn 8:44 has been brought up to try to support a claim that Cain's father was not Adam but Satan, and that he has descendents. I would like to post this verse in context. Jesus contrasted those who are children of Abraham, with those who are children of the devil. First, Jesus explained that yes, he knew that they were Abraham's descendents. Then he said that if they were Abraham's children, they would do the things that Abraham did. He is no longer speaking of being a physical descendent, but of who they are following. He went on to call them children of the devil. He was speaking of spiritual children of Abraham and the devil, no longer literal. He called them children of the devil because he pointed out they were slaves to sin and they denied it. They didn't sense any need for a Messiah to save them. They were not willing to accept the words of Jesus that he had come from the Father's presence. They didn't believe that he was the Son of God. They were not spiritual children of Abraham because Abraham believed God. They were spiritual children of the devil because they not only did not believe Christ, they were ready to kill him!

The Validity of Jesus' Testimony
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."

14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"

"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

21Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."

22This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"

23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

25"Who are you?" they asked.

"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26"I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.

The Children of Abraham
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father."

39"Abraham is our father," they answered.

"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

The Children of the Devil
42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."​

 

[Zadok7000]

I've been reading this thread off and on, and noticed that again and again JOhn 8:44 has been brought up to try to support a claim that Cain's father was not Adam but Satan, and that he has descendents.

Following a doctine based on one verse or chaper is foolish. It's coupled with (as above) Gen. 3, Gen. 4, 1Chron. 2, Matt. 23, 2Cor. 11, Rev. 2 and Rev. 3.

 

[skylark1]

Following a doctine based on one verse or chaper is foolish. It's coupled with (as above) Gen. 3, Gen. 4, 1Chron. 2, Matt. 23, 2Cor. 11, Rev. 2 and Rev. 3.

I realize that other verses have been posted that some believe supports this belief. However, pointing out what other verses one uses to justify it doesn't discount what I wrote in my post above about John 8. Do you have any comments about my post?

 

[John Christian V]

In answer to Skylark1's remarks about John 8:37:

"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you."

Do some research, and you'll find that Edom, descendants of Esau, Jacob's older twin brother, had been conquered, forcefully circumsized, and made part of the nation of Judah over a hundred years prior to the birth of Yahshua Christ. (See Flavius Josephus Antiquities of the Jews Book XIII, chapter 9, paragraph 1.)

There is not one verse in the Bible which states explicitly that Adam begot Cain, that Adam was Cain's father, or that Cain was Adam's son.

Genesis 4:1-2
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Here is what those verses tells us. Adam had sexual relations with Eve, Eve conceived, she bare Cain, she said she got a man from Yahweh, and she bare Abel right after. No evidence that she had sexual relations again or conceived again before baring Abel. So, from the evidence we have, it appears that Cain and Abel were twins. If we understand from Genesis chapter three that Eve had sexual relations with Adam, there is no problem with Genesis 4:1 in terms of Cain being fathered by Satan instead of Adam. It is called superfecundation, and it is possible.

I believe I read someone asking why God would preserve Cain's life if he were the son of Satan. Might as well ask why God allows Satan to exist. Evil is permitted to continue in order to test and try the good. Is that not so?


Now, as for the Lost Tribes of Israel migrating into Europe, the secular world is obviously against it and will not support it. But, in the past, secular world was also against the idea that the nation of Israel even existed. I imagine you can still find some scholars who will argue that the Bible is a complete fairy tale and fabrication. History is not a cut-and-dry subject, and there are many mysteries about the ancient past which have not been solved. Many questions exist for which there are no clear answers. Claiming one knows with a certainty that no Israelites migrated north and west out of the Middle East following the Assyrian captivity would be dishonest to say the least.

As for the idea that the only Jews still existing are the ones known by the world to be Jews, the Bible itself argues against it.

Revelation 2:8-9
2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:7-0
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Is Revelation anti-Semitic now? lol.

We know that even in Yahshua's day there were people among the Jews, claiming to be Jews, who weren't Israelites by blood. Why do we believe that has changed?

And if you do not believe the Israelites established any more nations after they went into captivity, you are denying the truth of the Bible.

Genesis 48:17-22
[17] And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
[18] And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
[19] And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
[20] And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
[21] And Israel said unto Joseph, Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
[22] Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.

 

[John Christian V]

hey mate, anythings possible i suppose

It's more than possible if one has a greater than superficial knowledge of history. No offense intended. Just stating the plain fact.

 

[skylark1]

In answer to Skylark1's remarks about John 8:37:

"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you."

<snip>

Your post really wasn't in answer to my remarks about John 8:37, as you have manged to completely ignore them. I would really rather study one passage of scripture and whether or not it supports this view, priot to moving on to other passages of scripture. No one has reponded to the greater context of John 8, and what why Jesus would say that they were Abraham's descendants. but not his children. Rather that they were children of the devil.

Here is what those verses tells us. Adam had sexual relations with Eve, Eve conceived, she bare Cain, she said she got a man from Yahweh, and she bare Abel right after. No evidence that she had sexual relations again or conceived again before baring Abel. So, from the evidence we have, it appears that Cain and Abel were twins. If we understand from Genesis chapter three that Eve had sexual relations with Adam, there is no problem with Genesis 4:1 in terms of Cain being fathered by Satan instead of Adam. It is called superfecundation, and it is possible.

That is reading a lot into scripture to assume that Cain and Able were twins. Just as it is reading a great deal into Genesis 3 to assume that Eve had sexual relations with Satan.

Revelation 3:7-0
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Is Revelation anti-Semitic now? lol.

We know that even in Yahshua's day there were people among the Jews, claiming to be Jews, who weren't Israelites by blood. Why do we believe that has changed?

And in John 8 Jesus clearly tells us that there are those who are children of Abraham by physical descent, and then there are those who are spiritual children of Abraham. I would guess that is what Revelation 3 was speaking of. John Gill described these people this way: "Jews by name and nation; they are. Jews outwardly, but not inwardly and spiritually."

 

[John Christian V]

Your post really wasn't in answer to my remarks about John 8:37, as you have manged to completely ignore them. I would really rather study one passage of scripture and whether or not it supports this view, priot to moving on to other passages of scripture. No one has reponded to the greater context of John 8, and what why Jesus would say that they were Abraham's descendants. but not his children. Rather that they were children of the devil.

Edomites are descendants of Abraham and Isaac, but not of Jacob. Esau was Jacob's elder twin brother, whom God hated. The only person in the Bible Yahweh God says he hates by name. And, according to the Jewish historian Josephus, they were among the citizens of Judea during the time of Yahshua. In fact, King Herod was at least half-Edomite. So, Yahshua was most likely speaking to them. One of the reasons Esau was hated was because he intermarried with Canaanites, and his descendants later intermarried with the Horim, a tribe related to the Rephaim. Rephaim were Nephilim, children of fallen angels and human women.

That is reading a lot into scripture to assume that Cain and Able were twins. Just as it is reading a great deal into Genesis 3 to assume that Eve had sexual relations with Satan.

Not really, if you know the Bible, and are aware of certain patterns of symbolism and figurative language used throughout. You read a lot into Genesis chapter three without realizing it. For example, are you aware that Satan's identity as "that old serpent" is not confirmed by Scripture until Revelation 12:9?

And in John 8 Jesus clearly tells us that there are those who are children of Abraham by physical descent, and then there are those who are spiritual children of Abraham. I would guess that is what Revelation 3 was speaking of. John Gill described these people this way: "Jews by name and nation; they are. Jews outwardly, but not inwardly and spiritually."

I grew up understanding it all spiritually because that's how I was taught. However, after further study, I began to question this. If there is not a physical, genetic dimension to it, why does God still care about the physical descendants of Jacob at all?

 

[John Christian V]

That is reading a lot into scripture to assume that Cain and Able were twins.

If I didn't believe that Cain and Abel were twins, I would have to assume that Adam knew Eve again, and she conceived again. How does that read less into the Scripture?

 

[skylark1]

Your post really wasn't in answer to my remarks about John 8:37, as you have manged to completely ignore them. I would really rather study one passage of scripture and whether or not it supports this view, priot to moving on to other passages of scripture. No one has reponded to the greater context of John 8, and what why Jesus would say that they were Abraham's descendants. but not his children. Rather that they were children of the devil.

Edomites are descendants of Abraham and Isaac, but not of Jacob. Esau was Jacob's elder twin brother, whom God hated. The only person in the Bible Yahweh God says he hates by name. And, according to the Jewish historian Josephus, they were among the citizens of Judea during the time of Yahshua. In fact, King Herod was at least half-Edomite. So, Yahshua was most likely speaking to them. One of the reasons Esau was hated was because he intermarried with Canaanites, and his descendants later intermarried with the Horim, a tribe related to the Rephaim. Rephaim were Nephilim, children of fallen angels and human women.

This ignores the context of John 8. Jesus said that they were children of the devil because they did not accept what God said, didn't believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be, and because they wanted to kill Jesus. This was not about them being children of Esau, but about them wanting to kill Christ. It wasn't because of their genetic heritage. It was because of the condition of their hearts. They were hardened.

I grew up understanding it all spiritually because that's how I was taught. However, after further study, I began to question this. If there is not a physical, genetic dimension to it, why does God still care about the physical descendants of Jacob at all?

Because it was through their descendants that Christ was born.

 

[skylark1]

If I didn't believe that Cain and Abel were twins, I would have to assume that Adam knew Eve again, and she conceived again. How does that read less into the Scripture?

The Bible doesn't state that men had relations with their wives prior to telling us of each and every birth. It is assumed that this is how the child came about. In the case of Cain we are told that Adam knew Eve because this was the first child born to mortal parents. I think that it is safe to assume that children continued to be brought about in the normal manner.

 

[Zadok7000]

I realize that other verses have been posted that some believe supports this belief. However, pointing out what other verses one uses to justify it doesn't discount what I wrote in my post above about John 8. Do you have any comments about my post?

I would be repeating myself. In John 8 why the Parisees say "We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man"? Abraham's seed was absolutely in bondage to the Egyptians (and even to the Assyrians and Babylonians). They were lying about who they were. Of course Jesus knew it and called them on it. Pay close attention:

I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

How can one be "Abraham's seed" and simultaneously not Abraham's children? Gal. 3:29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Even the sons of Cain (therefore sons of Satan) are freely offered salvation. God is not a respecter of persons.

 

[Zadok7000]

That is reading a lot into scripture to assume that Cain and Able were twins.

With respect, you haven't studied Genesis in depth at all if you think that.

I would guess that is what Revelation 3 was speaking of.

You would guess??? That's the crux of the issue There is no guesswork. God has laid it out for you.

 

[trialbyfire]

The problem is this horrible idea and the people who teach it are denying scripture.

If you show them the scripture that explicitly proves them wrong, they will flat out deny the scripture or tell you that you don't understand it yet, that you are blind to it, or that you don't have enough historical/biblical information to understand it.

This is very dangerous. It places a seed of doubt in a person's mind about what God said and what God meant. Satan did the same thing to Eve.

Gen 3:1Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
Gen 3:2The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
Gen 3:3but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
Gen 3:4"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.
Gen 3:5"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

It is the exact same thing that the devil did to Jesus when Jesus was tempted. The devil twisted God's Word in order to trap Jesus but Jesus knew God, trusted God's Word, exercised his faith and routed the devil.

 

[trialbyfire]

The problem is this horrible idea and the people who teach it are denying scripture.

If you show them the scripture that explicitly proves them wrong, they will flat out deny the scripture or tell you that you don't understand it yet, that you are blind to it, or that you don't have enough historical/biblical information to understand it.

This is very dangerous. It places a seed of doubt in a person's mind about what God said and what God meant. Satan did the same thing to Eve.

Gen 3:1Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
Gen 3:2The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
Gen 3:3but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
Gen 3:4"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.
Gen 3:5"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

It is the exact same thing that the devil did to Jesus when Jesus was tempted. The devil twisted God's Word in order to trap Jesus but Jesus knew God, trusted God's Word, exercised his faith and routed the devil.

here is an example:

With respect, you haven't studied Genesis in depth at all if you think that.

 

[trialbyfire]

It's more than possible if one has a greater than superficial knowledge of history. No offense intended. Just stating the plain fact.

that's another example

 

[Rescued One]

I would be repeating myself. In John 8 why the Parisees say "We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man"? Abraham's seed was absolutely in bondage to the Egyptians (and even to the Assyrians and Babylonians). They were lying about who they were. Of course Jesus knew it and called them on it. Pay close attention:

I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

How can one be "Abraham's seed" and simultaneously not Abraham's children? Gal. 3:29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Even the sons of Cain (therefore sons of Satan) are freely offered salvation. God is not a respecter of persons.

Do you believe that God created men's spirits before their bodies were made? Were some spirits put in Satan's descendants through Cain and some in Adam's descendants through Seth?

 

[Rescued One]

God cannot lie, JohnChristian. There is an error in understanding. I will choose to believe God. If you can provide evidence that "every living thing on the face of the earth was (not) wiped out", in Scripture, then you have a case.

Gen 7:23Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

John Christian V, the Bible says that there were eight souls on the ark. 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5

I have some questions:

1. What was the purpose of the flood?

2. Was it to destroy Adam's unrighteous descendants?

3. Do you believe that the descendants of Cain were intended to be on the ark?

4. Why is that?

5. Did Noah or his sons marry ungodly women who descended from Cain?

6. Or were male and female descendants of Cain brought onto the ark along with two of each animal and those two beings were not counted as two of the eight souls on the ark?

 

[Zadok7000]

Do you believe that God created men's spirits before their bodies were made? Were some spirits put in Satan's descendants through Cain and some in Adam's descendants through Seth?

Try to stay on topic please...

 

[Zadok7000]

PS - forgot to add to the list of supporting scriptures, Jer. 24. Good vs. Bad figs. True vs. False Judah.