The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[-57]

I agree, but James complicated things by hypothesizing faith without works, which I also don't believe exists except as James' theory for pointing out faith without works is a non-starter.

I believe the intent was faith produces works. Works demonstrate ones faith. In other words, if you have no works, you probably don't have any faith. Your faith is dead.

 

[-57]

God has given everyone the ability to believe.

Do you have a line of theology to support that statement? Keep in mind I'm not saying there isn't...I've just never seen it adequately defined using scripture.

 

[ToBeLoved]

there is Faith( pistis) the noun, and ( pisteuo ) the verb. Absolutely "know one" knows what Pisteuo means.

So your talking not about the word faith, but the original biblical language word?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wow. Well, this is telling!!

There is no verse in the Bible that tells one to pray any kind of prayer (all prayers are by sinners, naturally), or by asking Jesus for forgiveness or to save you. The Bible many times tells us to place our full trust in Jesus to save us.

Unless one trusts in the work of Christ alone for salvation, one is not saved.

Correct. Nothing here about praying, or asking Jesus for forgiveness.

To believe on His name is to place full trust and faith in Him to save you.

But you have made clear your views that one must achieve sinless perfection in order to be saved. So your entire theology is mixed up and unbiblical.​

What, exactly, is the gospel message to be believed?

Folks should know that this is why I am not replying to you.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nce-and-for-all.7920118/page-17#post-69210951


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[-57]

Folks should know that this is why I am not replying to you.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nce-and-for-all.7920118/page-17#post-69210951


....

FreeGrace said this... "But you have made clear your views that one must achieve sinless perfection in order to be saved. So your entire theology is mixed up and unbiblical."

I agree with FreeGrace.

I've noticed that some who claim to be christians do works in order to try and save their butts. On the other hand there are some who claim to be christians who do works because their butts have been saved.

The first mentioned above do works for selfish reasons....the latter do works to glorify God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

FreeGrace said this... "But you have made clear your views that one must achieve sinless perfection in order to be saved. So your entire theology is mixed up and unbiblical."

I agree with FreeGrace.

I've noticed that some who claim to be christians do works in order to try and save their butts. On the other hand there are some who claim to be christians who do works because their butts have been saved.

The first mentioned above do works for selfish reasons....the latter do works to glorify God.

I agree with both you and @FreeGrace

 

[brotherjerry]

Are you saying that if you are saved...you won't sin? If you find yourself sinning, you're not really saved?

My apologies, I was unclear in that.

That should have read "those that claim to have been saved, and then go out and still live in sin and are still obedient to sin, only believed in God, never saw the truth....."

Of course those that are saved will commit sins, but they are no longer bound to sin.

Hope that helps clarify my train of thought there.

 

[brotherjerry]

I really don't even know who started it. I came in a few days ago and started a convo with brian about osas.
He kind of left me hanging a little bit, but others joined in. I don't have a gift for translating my thoughts to others so they can understand me. I put that on me, always unintentionally rub people the wrong way. accept my apology, i'll step aside and find another topic to talk about.
jay

Faither...not a matter of you finding another topic...you are more than welcome to chat here. But truth be told, unless you are the Original poster (and even that is loose), or an Admin, you really have no authority to demand that people to go post something somewhere else. This is a somewhat public forum so anyone who has gone through the registration process can post. They are asked to follow the rules and stick with the original posters theme.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I am sure they can be like me and enjoy a conversation with more than themselves so the more people that are providing input to a conversation then the better the conversation. We all just always have to remember to respect our brethren.

 

[faither]

The parable of the sower is a great proof text for Calvinism. What exactly is your point?

Did the soil do anything to be saved (as your initial question asked)? It's either good soil or not.

My point is, there's a time line in the Salvation journey. And its extensive. The scriptures have to be properly arranged into a time line. Post 519 by 57 states that regeneration and the Faith that saves are both given to us at the same time during regeneration. That means nothing else happened in between, aka the timeline of scriptures. I asked about the parable of the sower because most osas understandings cannot place that scripture in their one moment in time timeline.

 

[faither]

Faither...not a matter of you finding another topic...you are more than welcome to chat here. But truth be told, unless you are the Original poster (and even that is loose), or an Admin, you really have no authority to demand that people to go post something somewhere else. This is a somewhat public forum so anyone who has gone through the registration process can post. They are asked to follow the rules and stick with the original posters theme.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I am sure they can be like me and enjoy a conversation with more than themselves so the more people that are providing input to a conversation then the better the conversation. We all just always have to remember to respect our brethren.

I understand, my apologies if I sounded disrespectful.

 

[faither]

So your talking not about the word faith, but the original biblical language word?

I'm always talking about the original Greek biblical texts. Can you make my day and tell me something about "pisteuo" the verb from of Faith that very few people know about.

 

[faither]

I know what you mean. I came to the Lord by way of the Sinner's Prayer (i.e. by asking Jesus to forgive of my sins and to save me). It doesn't seem like their can be any other way. But that is what John 1:12 says. It says,

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"
(John 1:12).​

This above passage says He gave them power to become sons of God to even those who believe on His name.
I mean, think. What about the man in some remote jungle somewhere whereby his language and culture is barbaric? He may not know how to call upon God to be saved, but He may understand the need for a Savior and believe the gospel message and thereby be saved as a result.


....

Hi Jason, I don't know any of your understandings yet. Are you still looking for better understandings? Are you willing to have yours tested? I'm not making this about your pride against my pride like most will take it. I'm talking about striking my iron against your iron. I hope that your understandings are stronger than mine so I may get to know Christ better. What do you say ? You start or I can. Since arguably the most important word in Scripture for us is the word "Faith", that should be the topic.
jay

 

[faither]

I'm ready.

When is the best time for a discussion with you. I'm disabled so almost anytime is works for me. Kids are coming over today, not a good day.
jay

 

[iron2iron]

I read Luke 17:5-7 very carefully several times - as I have many times before. I do not see the definition of faith in that passage.

Please show us where it is. Then show us why it is better than the Hebrews passage where it says, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

Thanks!

Hey Guys, in Luke 17:3-4 Jesus tells the disciples to forgive someone seven times in the same day if they ask forgiveness, that blows the disciples minds and they said, "Lord increase our faith"! Jesus then goes on to say, which of you, if you have a slave plowing or feeding cattle in the field, when he comes in from the field will tell him to sit down and eat, but rather you will tell him, clean yourself up, put on the proper clothes and serve me while I eat and drink, then when I am finished, you may eat and drink. Do you thank the slave for doing that which was commanded him, I don't think so. You to, when have done all that which was commanded you, say, "we are unworthy slaves and we have only that which was our duty to do". What Jesus is saying is, If I tell you to forgive some seven times or seven hundred times, do what I tell you to do, you are a slave. If I tell you to cast that mountain into the sea, tell it to be cast in the sea, it will happen because it is my Word backing you up. The Word of God will not come back void Isaiah 55:11. The reason people do not go around casting mountains is because God has not commanded them to do so. The disciples said Lord increase our faith, and Jesus said do what I command you to do, and don't expect a thank you, you are a slave. Now, the reason I said it was the best definition was because it was from the Lord Himself. The second best is Hebrews 11:1. The problem we have is not the Bible, the problem we have is that our definitions have changed meaning over time. When I first became a Christian, the only Bible I had was an NASV (New American Standard Version), which I loved. But, ten years into my walk I started reading the King James because I like the old English. If you have the chance to watch the BBC documentary called The King James Bible, please watch it, it is amazing. King James, being the King, made Protestant Reformists and Catholic monks work together to translate the KJV, and they didn't like it, but if the king commands it, you do it or else. It was a God thing, and I will tell you why. As I said before, the Bible is not the problem, it is our definitions have changed. I am going to use the KJV to break down Hebrews 11:1. Now faith is the substance of thing hoped for, the evidence of thins not seen. Ok, let's look at this word substance. Today's definition is, "the stuff that makes up something". We would all agree with that, but look at this word SUBSTANCE. Sub-Stance, two words, "Sub" meaning "Under" and "Stance" meaning "To Stand", literally meaning to stand under. The Greek word for substance is the word "Hupostasis", and it means "to stand under the authority of something". The KJV translated it perfect, it is our definitions that have changed. The word "Hope" is another word that has changed meaning, when we think of hope we think of something that may or may not happen, but, we would like it to happen, we "Hope" it will happen. The original meaning of the word "hope" is a guaranteed thing. Romans 10:17 so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. From where does faith come? It comes from hearing the Word of God. So then, who's guarantee is it? It is God's guarantee, and His Word will not come back void, it will do what he has commanded. Ok, now let me translate all of this. Faith is standing under the authority of the Word of God, for the things God has guaranteed He will do for those who stand under the authority of His Word. If you will obey God, He will do what He has guaranteed he will do. The reason most of us do not receive those promises of God is because we quit to soon. This is where I first started to understand faith, Peter walking on water. Peter said, "Lord if it is you, command me to come to you on the water", and Jesus said come. Peter only obeyed Christ a little, because he got scared and quit walking, that's why he started sinking, and Jesus said ye of little faith. Why, because he only obeyed a little. Faith comes from the Word of God, Jesus said come, (this was the faith given to Peter) and Peter only came a little. I Pray this helps. The rest of Heb 11:1 I will have to finish up later, have to go to work. I have written a book called "Defining Faith" subtitle..."Because God Only Knows", praying it will go to publishing soon. It is hard to publish a Christian book if your not a Scholar in theology, but that's ok because it is a God thing anyway. It has to be because I'm not that smart. God Bless brother, Pray that helps

 

[faither]

They were never saved.

Faither, you gotta be careful with the way your theology is heading. It brushes against works based...christianity is random theology... It's not dark gray...but light gray.

John 15:15 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

My understandings are "both" at the same time. But don't make me an agnostic who doesn't stand on anything. That's why so very few of us agree on anything. Gods world is paradoxical. If we can't see Him (Holy Spirit) through the paradoxical sunglasses, we will be only half correct in our understandings arguing against the other side of the correct understanding. I can elaborate more if you want?

 

[faither]

One is either saved forever after truly being saved or one is not saved forever after truly being saved.

Concerning this question - one group is right and one group is wrong. There is no logical possibility of anyone being half right concerning the question before us.

Now if you mean your argument to go to the question of whether everyone who professes Christ in some way is saved in the first place - that's a horse of an entirely different color.

I agree with your post. Imo, if we see Christ through logical sunglasses, we will never see enough to have a relationship with Him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason, I don't know any of your understandings yet. Are you still looking for better understandings? Are you willing to have yours tested? I'm not making this about your pride against my pride like most will take it. I'm talking about striking my iron against your iron. I hope that your understandings are stronger than mine so I may get to know Christ better. What do you say ? You start or I can. Since arguably the most important word in Scripture for us is the word "Faith", that should be the topic.
jay

Well, I am more than willing to do that, my friend. I also try not to be prideful in any way. For I am nothing. Christ is everything. I am a clay jar that is to be smashed for his glory. It is the Lord who deserves all the glory and praise.

Anyways, I am not sure how else to read John 1:12. There are two ways to be a son of God. To be a son of God means you have been born again and have become a son of His Kingdom (Meaning you are saved). For a son of God (spiritually speaking of men) means that one is within the family of God spiritually.

But there are only two options given to us in John 1:12 in being a son of God (or a spiritually born again saved person).

(a) Believe on the name of Christ.
(b) Receive Christ.​

The only way I can see receiving Christ is by the Sinner's Prayer unless you have another suggestion.
And the only way I can see in believing on the name of Christ is to do exactly that. I am not sure how one can read that to say something else.
For the alternative to not receiving Christ would be ..... believing on his name. So clearly there is some kind of way of being a son by not receiving Christ but merely believing on his name. For what do you think believing on the name of Christ means so as to be a son of God?


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

FreeGrace said this... "But you have made clear your views that one must achieve sinless perfection in order to be saved. So your entire theology is mixed up and unbiblical."

I agree with FreeGrace.

I've noticed that some who claim to be christians do works in order to try and save their butts. On the other hand there are some who claim to be christians who do works because their butts have been saved.

The first mentioned above do works for selfish reasons....the latter do works to glorify God.

To deny that you will ever stop sinning when 1 Corinthians 10:13 says you have a way of escape when you are tempted is to make an excuse to sin in your life when you do not really have to sin. Jesus said to two people to, "Sin no more." Jesus actually meant that. 1 Peter 4:1 says they that suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Also, there are no two groups in Matthew 7. Jesus is only talking to one group of people. This is evident in the fact that Jesus says they do not do the will of the Father or the will of God. What is God's will for us according to the BIble? Holiness or Sanctification. See 1 Thessalonians 4:3. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).


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....

 

[iron2iron]

Hi Jason, I don't know any of your understandings yet. Are you still looking for better understandings? Are you willing to have yours tested? I'm not making this about your pride against my pride like most will take it. I'm talking about striking my iron against your iron. I hope that your understandings are stronger than mine so I may get to know Christ better. What do you say ? You start or I can. Since arguably the most important word in Scripture for us is the word "Faith", that should be the topic.
jay

Hey Faithier, I just gave Marvin a complete definition of faith don't know if you saw it, the only teacher I have is the Holy Spirit, it took me 2 1/2 years to get through to my own pastor that faith was not trust. But when he did finally get it he told me that this one word has changed his life and he would have to go back over the past thirty years and rethink ever sermon he had ever written, understanding faith will change all of scripture to us. God Bless Brother, Iron Ready for revival, it's coming!

 

[-57]

My apologies, I was unclear in that.

That should have read "those that claim to have been saved, and then go out and still live in sin and are still obedient to sin, only believed in God, never saw the truth....."

Of course those that are saved will commit sins, but they are no longer bound to sin.

Hope that helps clarify my train of thought there.

Thank you for the clarification.