The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[Extraneous]

One of our aims is to always try to do what is pleasing in His sight. God has dealt with the sin leading to condemnation issue in Christ interceding on our behalf. Of course we are not perfected yet as we dwell in the body of flesh, but we will someday become fully perfected as it says in Hebrews, we have come to mount Zion, etc...the spirits of justified men made perfect. Our spirits are new creations so we are perfected spiritually to God because of what Christ did, we are dead and our life is hid with Christ in God. Our bodies though are dead because of sin, yet our spirits alive because of His righteousness not of ourselves, see this is God's gift to us who believe and trust in Christ our eternal Savior. Christ said you must be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Well if HE is our Father, then HE will see it gets done. Some of this is the good works HE has created BEFOREHAND for us to do. So before you were saved, God knew you and had everything already worked out, known from eternity are all God's works

2 Corinthians 5:9
[ The Judgment Seat of Christ ] Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Philippians 4:18
Indeed I have all and abound. I am full, having received from Epaphroditus the things sent from you, a sweet-smelling aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well pleasing to God.

Colossians 1:10
that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Colossians 3:20
Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 2:4
But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.

Titus 2:9
Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back,

Hebrews 13:21
make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 John 3:22
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

What if storing treasure on earth, for example, instead of in heaven, is not pleasing in His sight? Or what if leading others to seek worldly blessings rather than spiritual blessings is also not pleasing in his sight?

I guess that's the whole point im trying to make, and the question that i seek answers for.

 

[Extraneous]

Sorry sdowney717, my re was actually talking about something altogether different perhaps, and i thought i was responding to another thread. My focus is centered on something else right now. Forgive me if i confused you by my response.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Jesus died for all sins so that God's justice was satisfied and free to treat the human race in grace. Sins MUST be judged, period. That is why Jesus died for all sin."

God says He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

Your comment has no relevance to my comment.

However, we know exactly who God will have mercy on: Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Christs sacrifice was a propitiatory sacrifice which appeased God's anger towards the elect. Those for whom Christ died in place of will be saved. Those who were not included in the atonement, will not be saved.

Then you've just eliminated faith as a requirement for salvation. Nice job. But Paul would strongly disagree with your theology. Because his answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved was "believe…and you will be saved".

If one is saved because Christ died for them, Paul's answer missed the fact. Paul told the jailer to believe and he would be saved.

Jesus does not even pray for all of Adam's posterity but only for the elect. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; John 17:9.

So what?

Are you suggesting unbelief is not a sin?

No.

Because He does. And if He did (and He did) then all those whose sins are taken away shall be saved.

No. He took away the sins of the world, if you accept John the baptist's word. One is saved who has been FORGIVEN of his sins, through faith in Christ. Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

There aren't any verses which teach that Christ died only for the elect. But please feel free to quote any verse that you think teaches that.

 

[Foghorn]

I said this:
"Jesus died for all sins so that God's justice was satisfied and free to treat the human race in grace. Sins MUST be judged, period. That is why Jesus died for all sin."

Well, your just going to have to back that with scripture.

Your comment has no relevance to my comment.

Sure it does.

Then you've just eliminated faith as a requirement for salvation. Nice job. But Paul would strongly disagree with your theology. Because his answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved was "believe…and you will be saved".

I eliminated nothing, now added anything. Faith is a fruit of regeneration.

If one is saved because Christ died for them, Paul's answer missed the fact. Paul told the jailer to believe and he would be saved.

Absolutely!

There aren't any verses which teach that Christ died only for the elect. But please feel free to quote any verse that you think teaches that

Sure, no problem. But I will give you a chance to catch up first.

 

[Foghorn]

No.

Yes.

He took away the sins of the world, if you accept John the baptist's word.

I accept John's word but he did not mean it as you think he did.

One is saved who has been FORGIVEN of his sins, through faith in Christ.

One is regenerated and saved because of what Christ has done.

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

You still don't see it?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Jesus died for all sins so that God's justice was satisfied and free to treat the human race in grace. Sins MUST be judged, period. That is why Jesus died for all sin."

Well, your just going to have to back that with scripture.

I did. What do you have against Jn 1:29 or John 4:42?

I eliminated nothing, now added anything. Faith is a fruit of regeneration.[/QUOTE4]
Well, you're just going to have to back that with Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I accept John's word but he did not mean it as you think he did.

As I predicted (prophesied), you see the "world" in Jn 4:42 as only the elect, but without any evidence from Scripture.

One is regenerated and saved because of what Christ has done.

Well, you're just going to have to back that up with Scripture.

I can quote many verses about receiving salvation and eternal life on the basis of faith in Christ.

You still don't see it?

Kind of a silly comment about Acts 10:43, huh. It's you who isn't seeing.

 

[corinth77777]

One of our aims is to always try to do what is pleasing in His sight. God has dealt with the sin leading to condemnation issue in Christ interceding on our behalf. Of course we are not perfected yet as we dwell in the body of flesh, but we will someday become fully perfected as it says in Hebrews, we have come to mount Zion, etc...the spirits of justified men made perfect. Our spirits are new creations so we are perfected spiritually to God because of what Christ did, we are dead and our life is hid with Christ in God. Our bodies though are dead because of sin, yet our spirits alive because of His righteousness not of ourselves, see this is God's gift to us who believe and trust in Christ our eternal Savior. Christ said you must be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Well if HE is our Father, then HE will see it gets done. Some of this is the good works HE has created BEFOREHAND for us to do. So before you were saved, God knew you and had everything already worked out, known from eternity are all God's works

2 Corinthians 5:9
[ The Judgment Seat of Christ ] Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

Philippians 4:18
Indeed I have all and abound. I am full, having received from Epaphroditus the things sent from you, a sweet-smelling aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well pleasing to God.

Colossians 1:10
that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Colossians 3:20
Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 2:4
But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.

Titus 2:9
Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back,

Hebrews 13:21
make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 John 3:22
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

We must be perfect...does that mean mature in love?

 

[sdowney717]

We must be perfect...does that mean mature in love?

Read letters of John, those who love God, love those begotten of God. John teaches a lot on loving the children of God.
Perfect really does mean perfect, Jesus is not fooling us with word games.

Work your salvation out with fear and trembling, that is because it is an awesome thing to have God working in your life, and you should reverence Him as Lord in your heart and do the things He commands. One of which is to love His church. The church is composed of the saved saints. Those who are false set themselves apart from the saints, set themselves above the saints, lord it over the saints and will not love God's people.
Moses chose to be with God's people and gave up Egypt.
Hebrews 11
24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.

 

[corinth77777]

Read letters of John, those who love God, love those begotten of God. John teaches a lot on loving the children of God.
Perfect really does mean perfect, Jesus is not fooling us with word games.

Work your salvation out with fear and trembling, that is because it is an awesome thing to have God working in your life, and you should reverence Him as Lord in your heart and do the things He commands. One of which is to love His church. The church is composed of the saved saints. Those who are false set themselves apart from the saints, set themselves above the saints, lord it over the saints and will not love God's people.
Moses chose to be with God's people and gave up Egypt.
Hebrews 11
24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.

That didn't help...but I found something that did the definition...
teleios <5046>
teleiov teleios
Pronunciation: tel'-i-os
Origin: from 5056
Reference: TDNT - 8:67,1161
PrtSpch: adj
In Greek: teleia 1, teleioi 5, teleioiv 1, teleion 7, teleioterav 1, teleiov 3, teleiwn 1
In NET: perfect 12, mature 5, a mature 1, a perfect 1
In AV: perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1
Count: 19
Definition: 1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental
and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588)
completeness:-of full age, man, perfect.
see GREEK for 5056
see GREEK for

 

[-57]

I said this:
"Jesus died for all sins so that God's justice was satisfied and free to treat the human race in grace. Sins MUST be judged, period. That is why Jesus died for all sin."

Jesus' death had the ability to cover all sins....but not all receive Gods mercy.

 

[True Science]

"Chap. XV. - Heretics Not to Be Allowed to Argue out of the Scriptures. The Scriptures, in Fact, Do Not Belong to Them.121

We are therefore come to (the gist of) our position; for at this point we were aiming, and for this we were preparing in the preamble of our address (which we have just completed), - so that we may now join issue on the contention to which our adversaries challenge us. They put forward122 the Scriptures, and by this insolence123 of theirs they at once influence some. In the encounter itself, however, they weary the strong, they catch the weak, and dismiss waverers with a doubt. Accordingly, we oppose to them this step above all others, of not admitting them to any discussion of the Scriptures.124

If in these lie their resources, before they can use them, it ought to be clearly seen to whom belongs the possession of the Scriptures, that none may be admitted to the use thereof who has no title at all to the privilege.



Chap. XVI. - Apostolic Sanction to This Exclusion of Heretics from the Use of the Scriptures, Heretics, According to the Apostle, Are Not to Be Disputed With, but to Be Admonished.

I might be thought to have laid down this position to remedy distrust in my case,125 or from a desire of entering on the contest126 in some other way, were there not reasons on my side, especially this, that our faith owes deference127 to the apostle, who forbids us to enter on “questions,” or to lend our ears to new-fangled statements, (1Ti_6:3-4) or to consort with a heretic “after the first and second admonition,” (Tit_3:10) not, (be it observed,) after discussion. Discussion he has inhibited in this way, by designating admonition as the purpose of dealing with a heretic, and the first one too, because he is not a Christian; in order that he might not, after the manner of a Christian, seem to require correction again and again, and “before two or three witnesses,” (Mat_18:16) seeing that he ought to be corrected, for the very reason that he is not to be disputed with; and in the next place, because a controversy over the Scriptures can, clearly,128 produce no other effect than help to upset either the stomach or the brain.



Chap. XVII. - Heretics, in Fact, Do Not Use but Only Abuse, Scripture. No Common Ground Between Them and You.

Now this heresy of yours129 does not receive certain Scriptures; and whichever of them it does receive, it perverts by means of additions and diminutions, for the accomplishment of it own purpose; and such as it does receive, it receives not in their entirety; but even when it does receive any up to a certain point130 as entire, it nevertheless perverts even these by the contrivance of diverse interpretations. Truth is just as much opposed by an adulteration of its meaning as it is by a corruption of its text.131 Their vain presumptions must needs refuse to acknowledge the (writings) whereby they are refuted. They rely on those which they have falsely put together, and which they have selected, because of132 their ambiguity. Though most skilled133 in the Scriptures, you will make no progress,134 when everything which you maintain is denied on the other side, and whatever you deny is (by them) maintained. As for yourself, indeed, you will lose nothing but your breath, and gain nothing but vexation from their blasphemy.



Chap. XVIII. - Great Evil Ensues to the Weak in Faith, from Any Discussion out of the Scriptures. Conviction Never Comes to the Heretic from Such a Process.

But with respect to the man for whose sake you enter on the discussion of the Scriptures,135 with the view of strengthening him when afflicted with doubts, (let me ask) will it be to the truth, or rather to heretical opinions that he will lean? Influenced by the very fact that he sees you have made no progress, whilst the other side is on an equal footing136 (with yourself) in denying and in defence, or at any rate on a like standing137 he will go away confirmed in his uncertainty138 by the discussion, not knowing which side to adjudge heretical. For, no doubt, they too are able139 to retort these things on us. It is indeed a necessary consequence that they should go so far as to say that adulterations of the Scriptures, and false expositions thereof, are rather introduced by ourselves, inasmuch as they, no less than we140 maintain that truth is on their side.



Chap. XIX. - Appeal, in Discussion of Heresy, Lies Not to the Scriptures. The Scriptures Belong Only to Those who Have the Rule of Faith.

Our appeal, therefore, must not be made to the Scriptures; nor must controversy be admitted on points in which victory will either be impossible,141 or uncertain, or not certain enough.142 But even if a discussion from the Scriptures143 should not turn out in such a way as to place both sides on a par, (yet) the natural order of things would require that this point should be first proposed, which is now the only one which we must discuss: “With whom lies that very faith to which the Scriptures belong.144 From what and through whom, and when, and to whom, has been handed down that rule,145 by which men become Christians?” For wherever it shall be manifest that the true Christian rule and faith shall be, therewill likewise be the true Scriptures and expositions thereof, and all the Christian traditions."
--Tertullian

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Jesus died for all sins so that God's justice was satisfied and free to treat the human race in grace. Sins MUST be judged, period. That is why Jesus died for all sin."

Jesus' death had the ability to cover all sins

No, Jesus' death covered all sins.

....but not all receive Gods mercy.

That is correct. Isa 55:7 tells us upon whom God will have mercy; the one who returns to Him. Says so plainly.

"Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon."

 

[-57]

No, Jesus' death covered all sins.

Well FreeGrace2....you do realize some people will end up in hell? Those people didn't have their sins forgiven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well FreeGrace2....you do realize some people will end up in hell?

What a silly question. Of course I do. So what? What does that have to do with the FACT that Christ died for all, not just some lucky few.

Those people didn't have their sins forgiven.

Right. They never believed in Christ, which is how sins are forgiven. Acts 10:43 - “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Seems you've been under the false impression that when Christ died for sins, He was forgiving those sins. If that was true, then Acts 10:43 is meaningless or worse; a lie.

Forgiveness is not based on who He died for, but who believes in Him.

But, go ahead and try to refute this. With Scripture, not the WCF or any other reformed talking points.

And keep in mind that any verse you may think proves otherwise will then be in direct conflict with Acts 10:43.

I believe the word here is "checkmate"!

 

[-57]

What a silly question. Of course I do. So what? What does that have to do with the FACT that Christ died for all, not just some lucky few.


Right. They never believed in Christ, which is how sins are forgiven. Acts 10:43 - “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Seems you've been under the false impression that when Christ died for sins, He was forgiving those sins. If that was true, then Acts 10:43 is meaningless or worse; a lie.

Forgiveness is not based on who He died for, but who believes in Him.

But, go ahead and try to refute this. With Scripture, not the WCF or any other reformed talking points.

And keep in mind that any verse you may think proves otherwise will then be in direct conflict with Acts 10:43.

I believe the word here is "checkmate"!

I read your response and find it difficult to respond to people who reply for the sake of replying.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I read your response and find it difficult to respond to people who reply for the sake of replying.

Which is obviously why you have completely misunderstood anything in my post. All of my responses are directed to the point of the particular poster and what they said; whether to agree or disagree, and why.

But since there is such a problem with figuring out my posts, I'd suggest that you just ignore them.

 

[Rick Otto]

What a silly question. Of course I do. So what? What does that have to do with the FACT that Christ died for all, not just some lucky few.


Right. They never believed in Christ, which is how sins are forgiven. Acts 10:43 - “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Seems you've been under the false impression that when Christ died for sins, He was forgiving those sins. If that was true, then Acts 10:43 is meaningless or worse; a lie.

Forgiveness is not based on who He died for, but who believes in Him.

But, go ahead and try to refute this. With Scripture, not the WCF or any other reformed talking points.

And keep in mind that any verse you may think proves otherwise will then be in direct conflict with Acts 10:43.

I believe the word here is "checkmate"!

Didn't His death pay for sins?
For what sin does one go to hell if alll those sins are paid for?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I read your response and find it difficult to respond to people who reply for the sake of replying.

I challenged you to refute my comments. That may be difficult to do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Didn't His death pay for sins?

Yes, all sins.

For what sin does one go to hell if alll those sins are paid for?

None of them. No one goes to hell for any sins. Rev 20:15 tells us that those who are cast into the Lake of Fire is because of their not having their names in the book of life.

iow, they never received the free gift of eternal life. Those who do not have God's life, which is eternal life, will spend eternity in the Second Death, as Revelation calls it. They will be spiritually dead, or separated from God, for eternity.