The LAW Paul vs. Jesus

Blade

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Athée,....I've never seen it like that. The two are one. The Law...The OT God said... I will write my? Laws on their hearts and minds. Christ died.. This WORD NT Paul didnt write it. The sweet sweet Holy Spirit that only says what He hears from GOD..said it. That knows the mind the heart of God. 12.. one fell. Then they cast lots something like that and they picked another. God didnt. Then we have Paul.. what did Paul say of himself as? Each one of the 12..then 11 SAW Christ. So did Paul. Anyway..

So..this LAW.. you have..you know. You never had to read the bible ..never had to hear about GOD JESUS to know.. you dont steal, lie murder so for so on. The FREEDOM...is still there. We all have a free choice. God never took the law away. It is IN written in each of us...as it is written "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people." I believe if you read it the way it was ORG written.. you would read " new covenant as new testament.

So bless there hearts but some do not understand what they are saying when they talk about "obeying the LAW..or 10 commandments". Its IN YOU. From what I understand.
 
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Ken Rank

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Yes. The spiritual Law of God is where all creation exists but the Jews didn't understand that. They thought their flesh was the real deal.
No, some did but we can sit together and walk through the Scriptures and you will find many Law keeping lovers of God that He approved of and fellowshipped with... Moses for one... Abraham, David.
 
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Soyeong

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Would not the social and canonical contexts of Lev. 19:34 in effect have implied the goy "sojourner" in question would either have been a proselyte or at least submissive to the Mosaic laws of the land to the extent that such person would knowingly and consistently have avoided causing native Israelite neighbors and associates to become unclean by means of transference via the goy sojourner himself (at least after a probationary period as a novice talmid of sorts)?

And is not the social and religious context of Acts 10:28 chiefly concerned with Jewish social interaction with goy members of an occupying nation over which Jews in many cases had insufficient authority to ensure at least such minimal compliance with Mosaic cleanliness laws as (per the above) assumed in Lev. 19:34?

Granted at least, your above claim constitutes a warning, and very likely in individual cases outside the Peter-Cornelius events, your point is well made (cf. "the good Samaritan" pericope). But can we wholly separate observance of actual Mosaic cleanliness laws from mere oral tradition (cf. Jubilees 22:16) in Peter's Acts 10:28 concern? How far with respect to Mosaic cleanliness laws can we press Cornelius's (and his household's) reputation among Jews prior to Peter's "sheet with animals" vision (of Acts 10)?

Israel was intended to be a light to the nations in order to draw people to God (Deuteronomy 4:5-8, Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6), yet at the same time they were told to have a holy conduct that sets them apart from the nations. So there is a balance between letting no one see your light, letting your light shine, and exposing yourself to the nations so much that you are no longer set apart, and I think that a law that prohibits Jews from visiting or associate with Gentiles does not meet the balance that God intended for them to have. So while it is rooted in how they thought the Mosaic Law should be obeyed, it was a man-made tradition that actually served against it. Furthermore, it was this man-made tradition that Paul called Peter out for following in Galatians 2.

In regard to Peter's vision in Acts 10, it says that all kinds of animals were let down, so why didn't Peter simply kill and eat one of the clean animals as God had commanded? Why did he object to doing what the Mosaic Law permitted him to do? The issue was that there was a man-made ritual purity law that said that kosher food that came into contact with something that was unclean became defiled/common/ritually impure (Mark 7:3-4). All the animals were bundled together in the sheet, so all of the clean animals had been in contact with unclean animals and had become common. By saying that he had never eaten anything that was common of unclean, he was saying that he had never violated either that man-made ritual purity law or God's dietary law, and by refusing to obey the command to kill and eat, Peter was disobeying God to obey man. Note that God did not rebuke him for referring to clean animals as unclean, but to referring to clean animals as common, so his vision had nothing to do with unclean animals becoming clean, but was in only regard to the status of clean animals. Peter interpreted his vision three times and not once did he say anything about unclean animals.

Granting as you write that "living by faith has always been about trusting God enough to live in obedience to His commands," was "the purpose" the Law was "instructed" for the one who lives by such faith mutually exclusive of another "purpose of" the Law as "so that the sin might increase" (Rom. 5:20), notably among those who do not have faith, but who rather seek their own justification by works of the Law? There is also a difference, is there not, between Adonai's purpose(s) of the Law and the purposes of the people who profess to observe the Law in their use of the Law. Granted, "the Mosaic Law was never instructed [by Adonai] for the purpose of becoming justified [esp. in Rom. & Gal. sense]" if I understand you aright. I think of Isaiah, who was called to prophesy "lest they ... understand with their hearts and turn and be healed" (Isa. 6:10, cf. John 12:38-40).

I think that Romans 5:20 is not speaking about God's Law, but rather it is introducing the concept of the law of sin or the evil inclination. In Romans 7, Paul was said that God's law was not sin, but revealed what sin is (7:7), that it was holy, righteous, and good (7:12), that it was the good he sought to do (7:13-20), the good that he delighted in doing (7:22), and that he served with his mind (7:25), but contrasted that with a law of sin that stirred up sin to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held him captive (7:6), that produced all kinds of covetousness and gave sin its power over him (7:8), that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20), that waged war against the law of his mind (7:22), that held him captive (7:23), and that he served with his flesh (7:25). So I think the law being described in Romans 5:20 and Romans 6:14 accurately fits the description of the law of sin and does not at all fit with God's holy, righteous, and good Law.

I think the phrase "works of the law" refers to a third category of law. There is no definitive article in the Greek, so it literally translates as "works of law", which means that it can refer to any laws and does not refer to a specific set of laws, such as God's Law. Paul used it as a catch-all phrase to refer to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences that they taught were needed to be obeyed in order to become saved. I think this understanding of the phrase is also reflected in the Qumran Text 4QMMT.

In Romans 9:30-32, the problem was not that Israel failed to obtained righteousness because they did what God commanded them to do and God gave them faulty instructions, but rather the problem was that they pursued God's Law legalistically as though righteousness were by works instead of pursuing God's Law spiritually as though righteousness were by faith, as the Gentiles were doing. In Exodus, it ends with God's glory descending the the tent of meeting and with the problem of noone being able to approach and Leviticus begins with God calling out instructions for how to draw close to Him, so Leviticus is essentially instructions for how to draw close to God, and that is the meaning of the root word for "korban", yet people can outwardly obey God's Law without drawing close to Him our of faith and love, and thus completely miss the whole purpose. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been keeping the Law stringently, but had completely missed that the whole purpose of the Law was to grow in a relationship with Messiah based on faith and love, so he counted what he had been doing as rubbish. In Romans 10:4, Paul was saying that a relationship with Messiah is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith.
 
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Ken Rank

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Even Peter told what the animals represented... gentiles. If we are supposed to take every vision literally, then anytime we have a sick cow, we better not place it in the same pen with a healthy cow because the sick will eat the healthy.
 
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Look Up

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Israel was intended to be a light to the nations in order to draw people to God (Deuteronomy 4:5-8, Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6), yet at the same time they were told to have a holy conduct that sets them apart from the nations. So there is a balance between letting no one see your light, letting your light shine, and exposing yourself to the nations so much that you are no longer set apart, and I think that a law that prohibits Jews from visiting or associate with Gentiles does not meet the balance that God intended for them to have. So while it is rooted in how they thought the Mosaic Law should be obeyed, it was a man-made tradition that actually served against it. Furthermore, it was this man-made tradition that Paul called Peter out for following in Galatians 2.

In regard to Peter's vision in Acts 10, it says that all kinds of animals were let down, so why didn't Peter simply kill and eat one of the clean animals as God had commanded? Why did he object to doing what the Mosaic Law permitted him to do? The issue was that there was a man-made ritual purity law that said that kosher food that came into contact with something that was unclean became defiled/common/ritually impure (Mark 7:3-4). All the animals were bundled together in the sheet, so all of the clean animals had been in contact with unclean animals and had become common. By saying that he had never eaten anything that was common of unclean, he was saying that he had never violated either that man-made ritual purity law or God's dietary law, and by refusing to obey the command to kill and eat, Peter was disobeying God to obey man. Note that God did not rebuke him for referring to clean animals as unclean, but to referring to clean animals as common, so his vision had nothing to do with unclean animals becoming clean, but was in only regard to the status of clean animals. Peter interpreted his vision three times and not once did he say anything about unclean animals.

Assuming your reading of Peter's vision is entirely correct, I am at a loss to understand how the above response addresses the central question (esp.) of my post, whether because you do not go so far (you do not address Acts 10:28 directly, for example) or because I do not understand some subtle or indirect implication of your response. Going back to your earlier claim again: "In Acts 10:28, we have another example of a reference to an oral law that is not found anywhere in God's Law, and is in fact contrary to it (Leviticus 19:34)." That claim does not seem wholly justified per my above comments & query.

I think that Romans 5:20 is not speaking about God's Law, but rather it is introducing the concept of the law of sin or the evil inclination. In Romans 7, Paul was said that God's law was not sin, but revealed what sin is (7:7), that it was holy, righteous, and good (7:12), that it was the good he sought to do (7:13-20), the good that he delighted in doing (7:22), and that he served with his mind (7:25), but contrasted that with a law of sin that stirred up sin to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held him captive (7:6), that produced all kinds of covetousness and gave sin its power over him (7:8), that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20), that waged war against the law of his mind (7:22), that held him captive (7:23), and that he served with his flesh (7:25). So I think the law being described in Romans 5:20 and Romans 6:14 accurately fits the description of the law of sin and does not at all fit with God's holy, righteous, and good Law.

I think the phrase "works of the law" refers to a third category of law. There is no definitive article in the Greek, so it literally translates as "works of law", which means that it can refer to any laws and does not refer to a specific set of laws, such as God's Law. Paul used it as a catch-all phrase to refer to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences that they taught were needed to be obeyed in order to become saved. I think this understanding of the phrase is also reflected in the Qumran Text 4QMMT.

In Romans 9:30-32, the problem was not that Israel failed to obtained righteousness because they did what God commanded them to do and God gave them faulty instructions, but rather the problem was that they pursued God's Law legalistically as though righteousness were by works instead of pursuing God's Law spiritually as though righteousness were by faith, as the Gentiles were doing. In Exodus, it ends with God's glory descending the the tent of meeting and with the problem of noone being able to approach and Leviticus begins with God calling out instructions for how to draw close to Him, so Leviticus is essentially instructions for how to draw close to God, and that is the meaning of the root word for "korban", yet people can outwardly obey God's Law without drawing close to Him our of faith and love, and thus completely miss the whole purpose. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been keeping the Law stringently, but had completely missed that the whole purpose of the Law was to grow in a relationship with Messiah based on faith and love, so he counted what he had been doing as rubbish. In Romans 10:4, Paul was saying that a relationship with Messiah is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith.

I have a number of disagreements with your exegesis per the above--and of course a number of agreements (more of these)--but that takes us beyond what we can reasonably discuss on this thread and beyond my current energies. I must point you rather for further reference for example to D. Moo's Romans commentary; Charles Lee Irons, The Righteousness of God: A Lexical Examination of the Covenant Faithfulness Interpretation; D.A. Carson et al., Justification and Covenantal Nomism [2 vols.]).
 
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Athée

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Whatever we can under the conditions we are in. Beyond just not stealing, killing, honoring parents (etc.) I think it is possible to refrain from things God never called food (bottom dwelling poop eaters, pork, etc.)... rest on the 7th day, enjoy the others days He set apart and called holy (Passover, First Fruits, Trumpets, etc.) and so forth. These are things Yeshua did, he is supposed to the model we follow, so as best I can I do these things. If I mess up somehow I fear not as I have an advocate in him.
I'm a bit worried that this will seem like a "gottcha" question but I assure you that is not my intent. I'm curious, in light of what you described above about two things. What do you make of commands that would cause you to break current secular laws, for example "you shall not suffer a witch to live"? I also wonder how you feel about the consequences for disobedience to the law. For example you mentioned honouring your father and mother but in the law if there is an intractable and disobedient youth that youth should be killed. Again this is a question to suggest that you or your faith is morally deficient, I am just curious about how you approach the kinds of sensitive topics, such as those raised above, that spring to mind for me when I hear your take on the law :)
 
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Ken Rank

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I'm a bit worried that this will seem like a "gottcha" question but I assure you that is not my intent. I'm curious, in light of what you described above about two things. What do you make of commands that would cause you to break current secular laws, for example "you shall not suffer a witch to live"?

I am not taking it as a "gotcha" unless you give me reason. So no problem at all. :) This is actually pretty simple... the Law (Torah) existed before Mt. Sinai. I can prove this with somewhere between 20-30 examples. So the basic do's and don'ts were fairly well understood before Mt. Sinai. But at Mt. Sinai, Israel was about to become a nation, and a nation needs laws. So, God put in writing the do's and don't but then added the ability to prosecute and punishment when the law was broken. The Torah truly became the rule of law or the constitution of the nation of Israel. When in that culture, one found a witch... there would be a trial, witnesses would be called, she (assuming it was a she) could defend herself (the Torah is based on love and mercy, even Yeshua said this) and if found guilty and the penalty was death, it would be carried out.

Today we do not live in a culture that uses God's Law as the rule of Law. There is no authority given to punish anyone for anything and personally, I am pretty glad that is the case. :) Our nation is so devoid of God that, well... I long for the day that He reveals Himself and we are exposed to less unrighteousness. But as far as administering punishment... there is no authority. I can ask that somebody in sin (perpetual, not a common mistake because we all make them) to stay away from the congregation. But that is about then end of the authority a guy like me would have living in the nations under secular rule.

I also wonder how you feel about the consequences for disobedience to the law. For example you mentioned honouring your father and mother but in the law if there is an intractable and disobedient youth that youth should be killed. Again this is a question to suggest that you or your faith is morally deficient, I am just curious about how you approach the kinds of sensitive topics, such as those raised above, that spring to mind for me when I hear your take on the law :)

That "youth" if you look at the text closely, you'll see it isn't like a 12 year old... this is a young adult. And again, there is no authority in this society to deal with that beyond whatever measure we might within the walls of our congregation. Now, that isn't to say that the 22 year old drunk who punched his dad is going to get 40 lashes inside our walls... that will NEVER happen. But we can shun him, keep him from infecting the congregation. But Athee, that is a last resort... we don't want to push anyone away, we don't want to shun anyone... God extended grace to me when I wasn't worthy of it and I make darn sure that I extend it to those who probably don't deserve it either. :)

So what can we do? Generally the do's and don'ts and perhaps a few things that some consider ceremonial but I personal have been blessed great for. The feasts would be one example. For Sukkot (the Feast of Tabernacles) we actually camp out with about 120 other people for a week. We have class, there are always people playing music somewhere... we gather in the Sukkah (an outdoor temporary tent made of branches and logs) by the fire and discuss Scripture, fellowship... it honestly is my children's favorite time of the year. My daughter is about to graduate high school and go to college and she is already trying to manipulate the calendar so that she can take that week off in early October. :)

Peace.
Ken
 
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Anguspure

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I suspect you are getting that language of fulfillment from Matthews but in that passage it says I came to fulfill the law not abolish it. So whatever fulfilling means it can not be understood as meaning to do away with.
Thoughts?
For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8)

The fulfillment of the law takes place when all accounts are settled. Christ Jesus settles the penalty for sin against the Law with His death.

Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. (Romans 10)
 
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fhansen

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The key that links the whole NT together is the virtue of love. When Jesus gives us the Greatest Commandments, and when Paul in 1 Cor 13 exalts love above all else including faith and hope, and when he tells us that love fulfills the law in Rom 13:8, we’re being told how the law is fulfilled by the Spirit rather than by the Letter, how the heart can be changed so that sin no longer flows from it, how the beatitudes given on the Sermon on the Mount can be authentically fulfilled. This is the difference between the Old and New Covenants. This is what Jesus came to reveal and then to demonstrate by his sacrificial act for us. This, love, is the nature of God which we’re to be transformed into. From there fear, hatred, anger, jealousy, pettiness, etc begin to fade away as it’s replaced by this virtue that causes no harm-that wills only the good for our neighbor.
 
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fhansen

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Athée,....I've never seen it like that. The two are one. The Law...The OT God said... I will write my? Laws on their hearts and minds. Christ died.. This WORD NT Paul didnt write it. The sweet sweet Holy Spirit that only says what He hears from GOD..said it. That knows the mind the heart of God. 12.. one fell. Then they cast lots something like that and they picked another. God didnt. Then we have Paul.. what did Paul say of himself as? Each one of the 12..then 11 SAW Christ. So did Paul. Anyway..

So..this LAW.. you have..you know. You never had to read the bible ..never had to hear about GOD JESUS to know.. you dont steal, lie murder so for so on. The FREEDOM...is still there. We all have a free choice. God never took the law away. It is IN written in each of us...as it is written "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people." I believe if you read it the way it was ORG written.. you would read " new covenant as new testament.

So bless there hearts but some do not understand what they are saying when they talk about "obeying the LAW..or 10 commandments". Its IN YOU. From what I understand.
Yes, Augustine put it this way:
"God wrote on tablets of stone what man failed to read in his heart".
 
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Ken Rank

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The key that links the whole NT together is the virtue of love. When Jesus gives us the Greatest Commandments, and when Paul in 1 Cor 13 exalts love above all else including faith and hope, and when he tells us that love fulfills the law in Rom 13:8, we’re being told how the law is fulfilled by the Spirit rather than by the Letter, how the heart can be changed so that sin no longer flows from it, how the beatitudes given on the Sermon on the Mount can be authentically fulfilled. This is the difference between the Old and New Covenants. This is what Jesus came to tell us and then to demonstrate by his sacrificial act for us. This, love, is the nature of God which we’re to be transformed into. From there fear, hatred, anger, jealousy, pettiness, etc begin to fade away as it’s replaced by this virtue that causes no harm-that wills only the good for one’s neighbor.
Loving God and loving neighbor were the basic principles of the Law from the beginning, even Yeshua said this. About loving God and neighbor he said, "Upon these two hang all the law and prophets." Each and every command can be filed under one or the other, but beyond that, this reveals that love was not a NT creation... it is the major part of an unchanging God's character.

Just an FYI if you care... there was a great argument about the Spirit of and the Letter of the law in the first century. The spirit of is the intent behind the letter. For example... if God said through Moses, "You will not commit adultery," that is the letter of the law. Yeshua revealed the intent behind the letter, the depth behind the letter, the spirit of the command by saying, and I paraphrase, "it isn't just the act, if you are married and look at another woman and desire her, that is also adultery." Love might be the underlying factor here as well, but the spirit of the law in this case isn't so much about love alone... but it is about the heart condition.
 
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fhansen

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Loving God and loving neighbor were the basic principles of the Law from the beginning, even Yeshua said this. About loving God and neighbor he said, "Upon these two hang all the law and prophets." Each and every command can be filed under one or the other, but beyond that, this reveals that love was not a NT creation... it is the major part of an unchanging God's character.

Just an FYI if you care... there was a great argument about the Spirit of and the Letter of the law in the first century. The spirit of is the intent behind the letter. For example... if God said through Moses, "You will not commit adultery," that is the letter of the law. Yeshua revealed the intent behind the letter, the depth behind the letter, the spirit of the command by saying, and I paraphrase, "it isn't just the act, if you are married and look at another woman and desire her, that is also adultery." Love might be the underlying factor here as well, but the spirit of the law in this case isn't so much about love alone... but it is about the heart condition.
And I'd submit that the heart condition changes only due to the virtue of love being molded into it-what else would do it? And that the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:33, placing the law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, is saying the same thing, and accomplished the same way.

In any case whether or not "Loving God and loving neighbor were the basic principles of the Law from the beginning", which they were, at least in the mind of God at that point, the actual achievement of that love in us is the purpose of the New Covenant because the Law couldn't accomplish it, going strictly by the letter alone as it were. He wants us to come to see the evil and futility of sin, and our inability to overcome it on our own even when we try. Righteousness comes from God alone, 'apart from Whom we can do nothing', but 'with Whom all things are possible'. Jesus came to get us authentically back together with God (where we know Him for ourselves-Jer 31:34) and where He then causes us to follow Him in that righteousness, in that love that fulfills the law, as was always meant to be the case for man.
 
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Ken Rank

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And I'd submit that the heart condition changes only due to the virtue of love being molded into it-what else would do it? And that the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:33, placing the law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, is saying the same thing, and accomplished the same way.

In any case whether or not "Loving God and loving neighbor were the basic principles of the Law from the beginning", which they were, at least in the mind of God at that point, the actual achievement of that love in us is the purpose of the New Covenant because the Law couldn't accomplish it, going strictly by the letter alone as it were. He wants us to come to see the evil and futility of sin, and our inability to overcome it on our own even when we try. Righteousness comes from God alone, 'apart from Whom we can do nothing', but 'with Whom all things are possible'. Jesus came to get us authentically back together with God (where we know Him for ourselves-Jer 31:34) and where He then causes us to follow Him in that righteousness, in that love that fulfills the law, as was always meant to be the case for man.
Love is a heart condition, of course. But the idea that there was no love in the OT (some don't even see grace there???) is just not consistent not only with Scripture, but with a God that changes not. If He is a God of mercy and love today, He always has been or He changed. :) The difference between the OT and NT is the Law, which in the OT was written on stone... is being moved to the heart in the NT. But... in the OT God commanded that Israel keep the law on the heart on their own (Deuteronomy 6:6) and they couldn't, at least not 24/7. So, as the mark of the NC, God is doing it for us. The stony heart becomes a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 11:19). Blessings.
 
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fhansen

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Love is a heart condition, of course. But the idea that there was no love in the OT (some don't even see grace there???) is just not consistent not only with Scripture, but with a God that changes not. If He is a God of mercy and love today, He always has been or He changed. :) The difference between the OT and NT is the Law, which in the OT was written on stone... is being moved to the heart in the NT. But... in the OT God commanded that Israel keep the law on the heart on their own (Deuteronomy 6:6) and they couldn't, at least not 24/7. So, as the mark of the NC, God is doing it for us. The stony heart becomes a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 11:19). Blessings.
I said nothing about no love being in the OT-or in God. The difference was in us. With the Incarnation the time was ripe in human history for grace to be poured out in a new and greater way, at a time when we were ready, even if only barely, to receive that grace, that light, that love.

And God's purpose has never been to suddenly ignore justice, but to restore it to His creation. We weren't created to sin after all. Otherwise the entire story of the Fall of man, with all it's drama- all the pain, suffering, and death that ensued- makes little sense. Yes, he must accomplish this in and for us, yet not without our assent and cooperation.
 
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mercy1061

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Fair enough, so do you believe that you should be trying to follow the law today as best you are able?
Of course, but the probation restrictions are different than those who have not been convicted of a crime. The criminal should seek to obey the laws but he may have to obey the strictest view from the law.
 
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mercy1061

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Well done :) as soon as I hit post on theast one I thought to myself that dietary laws were a bad example for this exact reason. Although it does raise an interesting question. It was sinful to eat these things in the ot, but not sinful after Jesus. Jesus sais God cleansed them implying that something has changed. I wonder what changed, what element is no longer present that made them sinful to eat, unclean. What about law categories that Jesus didn't expressly address. Should we still follow those out of obedience do you think?
The law is holy and good. The law has not been changed, the law has not been abolished. The Torah law should be obeyed.
 
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miknik5

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I'm a bit worried that this will seem like a "gottcha" question but I assure you that is not my intent. I'm curious, in light of what you described above about two things. What do you make of commands that would cause you to break current secular laws, for example "you shall not suffer a witch to live"? I also wonder how you feel about the consequences for disobedience to the law. For example you mentioned honouring your father and mother but in the law if there is an intractable and disobedient youth that youth should be killed. Again this is a question to suggest that you or your faith is morally deficient, I am just curious about how you approach the kinds of sensitive topics, such as those raised above, that spring to mind for me when I hear your take on the law :)
Don't go above THE LORD. No one has the right to uproot anything

Wheat and tares will grow together til the end when the LORD will harvest HIS own crops
 
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com7fy8

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Paul says the Law is for exposing sin > Romans 7:7.

Sure and it does so by being a perfect sta dark against which to measure your shortcomings, right?
I think you mean "a perfect standard"; but spell check has been pretty creative, in this case :)

The law can expose sin, but I think Jesus is the really good standard for all which is good. And the New Testament gives us helpful things for following the example of Jesus; for example >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

But the Law does give some helpful things which can bring us to Jesus and how He wants us to love; for example, the commandment to keep the Sabbath includes how one needs to not have one's servants work during the Sabbath. So, the benefit of the Sabbath is meant for servants as well as masters. This can be seen as an example of loving others as yourself, by making sure one's servants get blessed with rest, also. So, this command can help someone to discover how Jesus is and desires for us to love . . . caring about ones who serve us, and not only using anyone :)
 
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DingDing

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I owe you an apology ding ding. I thought your name was ding dong


I am going back to correct this
Apology accepted. (And I have been called much worse.)

But, I have some more for you to think about. I had said in an earlier post:

I can see that you cannot address Luke 1:6 or Malachi 3:18. If you don't have an easy answer, you should ask yourself why?

So here is a 2nd set of questions: why does the mention of these 2 verses initiate such a violent reaction from you and some others? So if Luke - by inspiration of the Holy Spirit - says these things - on what basis does he say them? And what might the verse from Malachi have to add? It seems the assumption of many is that no one living under the Old Covenant could have ever lived acceptable before God. I challenge this assumption. So, do you live perfectly under the New Covenant, or just acceptably? There is much you need to think about. The Old Covenant was not a covenant of works, but a covenant of faith. Those who lived by it lived by faith. If you want to say Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Isaiah, parents of John the Baptist, etc., earned their way in, then go right ahead, but what you don't understand, is that they lived by faith in the covenant they were under, and God accepted them. Now, again, on what basis were they accepted? I maintain it was on the only basis God has ever accepted anyone? Can you tell me what that is?
 
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Neogaia777

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Would the dividing line be love also, law not being true real love, and grace being real love...

Not to say that fulfilling or attaining to the standard law sets, isn't good or just or holy, just the method and way and means of fulfilling or attaining to it's holy standard, i.e. "Love" real, genuine, true love, not to say that fulfilling or attaining to laws standard isn't holy a good... but seeking to attain ones own righteousness (self-righteousness) is selfish and not love, other than maybe a selfish, prideful love of ones own self, but we should seek to attain righteousness out of and for the sake of others by real love, and not for our own selves...

Like Jesus sought it, and attained to it, for the sake and love of others, proving it by using that perfect life to humbly and unselfishly "pay" for others, and/by laying his life down for us all...

Taking our place and giving us his...

What would be attaining to the laws standard for the sake of others and not your own self...?

The law is not bad, but you MUST, MUST attain to it, by a hearing by Faith and in genuine, real, unselfish, not self-centered, or wholly self seeking "Love"...

Studious and strenuous dutiful strict observation and memorization of the law to try (hard) to keep (it) is not the way... You will fail with that method... It must be attained to by unselfish, un-self-seeking real, true Agape Love built on faith of course...

God Bless!
 
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