The Law is eternal...

[k4c]

Like all laws, the sabbath was added. We could rehash the same old debate about when men first set aside a sabbath, but no matter which side we take, we won't alter the fact that the sabbath had a beginning -- like all laws, the sabbath was added.

I share Paul's conclusion that the law was added because of transgression. Therefore, I cannot conclude that any law was added before there was transgression. Further, I note that there is no Biblical basis for conclusing that the sabbath was given to men before sin. I am well aware of the fact that we disagree on this point, and I'm fine with it.

Biblical sabbath keeping includes sacrifices. You seem to claim that the sacrifices ended and that a new form of sabbath keeping has since emerged. Please show us the Scriptures that describe what modern day sabbath keeping should be.

Ultimate question: If the way in which a law is to be kept has changed, is that law truly eternal?

BFA

The Sabbath has never changed, it has always been right and good to do service to God on the Sabbath.

The Law was added because of transgression which means people were breaking God's Law before it was put in writing.

Jesus said the Sabbath was MADE for man and the only man that existed when the Sabbath was MADE was Adam and Eve.

By your responses I can tell you have not read through my web site or at least you haven't spent much time in it. So with this I will have to put you on hold until you read through my web site because it will answer all your questions if your questions have since motives to learn truth.

Here is my web site again... index

 

[k4c]

The seventh day was blessed and santified because God was finished with creation. No mention of sabbath day until Egypt.
Gen 2:3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

There is no metion of any of God's Law until Sinai but we know God's Law existed before sinai otherwise how could sin be at Cain's door and so on and so forth?

If you love God you'll keep His commandments, period end of story.

 

[k4c]

TRUE OR FALSE? The Spirit convicts with respect to sin and righteousnes and judgment.

TRUE OR FALSE? The Spirit existed before the law was added and continues to exist since the Seed has come.

TRUE OR FALSE? The Spirit is God. The law is a shadow that points to God.

BFA

The Spirit will not contradict the will of God and will bring the word of God back to remembrance.

You cannot separate the righteousness of God with His Law for they both reveal the same thing.

Now I refer you to my web site... index

 

[Joe67]

Rom 5:20,21
20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (from New International Version)

Rom 5:14
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, (from New International Version)

Some may see the breaking of a command as not being a qualtity of law. The 10 commandments are an extension of that orally spoken command in the garden which was a command of restraint.

All the law is summed up in one word. Law is not a matter of how many words are employed. "You shall not and in the day you do, you shall die" has been a covenant upon Adam and his sons from the beginning.

Rom 5:18
as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
KJV

2 Cor 3:7
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, KJV

Mt. Sinai was an extension of that which was begun in the garden; i.e., "you shall not" command(s)/law, with their accompanying disobedience, condemnation and death. The creature lacked ability to resist the deception to the woman and necessity in the nature of the man at the tree in the garden, and even more so at Mt. Sinai through the promises coming from their own mouths.

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The Sabbath has never changed, it has always been right and good to do service to God on the Sabbath.

God commanded Israelites to observe the sabbath, in part, by offering special sacrifices. Has this specific expectation changed?

The Law was added because of transgression which means people were breaking God's Law before it was put in writing.

We agree that sin existed before the law was added.

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man

When is the first time we hear about a man doing something with it?

The Spirit will not contradict the will of God

Since the Spirit IS God, that is certainly true.

You cannot separate the righteousness of God with His Law for they both reveal the same thing.

It's interesting that the former can exist without the latter, but the latter cannot exist without the former. God existed before the law was added. God exists since the Seed came. God is the reason why the law existed during its limited tenure.

Without the reality, there is no shadow. The reality can exist without a shadow.

BFA

 

[Cribstyl]

There is no metion of any of God's Law until Sinai but we know God's Law existed before sinai otherwise how could sin be at Cain's door and so on and so forth?

If you love God you'll keep His commandments, period end of story.

False premise. The NT account given about "Adam", "sin" and "the law" are clear in Rom5. (1John's 3:4 dialog was not talking about creation when he explained "sin as transgression of the law")

The fact is, sin was in the world before the law. Here are some NT text that proves Genesis account as accurate.
Rom 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The bible looks at God's commandment to Adam about the tree as a commandment for Adam, not a law. Eating from the tree brought fear, knowledge of good and evil on mankind. Sin was an option for Cain, so why should I consider commandments that were not given or passed down down.

Let God's word be true.

You tell em Joe

 

[k4c]

False premise. The NT account given about "Adam", "sin" and "the law" are clear in Rom5. (1John's 3:4 dialog was not talking about creation when he explained "sin as transgression of the law")

The fact is, sin was in the world before the law. Here are some NT text that proves Genesis account as accurate.
Rom 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The bible looks at God's commandment to Adam about the tree as a commandment for Adam, not a law. Eating from the tree brought fear, knowledge of good and evil on mankind. Sin was an option for Cain, so why should I consider commandments that were not given or passed down down.

Let God's word be true.

You tell em Joe

In the new covenant God writes His Law in our hearts and empowers us to keep them.

Ezekiel 36:26-28 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

 

[Kira Light]

You need to respond to your last acusation before you start your next one. But as far as your above comment goes, your above statement is a perfect example of one who needs to fall in love with God. When someone loves God you won't hear these kinds of statements.

Now let's deal with your last acusation.


And what about all these people, are they followers of EGW? They all believed the Bible as it related to the papcy and the Vatican.

John Calvin (1509-1564) founder of the Presbyterian Church.

John Wesley (1703-1791) founder of the Methodist Church.

SIR ISAAC NEWTON (1643-1727) physicist, mathematician.

John Knox (1505-1572) Scottish Reformer.

Philipp Melanchthon (1497-1560) Associate of Martin Luther.

William Tyndale (1484-1536) 1st translator of Bible.

John Wyclif (1324-1384) Completed the 1st English translation of the Bible.

Charles SPURGEON (1834-92) Respected preacher.

John BUNYAN (1628-1688) Respected preacher.

Charles FINNEY (1792-1875) Respected preacher.

D.L. Moody (1837-1899) founder of Moody Bible institute, Baptist.

Martin Luther (1483-1546) founder of the Lutheran Church.

Listen to what Martin Luther said regarding the Pope.

"Oh Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us the day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan at Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the Apostle Paul wrote that he would oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God — the Man of Sin, the son of perdition . . . What is the Temple of God? Is it stones and wood? Did not Paul say, The Temple of God is holy, which Temple ye are? To sit — what is it but to reign, to teach and to judge. Who from the beginning of the church has dared to call himself master of the whole church but the Pope alone. None of the saints, none of the heretics ever uttered so horrible a word of pride." (Luther's Works, Vol. 2. p. 281).

I'm beginning to believe you are suffering from spiritual blindness inwhich you need to ask God to open your eyes or maybe it's God sending strong delusion.

Pay attention to the words, lawlessness and unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The Law of God defines what is right. If you're born of God you will practice righteousness, not do away with it.

1 John 3:9-10 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Is what I posted only an EGW teaching or is there much, much more to what I post than just your fear of EGW?

I'm not sure what digging up a list of famous people who hated catholics does exactly. I would guess your hatred of the pope and catholics is much more specific and directly related to EGW.

Do you believe that the Catholic Church or the Pope is one of the beasts in revelations? Is the USA another beast? Will there be a Sunday Law?

I'm not just talking about catholic bashing here, I am talking about specifically labeling the pope or the church the beast or the anti-christ. Major bonus points if the NWO or the US government is going to force people to worship the Pope on Sunday!

 

[Byfaithalone1]

In the new covenant God writes His Law in our hearts and empowers us to keep them.

Which laws?

Everything in Exodus 34?

Everything in Leviticus 23?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I'm not sure what digging up a list of famous people who hated catholics does exactly.

I was wondering the same thing.

BFA

 

[Joe67]

The imputation of sin.

Rom 5:13
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. KJV

Was sin imputed to Adam? What happened in Adam happened for us all.

Rom 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; KJV

Rom 2:14-15
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another KJV

The Lord spoke to Ahimelech in a dream that he was a dead man for he had another man's wife in his group of wives.

There was "a law" at work in their conscience, though they did not have "the law" as spoken and written at Sinai.

Joe

 

[k4c]

I'm not sure what digging up a list of famous people who hated catholics does exactly. I would guess your hatred of the pope and catholics is much more specific and directly related to EGW.

Do you believe that the Catholic Church or the Pope is one of the beasts in revelations? Is the USA another beast? Will there be a Sunday Law?

I'm not just talking about catholic bashing here, I am talking about specifically labeling the pope or the church the beast or the anti-christ. Major bonus points if the NWO or the US government is going to force people to worship the Pope on Sunday!

It has nothing to do with individual people, but rather, it has to do with position of authority. It could be pope John, pope Billy, pope Tony the Tiger it doesn't matter because God is not talking about any one specific person, but rather, a kingdom with a leader. And no I don't hate Catholics, my parents are Catholics so don't try to use that line to discredit the truth I speak.

As far as a Sunday law and the beast, you really need to open your eyes.

http://exposingantichrist.com/Pursecution.html

 

[k4c]

Which laws?

Everything in Exodus 34?

Everything in Leviticus 23?

BFA

I know I'm wasting my time but here goes.

Mark 10:17-19 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?'' So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. "You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery,' `Do not murder,' `Do not steal,' `Do not bear false witness,' `Do not defraud,' `Honor your father and your mother.'

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery,'' "You shall not murder,'' "You shall not steal,'' "You shall not bear false witness,'' "You shall not covet,'' and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'' Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Mark 7:8-12 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.'' And He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. "For Moses said, `Honor your father and your mother'; and, `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' "But you say, `If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban (that is, dedicated to the temple)''; "and you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, ''

Read 2 Corinthians 3 and you will see how God equates the Law on stone with the Law now written on the heart. Even if He didn't come right out and say the "Ten Commandments" it can be drawn out from Scripture by what is plainly written and basic common sense.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I know I'm wasting my time but here goes.

Mark 10:17-19 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?'' So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. "You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery,' `Do not murder,' `Do not steal,' `Do not bear false witness,' `Do not defraud,' `Honor your father and your mother.'

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery,'' "You shall not murder,'' "You shall not steal,'' "You shall not bear false witness,'' "You shall not covet,'' and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'' Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Mark 7:8-12 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.'' And He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. "For Moses said, `Honor your father and your mother'; and, `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' "But you say, `If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban (that is, dedicated to the temple)''; "and you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, ''

Read 2 Corinthians 3 and you will see how God equates the Law on stone with the Law now written on the heart. Even if He didn't come right out and say the "Ten Commandments" it can be drawn out from Scripture by what is plainly written and basic common sense.

So what happens to the laws written in Exodus 34 and Leviticus 23? Are you advocating for all of them, or merely some of them? Which do you believe are written on the heart?


BFA

 

[Joe67]

I know I'm wasting my time but here goes.

Read 2 Corinthians 3 and you will see how God equates the Law on stone with the Law now written on the heart. Even if He didn't come right out and say the "Ten Commandments" it can be drawn out from Scripture by what is plainly written and basic common sense.

k4c,

The old was holy, just and good, glorious. The only problem is human nature. Human nature is never changed in this present evil world except to generate more bondage, for sin to come to the full. The law of Sinai was a fuel/food for sin to come alive and to reproduce in human nature to greater bondage. The teaching of creation and morality as taught by the Greeks is an even more powerfully subtle increase of sin with the mind and will of man. When these two systems of thought come together their offspring produces the attitudes of the Saducees and Pharisees of the days of our Lord Jesus, the end of the world.

The new in Jesus is better, more glorious. It is given to war against the natural, human nature and its desires of the flesh in Judaism and of the mind in Greek philosophy, and to wait patiently for the Lord to come from heaven to fulfill all the promises of the salvation of our God.

2 Cor 3:2-11

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. KJV

K4c, there is nothing in this scripture that testifies of equality between the stones through Moses and the ministration of righteousness through Jesus Christ our Lord and High Priest after the order of Melchisedec.

There is a witness to the progressive work of the Lord in his eternal purpose. Moses was the Lord's faithful servant. Jesus is the Lord's faithful son. A faithful servant does not abide in the house forever. A faithful son abides forever.

The Lord does give repentance to those servants who add to his Word. Those servants who take away from his Word, their part to the city/tree of life is taken away and given to another who sought it not. Moses added to the Word when he struck the rock twice and railed upon his brethren. The Lord raised him up and he ministered to the Lord Jesus in the days of his flesh.

2 Corinthians 3 does not directly deal with the corrupting influence of Greek philosophy. This is dealt with in 1 Corinthians 1-3 and in Colossians 2 and in Romans 1.

Joe

 

[k4c]

So what happens to the laws written in Exodus 34 and Leviticus 23? Are you advocating for all of them, or merely some of them? Which do you believe are written on the heart?

BFA

What does Jesus say?

Matthew 13:52 Then he added, "Every teacher of religious law who has become a disciple in the Kingdom of Heaven is like a person who brings out of the storehouse the new teachings as well as the old."

 

[Byfaithalone1]

What does Jesus say?

He confirms that He came to fulfill and He further states that not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Based on this statement from Jesus, we have two choices:

1. All has been accomplished and all jots and tittles have passed;

-OR-

2. All has not been accomplished and none of the jots and tittles have passed.
​

As a result of my study, I currently lean toward #1.

BFA

 

[Kira Light]

It has nothing to do with individual people, but rather, it has to do with position of authority. It could be pope John, pope Billy, pope Tony the Tiger it doesn't matter because God is not talking about any one specific person, but rather, a kingdom with a leader. And no I don't hate Catholics, my parents are Catholics so don't try to use that line to discredit the truth I speak.

As far as a Sunday law and the beast, you really need to open your eyes.

http://exposingantichrist.com/Pursecution.html

I just don't get how you can try to distance yourself from EGW when you follow her pretty much to the letter. You realize this Sunday law stuff is right from her, don't you?

I am just blown away you try to brush off EGW while actively promoting everything she taught. Have some honesty man!

 

[k4c]

I just don't get how you can try to distance yourself from EGW when you follow her pretty much to the letter. You realize this Sunday law stuff is right from her, don't you?

I am just blown away you try to brush off EGW while actively promoting everything she taught. Have some honesty man!

Do you believe Jesus is coming for His people? Well so do the JW's does that make you a follower of the JW's. Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God? Well so do the Mormons does that make you a Mormon?

I have not read any of EGW's writings, except for Steps to Christ and that is questionable as to whether it's her writings.

If you would get over your fear of EGW and just see the facts for as they are you would see that these things were believed by many prominent preachers way before EGW was even alive. So yes, let's be honest.

 

[k4c]

He confirms that He came to fulfill and He further states that not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Based on this statement from Jesus, we have two choices:

1. All has been accomplished and all jots and tittles have passed;

-OR-

2. All has not been accomplished and none of the jots and tittles have passed.
​

As a result of my study, I currently lean toward #1.

BFA

Do you believe lying, stealing, murder and so on is a sin?