The Jellyfish in the brains of science deeply insult mankind.

[Aman777]

Science claims a lot of time is involved in deep space. Not sure what you are trying to say.

I said nothing about deep space but in true Trump fashion, you move the goalposts, just a little. Here's what I posted:

Aman777 said: ↑
Deep time is a figment of your imagination

Try again?

 

[AV1611VET]

I said nothing about deep space ...

Do you believe in deep space? deep time?

I believe in deep space, but not deep time.

Academians sync deep space with deep time, using the speed of light as the catalyst.

I don't.

 

[Aman777]

I don't need to make amends to Mankind, neither did Jesus if he existed - even if Sin were a thing (and I don't accept it is), then I committed no sin by being born. If we were created, then our creator created us imperfect - still not our fault. Your God lays claim to having created Evil in the first place anyway.

Who says you were "created"? If you are subject to death, then you have not been created by God the Trinity but by Jesus, temporarily. God the Trinity ALWAYS creates eternally. Gen 1:26 Gen 5:1-2 and John 14:16

Then, you waffle on about this perfect heaven - are you perfect now that you've accepted Jesus as your savior? Will you be perfect in Heaven when you get there? Jesus was the only "perfect" being (debatable), so he took your sins, but you're still not perfect, are you? You'll be in Heaven and still not perfect, so why the unnecessary sacrifice to get imperfect souls into your 3rd heaven? Why not just forgive his imperfect creations that he made as such in the first place? Your God is a confusing God, this blood sacrifice still doesn't make sense.

Justice demands that to be a perfect Heaven, someone must pay for the injustice suffered by Humans. You cannot because only one without sin can shed His blood of Life to make things right. God is an invisible Spirit, the Spirit of Love and Jesus is the only God ever formed physically. Col 1:15 You seem to be confusing them.

Will you have no sin? will you not think or be the person you are now when you get to heaven? will you feel sorrow for any friends or relatives who don't make it to heaven with you? What will you do for eternity? In your opinion, if Jeffrey Dahmer did repent and went to heaven (as seems likely from what we can tell here), would he be sinless AND the same person he was when he was executed?

My sins are forgiven thanks to Jesus. He will wipe away all tears from my eyes Rev 21:4 in the 3rd Heaven.

Not sure why the quote, is this Jesus admitting he isn't Perfect? or God even?

Jesus is giving His Father, the invisible Spirit of Love, ALL credit. It's typical of Him since He is the most humble of us all. Remember that it repented Him that He had made man on the Earth. Gen 6:6 Jesus is God physically and He is also without sin. Heb 4:15

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do it? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?

 

[Aman777]

Do you believe in deep space? deep time?

I believe in deep space, but not deep time.

Dad is deep in fantasies. IF there was such a thing as "deep time" or former state or whatever, it would be another conspiracy theory which is unsupportable Scripturally.

Academians sync deep space with deep time, using the speed of light as the catalyst.

I don't.

It takes billions of years in man's time for the light from some Galaxies to get to the Earth. The first Stars are gone, blown to smitherines and now inside of us. As Sagan said, We are Star dust. Amen?

 

[AV1611VET]

As Sagan said, We are Star dust. Amen?

Sagan was probably possessed by a spirit working under the muse of academia.

He lived in an Egyptian revival house in Ithaca perched on the edge of a cliff that had formerly been the headquarters of a Cornell secret society.

SOURCE

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Who says you were "created"? If you are subject to death, then you have not been created by God the Trinity but by Jesus, temporarily. God the Trinity ALWAYS creates eternally. Gen 1:26 Gen 5:1-2 and John 14:16

Way to not address the point, Aman, even if I accepted your fantastical interpretation of your holy text.

Point is, your religious interpretation has us being created in the image of your God, and we thereby had no choice over our "imperfect" characters your God allegedly imbued us with. Your God also announced quite proudly that he is the creator of everything, even Evil, so your God is responsible for our fallibility. He also wrote the rules by which we are judged, so he can change them - after all, he's changed other laws and rules...

Justice demands that to be a perfect Heaven, someone must pay for the injustice suffered by Humans. You cannot because only one without sin can shed His blood of Life to make things right. God is an invisible Spirit, the Spirit of Love and Jesus is the only God ever formed physically. Col 1:15 You seem to be confusing them.

I still have no reason to think your God is even real, so I don't really care how you see them, or how you think I'm confusing them. As for your Perfect Heaven, show where Justice demands someone has to pay for Injustice suffered by Humans, let alone it being required for your Perfect Heaven to exist... And since you avoided the points I made in the next section, Will you have no sin? will you not think or be the person you are now when you get to heaven? will you feel sorrow for any friends or relatives who don't make it to heaven with you? What will you do for eternity? In your opinion, if Jeffrey Dahmer did repent and went to heaven (as seems likely from what we can tell here), would he be sinless AND the same person he was when he was executed?

My sins are forgiven thanks to Jesus. He will wipe away all tears from my eyes Rev 21:4 in the 3rd Heaven.

Great! He can forgive me for these alleged "Sins" I was never responsible for while he's at it, right?

Jesus is giving His Father, the invisible Spirit of Love, ALL credit. It's typical of Him since He is the most humble of us all. Remember that it repented Him that He had made man on the Earth. Gen 6:6 Jesus is God physically and He is also without sin. Heb 4:15

Well, it seems to me he's saying he isn't God, it also seems to me that he's saying he isn't all "Good" either. Does Jesus say anywhere in the Bible that he is God in the flesh?

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do it? or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?

Is this verse about your version of God, or Jesus? because Jesus lied, right?

http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/is-it-true-that-jesus-never-lied/​

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Only the saved will live there, so there won't be fighting in the city of love. We are the same person, and recognizable. As for cigars, I suspect that the loving folks there, would not be blowing smoke on others. But I also think there are superior pleasures there, so that possibly many of the vices we once thought of as pleasure would no longer be desirable.

You didn't really make it clear for most of what I asked - When I asked "Would you have free will to punch someone in (the heavenly equivalent of) the face?", I wanted to know if you have the free will you have here, you know, the free will that causes all the problems that prevent us all from going to heaven in the first place? or will you be fundamentally a different person in Heaven who has an altered will to never want to do such things for an eternity?

On the nice Cigar, does this mean you don't know what's in heaven? How do you know what's in heaven, and why would you want to go there if you don't know ahead of time?

Remember that most real believers are underground there, and in other places. To look at some church statistics or something is totally off base.
But if there were tens or hundreds of millions of believers there, that means a lot of future conversions...

and there are hundreds and hundreds of millions more who are real believers of other religions - far more than there are for yours. it goes both ways really...

That depends if you find asking what is actually known by science, and trying to actually believe the bible inane.

What one knows to be (likely) true on the evidence should always trump one's belief, no matter what that belief is. In science, the Bible (and in fact, every Religious document) is not even considered, and is in fact inconsequential to the entire process of Science.

How would I know how atoms worked/would work in a very different set of forces and laws? The end result of the effect on man's life was quite drastic though, and different.

And here's the problem when you put your beliefs ahead of the demonstrable effectiveness of Science. You spout idiotic statements like this and probably do so having no idea how completely idiotic it sounds, especially after demanding that some state past was different and that it looks billions of years old but is only thousands of years old making it obvious to everyone who understands the science, that you literally don't know you're "not even wrong"!

God planted a garden, and weeks later we ate fruit from trees. That seems fast to me. Not like science can pipe in either way. It is stuck in the present state only rut.

Unfounded Assertion, discarded.

Not only before the fall..after. If man lived 1000 years, it is logical that disease did not have the impact it does today.

No man has ever lived a thousand years - not even 200 years. I know you'll never produce evidence of this.

Why tell stories based on squat?

I wouldn't tell stories based on squat, that's entirely your Domain of perfection. the Theory of Evolution is probably the most well substantiated theory in all of science.

Documenting a method that cannot lead to truth is a waste of time.

You're afraid to be disproven, right? C'mon, You can level with me... After all, if you were confident you're right, then you wouldn't be disproven, would you?

The bible already passed all tests.

it hasn't passed any. Care to provide any evidence otherwise? I'll be happy to have a look into it and check the validity for good measure...

 

[Aman777]

Sagan was probably possessed by a spirit working under the muse of academia.

SOURCE

Doesn't matter since chemical elements were made inside the First Stars by Stellar nucleosynthesis. Jesus knew it would happen billions of years after the big bang. That's the miracle. Our God sees the future. Amen?

 

[AV1611VET]

Doesn't matter since chemical elements were made inside the First Stars by Stellar nucleosynthesis.

And here I thought matter can neither be created nor destroyed?

 

[Aman777]

Way to not address the point, Aman, even if I accepted your fantastical interpretation of your holy text.

Point is, your religious interpretation has us being created in the image of your God, and we thereby had no choice over our "imperfect" characters your God allegedly imbued us with. Your God also announced quite proudly that he is the creator of everything, even Evil, so your God is responsible for our fallibility. He also wrote the rules by which we are judged, so he can change them - after all, he's changed other laws and rules...

Only those who have been born again Spiritually are "created eternally". Today, we are in the flesh, just like other animals and dead to God unless we have been born again in Christ Spiritually, eternally, by God the Trinity. Gen 1:26 Gen 5:1-2 and John 14:16 God KNEW evil would exist when He made the air, dust and water, APART from Himself in the beginning. In verse 2, we find the darkness or death which is upon everything physical made of those first elements. At the end of the present 6th Day, death will be destroyed, and we will be as He is. 1Jo 3:2

As for your Perfect Heaven, show where Justice demands someone has to pay for Injustice suffered by Humans, let alone it being required for your Perfect Heaven to exist...

Tell me HOW Heaven can be perfect while the blood of mankind cries from the Earth for their unfair deaths. Unless God's perfect Heaven is perfect, it will cease to exist. Justice for all of the creation MUST be or there is imperfection.

Will you have no sin? will you not think or be the person you are now when you get to heaven? will you feel sorrow for any friends or relatives who don't make it to heaven with you?

The Law of God is perfect BUT only Jesus lived it to perfection. In Heaven, we will be perfect in Christ.

What will you do for eternity? In your opinion, if Jeffrey Dahmer did repent and went to heaven (as seems likely from what we can tell here), would he be sinless AND the same person he was when he was executed?

I would like to have 4 planets, each different. One is eternally Spring, one summer, one fall and the other winter. I would like to dress them and have my loved ones join me there for a continuing reunion.

I didn't know Dahlmer was executed. I thought another prisoner killed him. Since it was murder, I doubt he had time to repent before death.

 

[Aman777]

And here I thought matter can neither be created nor destroyed?

Not so since matter doesn't just pop up, no matter what Science says. God the Trinity created air, dust and water in the beginning and Lord God/Jesus used those physical elements to make everything which exists. In the end, God the Trinity will destroy our physical world as the smoke of the torment of mankind ascendeth up forever. Rev 14:11

Matter can neither be created nor destroyed by man.

 

[dad]

I said nothing about deep space but in true Trump fashion, you move the goalposts, just a little. Here's what I posted:

Aman777 said: ↑
Deep time is a figment of your imagination

Try again?

Most people point to the far universe to support their claims of deep time. So you need to clarify what you lean on. We are not mind readers.

 

[dad]

You didn't really make it clear for most of what I asked - When I asked "Would you have free will to punch someone in (the heavenly equivalent of) the face?", I wanted to know if you have the free will you have here, you know, the free will that causes all the problems that prevent us all from going to heaven in the first place? or will you be fundamentally a different person in Heaven who has an altered will to never want to do such things for an eternity?

When we willingly bring ourselves into line with the loving will of God, we will lose the evil desire to hurt and kill others. Nothing will hurt or destroy in all the kingdom.

On the nice Cigar, does this mean you don't know what's in heaven? How do you know what's in heaven, and why would you want to go there if you don't know ahead of time?

Eye hath ot seen, nor ear heard the wonders God has prepared for those that love Him. Far more wonderful than we could begin to imagine.

and there are hundreds and hundreds of millions more who are real believers of other religions - far more than there are for yours. it goes both ways really...

The belief that matters is belief in Jesus...God's only Son. The way the truth and the Life. Belief in fables/demons etc is of no merit/value in regards to saving us.

What one knows to be (likely) true on the evidence should always trump one's belief, no matter what that belief is. In science, the Bible (and in fact, every Religious document) is not even considered, and is in fact inconsequential to the entire process of Science.

Not to the trained eye. Science religiously avoids/ignores and opposes God's word. No coincidence.

And here's the problem when you put your beliefs ahead of the demonstrable effectiveness of Science.

There is no demonstrated effectiveness whatsoever for origins stories that are considered science.

Trying to hide under the skirt of actual science and knowledge and insist they must come together...is not honest.

You spout idiotic statements like this and probably do so having no idea how completely idiotic it sounds, especially after demanding that some state past was different and that it looks billions of years old but is only thousands of years old making it obvious to everyone who understands the science, that you literally don't know you're "not even wrong"!

How does it sound when you use your religion to declare things old?

No man has ever lived a thousand years - not even 200 years. I know you'll never produce evidence of this.

You have no way of knowing either way.

I wouldn't tell stories based on squat, that's entirely your Domain of perfection. the Theory of Evolution is probably the most well substantiated theory in all of science.

Not at all, it is an embarrassment to mankind. They use the present nature to misread the fossil record/DNA/ etc etc. The vile and insane conclusions they reach alone should have clued them in that they were lost in space.

You're afraid to be disproven, right? C'mon, You can level with me... After all, if you were confident you're right, then you wouldn't be disproven, would you?

Well, at this juncture, after so many wins wins wins wins wins wins, no matter what level science was thrown up at me, it is more a matter of educating people.

it hasn't passed any. Care to provide any evidence otherwise? I'll be happy to have a look into it and check the validity for good measure...

It seems to be pointless discussing the bible with you.

 

[Aman777]

Most people point to the far universe to support their claims of deep time. So you need to clarify what you lean on. We are not mind readers.

"Most people" to you and me are different views. Also, I didn't post "deep time"...AV did. Your confusion is showing.

 

[dad]

"Most people" to you and me are different views. Also, I didn't post "deep time"...AV did. Your confusion is showing.

So you do not believe in deep time? Why the dancing?

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Only those who have been born again Spiritually are "created eternally". Today, we are in the flesh, just like other animals and dead to God unless we have been born again in Christ Spiritually, eternally, by God the Trinity. Gen 1:26 Gen 5:1-2 and John 14:16 God KNEW evil would exist when He made the air, dust and water, APART from Himself in the beginning. In verse 2, we find the darkness or death which is upon everything physical made of those first elements. At the end of the present 6th Day, death will be destroyed, and we will be as He is. 1Jo 3:2

So, your God Knew he was creating evil (as mentioned in Isaiah 45:7), so how is it our fault he did this in such a way when he could've created us perfect?

Tell me HOW Heaven can be perfect while the blood of mankind cries from the Earth for their unfair deaths. Unless God's perfect Heaven is perfect, it will cease to exist. Justice for all of the creation MUST be or there is imperfection.

We aren't perfect even after accepting Jesus sacrifice anyway, so this is a non-sequitur. God created evil in the first place, remember? God could've just created us perfect as both you and @dad indicate he can do in heaven, no matter what we're like here on earth, as I'll point out next:

The Law of God is perfect BUT only Jesus lived it to perfection. In Heaven, we will be perfect in Christ.

And here you admit that God CAN create us (or modify us appropriately to be ) perfect, but chose not to. This is what @dad said too - so both of you concede he can create us (or modify us on arrival in heaven) to be "Perfect" and not want to do things that are allegedly "sinful". If he can do this anywhere, then he could do it here too. Obviously, he chose not to and created us as you say, knowing we would be sharing this earth with evil that he also created.

I would like to have 4 planets, each different. One is eternally Spring, one summer, one fall and the other winter. I would like to dress them and have my loved ones join me there for a continuing reunion.

So, heaven can be anything we want as well as us being perfect at the same time? Again, if God can do it there, he could've done it here too, but chose not to. I still don't see how it's our fault your God wanted to torture us in this life (by comparison) before giving us the opportunity to an eternity in heaven. The "Sacrifice" of a perfect being is unnecessary.

I didn't know Dahlmer was executed. I thought another prisoner killed him. Since it was murder, I doubt he had time to repent before death.

Nope, he had plenty of time as it turns out...:

http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/2006/11/saving-jeffrey-dahmer.aspx

"After performing the requested baptism in 1994, Ratcliff began traveling to the prison for weekly one-hour meetings with Dahmer. In a new book, Ratcliff discusses his experiences--and whether Dahmer's conversion was genuine.One of the most common questions put to me about Jeff has to do with the sincerity of his faith. And I usually hear this from Christians. They ask if Jeff was truly sincere in his desire for baptism and in his Christian life. My answer is always the same: Yes, I am convinced he was sincere.

This question bothers me. Why question the sincerity of another person’s faith? Baptism represents a change in lifestyle. A person is expected to change after being baptized. When people don’t change, we begin to wonder. Why were they baptized? Did they did not fully comprehend what was involved?

I can understand those kinds of questions.

But Jeff’s circumstance was different. The people asking me didn’t know about his post-baptismal life. They were basing their question on what he did before he was baptized, not after. That bothers me."​

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

When we willingly bring ourselves into line with the loving will of God, we will lose the evil desire to hurt and kill others. Nothing will hurt or destroy in all the kingdom.

So we can be perfect here then?

Eye hath ot seen, nor ear heard the wonders God has prepared for those that love Him. Far more wonderful than we could begin to imagine.

Not making any sense - again, how do you know what's in Heaven, or what Heaven is like? How do you know if you are going to be the same person there as you are here?

The belief that matters is belief in Jesus...God's only Son. The way the truth and the Life. Belief in fables/demons etc is of no merit/value in regards to saving us.

To you, that is - not to anyone else. They say that about you and your religion too, so how do we determine who is right?

Not to the trained eye. Science religiously avoids/ignores and opposes God's word. No coincidence.

Oh, Great! How do we "train our eye" then? if this is all that is required, we can start "training" to discern the truth - we can find out though this "training" all the epistemology gaps will be made clear and we can reverse engineer this "training" to work out why your religion matters in Science. Problem Solved! Now, where's this training you speak of?

There is no demonstrated effectiveness whatsoever for origins stories that are considered science.

Trying to hide under the skirt of actual science and knowledge and insist they must come together...is not honest.

Not so much hiding under the skirt and more like right up front carrying the flag - What's not honest is creationists who can't identify the difference in the science that gives you computers, technology and progress and the science that demonstrates an old universe and evolution. After all, they are one and the same.

How does it sound when you use your religion to declare things old?

I don't have a religion, and certainly don't "declare" anything - you must be thinking of someone else. But to answer anyway, normal, sane and rational is how it sounds.

You have no way of knowing either way.

I accept the science that demonstrates otherwise.

Not at all, it is an embarrassment to mankind. They use the present nature to misread the fossil record/DNA/ etc etc. The vile and insane conclusions they reach alone should have clued them in that they were lost in space.

Vaccinations aren't embarrassing, nor is domesticated fruits, vegetables and livestock. Medical treatments and medicines aren't embarrassing either, neither is long life and quality of living.

Well, at this juncture, after so many wins wins wins wins wins wins, no matter what level science was thrown up at me, it is more a matter of educating people.

LOL! Well, what better way to educate people than to submit your beliefs to the process of Science? Just document the process by which you determine true things and we can test it in front of Everyone!

It seems to be pointless discussing the bible with you.

Dang, it's almost as if you know it wouldn't stand the test, or something... Usually we get further than this before you stop answering my questions... Why not convince me why it's true above any other religious text from any other religion? If you could do that, wouldn't I have a reason to believe?

 

[dad]

So we can be perfect here then?

I haven't met anyone perfect yet..have you?

Not making any sense - again, how do you know what's in Heaven, or what Heaven is like? How do you know if you are going to be the same person there as you are here?

Was Jesus the same Person after being raised from the dead? Yes. We shall be like Him.

Oh, Great! How do we "train our eye" then? if this is all that is required, we can start "training" to discern the truth - we can find out though this "training" all the epistemology gaps will be made clear and we can reverse engineer this "training" to work out why your religion matters in Science. Problem Solved! Now, where's this training you speak of?

By being born again our eyes see things in the light of God. Looking at the fables of science we see that their fables are not in His light, but in darkness.

Not so much hiding under the skirt and more like right up front carrying the flag - What's not honest is creationists who can't identify the difference in the science that gives you computers, technology and progress and the science that demonstrates an old universe and evolution. After all, they are one and the same.

Then you identify the difference for us. You seem to think we can't but you can.

I don't have a religion, and certainly don't "declare" anything - you must be thinking of someone else. But to answer anyway, normal, sane and rational is how it sounds.

Denial is a trait of your religion.

I accept the science that demonstrates otherwise.

There is none.

Vaccinations aren't embarrassing, nor is domesticated fruits, vegetables and livestock. Medical treatments and medicines aren't embarrassing either, neither is long life and quality of living.

No relation to any of that and the origin claims like you share a kin with the flatworm.

LOL! Well, what better way to educate people than to submit your beliefs to the process of Science? Just document the process by which you determine true things and we can test it in front of Everyone!

Science cannot test my beliefs or even defend their own. They can't so much as admit they have beliefs.

Dang, it's almost as if you know it wouldn't stand the test, or something... Usually we get further than this before you stop answering my questions... Why not convince me why it's true above any other religious text from any other religion? If you could do that, wouldn't I have a reason to believe?

Man cannot be convinced in his head until he is convicted in his heart. The head is a follower not a leader.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

I haven't met anyone perfect yet..have you?

Nope, can't say I have... so we aren't perfect when you get to heaven then? so it doesn't matter that we're not perfect? Back to it again, do we have free will in Heaven like we do here?

Was Jesus the same Person after being raised from the dead? Yes. We shall be like Him.

Why doesn't God just give us this "heavenly" free will here on earth so we can live up to his expectations from the outset?? Why does he create us imperfect when we could have this "heavenly" character here?

By being born again our eyes see things in the light of God. Looking at the fables of science we see that their fables are not in His light, but in darkness.

wait, I know born again Christians who have no problem with Science and Evolution, etc. so this is a furphy of the highest order! This is False. Try again.

Then you identify the difference for us. You seem to think we can't but you can.

Sure - Are you Ready??

Really Ready??

None. There is NO DIFFERENCE between the Science that gives you technology trinkets, domesticated fruits & veges & quality/longevity of life and the Science that shows a very old universe and Evolution to be fact.

Denial is a trait of your religion.

Weapons Grade Projection. It is Rational to observe all the evidence in support of Evolution and the very old universe and accept that to be the case while noting there's no supporting evidence for a young earth and universe.

There is none.

Yep, none - like the Theory of General and Special Relativity, Atomic Theory, the Theory of Evolution- you know, that kind of none.

No relation to any of that and the origin claims like you share a kin with the flatworm.

and cockroaches, and mould, and bananas, etc. we share ancestry with pretty much all life on this planet. That too is demonstrated by Science to be the most likely case, and no competing idea (let alone hypothesis) in science otherwise.

Science cannot test my beliefs or even defend their own. They can't so much as admit they have beliefs.

Tacit admission you know it won't stand the test?

Man cannot be convinced in his head until he is convicted in his heart. The head is a follower not a leader.

Sure. That Deepity is right up there with "Faith". We know that people are fallible and Science is the best way to counter that bias in order to filter fact from fiction. Confirmation bias is all that following your heart will get you. Don't get me wrong, following your heart is Great in relationships, but rotten in discerning matters of Fact.

 

[Ophiolite]

Do you love your family ?

I love my extended family, including my fellow apes, all cats, the cephalopoda, most bacteria, but drawing the line at the larger arachnids and all cockroaches.