The Jellyfish in the brains of science deeply insult mankind.

[Aman777]

So you do not believe in deep time? Why the dancing?

Today is the 6th Creative Day, which means that it was less than 6 Days ago when God created air, dust and water. The only "deep time" is in the thinking of mortal men. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

So, your God Knew he was creating evil (as mentioned in Isaiah 45:7), so how is it our fault he did this in such a way when he could've created us perfect?

God didn't want Robots, but instead, Humankind with a mind like His. Genesis 3:22

And here you admit that God CAN create us (or modify us appropriately to be ) perfect, but chose not to.

Because a singles sinner would destroy His perfect Heaven, which has NO sin.

So, heaven can be anything we want as well as us being perfect at the same time?

No, it's better than that. 1Co 2:9

Nope, he had plenty of time as it turns out...:

Jesus fulfilled baptism in water. His baptism is with fire:

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He (Jesus) shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Was Dahmer born again Spiritually in Christ? Romans 8:9

 

[dad]

Nope, can't say I have... so we aren't perfect when you get to heaven then? so it doesn't matter that we're not perfect? Back to it again, do we have free will in Heaven like we do here?

Of course. As for being made perfect, it is my understanding that is something of a work in progress that only gets finished on the other side.

Why doesn't God just give us this "heavenly" free will here on earth so we can live up to his expectations from the outset?? Why does he create us imperfect when we could have this "heavenly" character here?

We have free will here. It isn't all that heavenly at the moment, so there needs to be some limits to the damage we could do etc.

wait, I know born again Christians who have no problem with Science and Evolution, etc. so this is a furphy of the highest order! This is False. Try again.

I have no problem with evolution...things evolved after being created and kinds adapted etc. I have no problem with science...actual knowledge and present state fishbowl physics at work here and now. If someone has a problem with creation, and embraces evolution and 'science' to the degree that they disbelieve in creation...that is a problem. Not a problem I intend to deal with on this forum though, as there is no mechanism for differentiating here, and no tolerance of it either.

None. There is NO DIFFERENCE between the Science that gives you technology trinkets, domesticated fruits & veges & quality/longevity of life and the Science that shows a very old universe and Evolution to be fact.

Then show us the connection. Show how anything anywhere in or out of science depends on a same state past?

Weapons Grade Projection. It is Rational to observe all the evidence in support of Evolution and the very old universe and accept that to be the case while noting there's no supporting evidence for a young earth and universe.

Weapons Grade Projection. It is Rational to observe all the evidence in support of evolution as a result of and after the fact of creation. Seeing the claims of a very old universe as religion and belief based, and accepting that to be the case while noting there's no supporting evidence for a old earth and universe is the only rational position.
I kid you not.

Yep, none - like the Theory of General and Special Relativity, Atomic Theory, the Theory of Evolution- you know, that kind of none.

Correct none of that even deals with either what nature used to exist on earth, or what time itself blended with space is like in the far universe. Not in the least way.

and cockroaches, and mould, and bananas, etc.

? Citing these things helps your belief system somehow??

we share ancestry with pretty much all life on this planet.

The way you deduce ancestry is shared in the far past on earth is religious drivel.

Sure. That Deepity is right up there with "Faith". We know that people are fallible and Science is the best way to counter that bias in order to filter fact from fiction.

The best way is look to the One true Living Almighty God. Science is merely another religion and a way to fail with absolute predictability and certainty.

Confirmation bias is all that following your heart will get you. Don't get me wrong, following your heart is Great in relationships, but rotten in discerning matters of Fact.

When the relationship is with God, He sends heavenly wi fi signals (communication by His spirit) that contain greater intelligence than our little brains of flesh. If our heart is right and we give permission for the broadcasts to begin of course. It is not in any way just a brain thing. Many people with weak or sick brains can still have the connection with God.

 

[dad]

Today is the 6th Creative Day,

I thought that when Gen 2 said it was finished that, well the creation days were finished. It was very good.

which means that it was less than 6 Days ago when God created air, dust and water.

No. Nothing remotely similar to that.

The only "deep time" is in the thinking of mortal men. Amen?

No idea what you are trying to say. Does this mean you do not believe in millions of billions of years ago?

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

God didn't want Robots, but instead, Humankind with a mind like His. Genesis 3:22

Sure, but as you're about to admit, he could've created us perfect so that we could live up to the standards required of Heaven without a barbaric sacrifice, but chose not to, here as follows:

Because a singles sinner would destroy His perfect Heaven, which has NO sin.

so Here, you admit that we can get into Heaven and would be Perfect when we get there, because your Heaven requires it, in short, God can make us Perfect in Heaven but chose to not make us Perfect on Earth - Your God admits to creating Evil and you admit that God knew evil would be an inherent part of his Creation, but created it anyway. This is therefore God's doing that we are not perfect and he could easily have made us perfect to start with by your own admission.

No, it's better than that. 1Co 2:9

and here, you admit that nothing is impossible with your God, so why didn't he make us Perfect here on earth and save all the problems that Evil brings with it? In the previous two points discussed above, you show that your God can correct you to be perfect while you're still the person you are, so he could've made you perfect from the start and saved all the problems he created here on Earth. He chose not to, so he is responsible for how we are and we therefore don't have anything to answer for. Because he is all-powerful, he also has the power to forgive us without the need of a blood sacrifice. Jesus never had to die, let alone die for our alleged "Sins" in the first place.

Jesus fulfilled baptism in water. His baptism is with fire:

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He (Jesus) shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Was Dahmer born again Spiritually in Christ? Romans 8:9

His Pastor is very confident he was. Didn't you read the linked story? http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/2006/11/saving-jeffrey-dahmer.aspx

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Of course. As for being made perfect, it is my understanding that is something of a work in progress that only gets finished on the other side.

Why wait until the other side to be "finished"? if it can be done at all, then it can be done here - or is God not all-powerful?

We have free will here. It isn't all that heavenly at the moment, so there needs to be some limits to the damage we could do etc.

Well, again, if there is free will that is fit for Heaven, then it exists and could be here with us now, but isn't. Why not give this heavenly will to us here on Earth, doesn't God love us? Is God not all-powerful?

I have no problem with evolution...things evolved after being created and kinds adapted etc. I have no problem with science...actual knowledge and present state fishbowl physics at work here and now. If someone has a problem with creation, and embraces evolution and 'science' to the degree that they disbelieve in creation...that is a problem. Not a problem I intend to deal with on this forum though, as there is no mechanism for differentiating here, and no tolerance of it either.

I get you don't want to tackle it here, we've been over all the evidence why you're mistaken before, and quite thoroughly - you never did provide any evidence whatsoever of your "different state past" and I'll even go so far as to suggest you'll never be able to.

Then show us the connection. Show how anything anywhere in or out of science depends on a same state past?

Lorenz Equation, Wien's Law, Theory of General and Special Relativity, Theory of Evolution, Geology, Cosmology, Atomic Theory to name a few off the top of my head.

Weapons Grade Projection. It is Rational to observe all the evidence in support of evolution as a result of and after the fact of creation. Seeing the claims of a very old universe as religion and belief based, and accepting that to be the case while noting there's no supporting evidence for a old earth and universe is the only rational position.
I kid you not.

Show me the rational basis for Creation when no evidence of a Creator has ever been found.

Show me the rational basis for seeing the claims of a very old universe as religion, show me how there's no supporting evidence for a old earth and universe in light of the evidence we have in Lorenz Equations, Wien's Law, Theory of General and Special Relativity, Theory of Evolution, Geology, Cosmology and Atomic Theory.

Correct none of that even deals with either what nature used to exist on earth, or what time itself blended with space is like in the far universe. Not in the least way.

It Sure Does! Your ignorance on how and where it applies is your own failing.

Rates of Mutation in the Theory of Evolution show with a degree of accuracy that all life forms are related and that there's been hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of detectable generations in all living things we can observe today. Genetics show ERVs are accumulated at a rate that's impossible to see within tens of thousands of years without killing everything on earth, and in many cases is impossible to be contracted as a disease by the modern form of the genome it is currently found in.

Geology shows geological structures and formations that are impossible to be formed within tens of thousands of years, they include ancient buried coral reefs, salt formations hundreds to thousands of feet thick, oil, coal, stratified bushfires, forest growth and fossilised animal activity, footprints & remains that could only take place if the area was slow forming, all discounting any rational consideration that it could happen quickly, layer upon layer, upon layer throughout the ages until today.

Relativity and cosmology show we can see celestial objects billions upon billions of light years away when the Universe was young, we can determine the characteristics and composition of stars, locate their distance from us via several independent lines of observation that all converge on the same measurement, we can discern their composition using spectral analysis combined with what we know about atomic theory and Einstein's Relativity, we can observe supernova as they happen after detecting the preceding gamma ray burst that could only precede it because of the vast distances in space, which in turn is another point of data that verifies the distance to said supernova, we can observe some supernova more than once due to gravitational lensing that again, couldn't happen if the observed supernova was less than tens of thousands of light years away, etc.

That's just a handful I thought of right off the top of my head.

? Citing these things helps your belief system somehow??

We share ancestry with all life on this planet - are you too proud to acknowledge your humble roots?

The way you deduce ancestry is shared in the far past on earth is religious drivel.

Except for all the evidence in the aforementioned genetic record we carry around with us - ERVs and Mutation rates in genes are a couple of knock-down arguments I've never seen a Creationist address sufficiently, let alone give plausible alternatives for...

The best way is look to the One true Living Almighty God. Science is merely another religion and a way to fail with absolute predictability and certainty.

except Science shares none of the traits of a religion, especially your religion. There are no authorities in Science, no scientific writing is taken as unquestionable (Everything is questioned repeatedly!), the Scientific Method is about the only "ritual" that is observed by scientists, and for good reason - so in reality, Science is no more a religion than, say, Technology is.

Ironically, your continual attempts at denigrating Science as a Religion belies your tacit admission that Religion is not a reliable method at all to come by the truth of something - you never ever see rational people accusing Religious people of "merely being Rational!" I laugh at the idea that rational people could ever be seen as trying to convince Religious people of just being Rational people instead! it's Hysterical! Your desperation shows the substance of your true argument when you do this... lol!

When the relationship is with God, He sends heavenly wi fi signals (communication by His spirit) that contain greater intelligence than our little brains of flesh. If our heart is right and we give permission for the broadcasts to begin of course. It is not in any way just a brain thing. Many people with weak or sick brains can still have the connection with God.

Great! I'm listening.... personally, I think a damascus road experience would be more convincing, but that's just me and my little fleshy brain being rational...

 

[dad]

Why wait until the other side to be "finished"? if it can be done at all, then it can be done here - or is God not all-powerful?

Well, again, if there is free will that is fit for Heaven, then it exists and could be here with us now, but isn't. Why not give this heavenly will to us here on Earth, doesn't God love us? Is God not all-powerful?

I get you don't want to tackle it here, we've been over all the evidence why you're mistaken before, and quite thoroughly - you never did provide any evidence whatsoever of your "different state past" and I'll even go so far as to suggest you'll never be able to.

I do not need to know. That is no excuse for you not knowing when you claim to know.

Lorenz Equation, Wien's Law, Theory of General and Special Relativity, Theory of Evolution, Geology, Cosmology, Atomic Theory to name a few off the top of my head.

Why cite beliefs? Can you use anu of these to prove that the forces of nature existed the same in the past on earth, or that time exists in deep space the same as here?

Show me the rational basis for Creation when no evidence of a Creator has ever been found.

The evidence for God is found. The problem is that it is something people run away from..or run toward.

Show me the rational basis for seeing the claims of a very old universe as religion, show me how there's no supporting evidence for a old earth and universe in light of the evidence we have in Lorenz Equations, Wien's Law, Theory of General and Special Relativity, Theory of Evolution, Geology, Cosmology and Atomic Theory.

Easy to do! Just post anything from any of those you thought you thought were supporting an old earth.

It Sure Does! Your ignorance on how and where it applies is your own failing.

Your fail to demonstrate that it applies to time in deep space or nature in the deep past on earth speaks loudly.

Rates of Mutation in the Theory of Evolution show with a degree of accuracy that all life forms are related and that there's been hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of detectable generations in all living things we can observe today.

No. They don't in any way. Only your religion shows that inside your own head.

Genetics show ERVs are accumulated at a rate that's impossible to see within tens of thousands of years without killing everything on earth, and in many cases is impossible to be contracted as a disease by the modern form of the genome it is currently found in.

Great...so? Who cares what is possible or not in the present nature?

Geology shows geological structures and formations that are impossible to be formed within tens of thousands of years, they include ancient buried coral reefs, salt formations hundreds to thousands of feet thick, oil, coal, stratified bushfires, forest growth and fossilised animal activity, footprints & remains that could only take place if the area was slow forming, all discounting any rational consideration that it could happen quickly, layer upon layer, upon layer throughout the ages until today.

Only if one imagines they were laid down in this state/nature would one invoke great time.

Relativity and cosmology show we can see celestial objects billions upon billions of light years away when the Universe was young,

No. They are used in connection with your belief that time exists out there as it does here, when that belief has zero support. All ages/distances depend on this one belief.

we can determine the characteristics and composition of stars,

No! You can detect some of the things out there that we are familiar with and that our instruments can detect. What ELSE may be also out there we cannot see is NOT known! In fact they simply declare 95% OF THE UNIVERSE UNSEEN, UNKNOWN DARK STUFF/ENERGY.

They proceed to try and explain that great unknown by running belief based computer models and fishbowl theories/concepts/laws etc.

locate their distance from us via several independent lines of observation that all converge on the same measurement,

False. Parallax is the first rung on the cosmic ladder and it uses time and space in their measures. The base line in a parallax triangle always comes from the solar system, and therefore it also represents time, not just space. The lines drawn to stars as the other lines in the triangle are supposed to be representing the same thing. They do not/cannot since we do not know that time and space are the same all the way.

we can observe supernova as they happen after detecting the preceding gamma ray burst that could only precede it because of the vast distances in space,

Oh? So if a burst comes from a billion light years away, for example, you think it took a billion years to get here! Since no distances are actually known due to the time issue mentioned, we have no idea how much time was actually involved! SO YOU LOOK AT LIGHT AND NEUTRINOS ARRIVING HERE a small time apart and try to add your silly religious impositions on that little fact! Truly absurd once we kow your game.

which in turn is another point of data that verifies the distance to said supernova, we can observe some supernova more than once due to gravitational lensing that again, couldn't happen if the observed supernova was less than tens of thousands of light years away, etc.

Baloney! Just because a star twinkles or flashes or whatever routinely or more than once, does not mean it is because of anything at all to do with your religion.

We share ancestry with all life on this planet - are you too proud to acknowledge your humble roots?

No we don't. Your religion is wrong.

Except for all the evidence in the aforementioned genetic record we carry around with us - ERVs and Mutation rates in genes are a couple of knock-down arguments I've never seen a Creationist address sufficiently, let alone give plausible alternatives for...

No genetics of this nature would even matter if the different nature past genetics were not the same. You just believe for no reason they were.

except Science shares none of the traits of a religion, especially your religion. There are no authorities in Science, no scientific writing is taken as unquestionable (Everything is questioned repeatedly!), the Scientific Method is about the only "ritual" that is observed by scientists, and for good reason - so in reality, Science is no more a religion than, say, Technology is.

Just because your sandy/shaky ground religion is constantly being shown wrong and cooking up new fables does not mean that that the foolish fables are not taught to the innocents as truth! The professors and scientists and other officials of your religion are indeed ritualistically peddling beliefs.

Ironically, your continual attempts at denigrating Science as a Religion belies your tacit admission that Religion is not a reliable method at all to come by the truth of something

Look, beliefs are like belly buttons, everyone has one. I can see why you do not want to get in the mickey mouse line up of also ran beliefs. Too bad. It is what it is.

I laugh at the idea that rational people could ever be seen as trying to convince Religious people of just being Rational people instead!

You thought rational had to do with a lack of any beliefs? That is irrational.

 

[Aman777]

I thought that when Gen 2 said it was finished that, well the creation days were finished. It was very good.

The word finished in Hebrew means "brought to perfection" which is the ONLY way God's work can be finished. We continue to live at Gen 1:27 because God is STILL creating mankind in His Image, which is Spiritually in Christ. The prophecy of Gen 1:28-31 is FUTURE to our time.

 

[dad]

The word finished in Hebrew means "brought to perfection" which is the ONLY way God's work can be finished. We continue to live at Gen 1:27 because God is STILL creating mankind in His Image, which is Spiritually in Christ. The prophecy of Gen 1:28-31 is FUTURE to our time.

Since it was very very in His mind when finished, I would remind you that we are not stuck in Gen 1. We are awaiting the Rapture and return of Christ.

The world was finished being created in Gen. The changes we believers go through here and/or the other side, and the changes the earth goes through/will go through are changes to what already was created. God rested notice the tense there..past tense, after it was created and finished. Just because it was finished being created does not mean His plan of Salvation was yet finished, or the kingdom had come to earth yet etc etc etc.

There will always be exciting changes, that is part of being alive. If one waits till all changes are done to consider things finished one will wait forever. What was finished by verse one chapter two in Genesis was the creation of the world and life here and stars etc.

 

[Aman777]

you admit that nothing is impossible with your God, so why didn't he make us Perfect here on earth and save all the problems that Evil brings with it?

Because we were given an intelligence like God's. Genesis 3:22 If you haven't noticed Humankind is evil in his every thought. Gen 6:5 We became this way when Humans married and produced children with the sons of God (prehistoric people). Genesis 6:4

Human destiny is to have dominion or rule over "every living thing that moveth". Genesis 1:28 Such a responsibility requires a thorough vetting. Only those who are "perfect" will receive such an honor. Jesus tells us how to get to Heaven.....

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[Aman777]

His Pastor is very confident he was. Didn't you read the linked story? http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/2006/11/saving-jeffrey-dahmer.aspx

Of course I read it and it is a good moral story BUT the Pastor could NOT tell us IF the man was a Christian or not. It's his opinion. I like God's view better.

Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Aman777]

Since it was very very in His mind when finished, I would remind you that we are not stuck in Gen 1. We are awaiting the Rapture and return of Christ.

Is God STILL creating Humankind in Christ Spiritually? Of course He is. Have Humans already obtained dominion or rule over "every living creature" since mosquitoes viruses and Angels are not yet under our rule? IOW Gen 1:28 happens AFTER the return of Jesus at Armageddon, at the end of the present 6th Day/Age of the Creation of the perfect Heaven. We live today at Genesis 1:27 because God the Trinity is STILL creating people in Christ Spiritually.

God rested notice the tense there..past tense, after it was created and finished.

Not so since Jesus has not yet changed Lions and Bears into Vegetarians as Genesis 1:30 AND Isaiah 11:7 states. This happens AFTER Jesus returns at Armageddon and you CANNOT refute that Scripturally. The word rested is the Hebrew word for "ceasing". God doesn't get tired and the reason for His resting is to show WHEN God will STOP creating forever. Genesis 2:1-3 God rests/ceases from ALL of His creating.

When God has made His creation perfect at the end of the present 6th Day/Age, God will rest or cease from ALL of His creating because it will be perfect, and filled with it's "host" which includes the LAST person created in Christ Spiritually. Genesis 2:1

If one waits till all changes are done to consider things finished one will wait forever. What was finished by verse one chapter two in Genesis was the creation of the world and life here and stars etc.

Not really, since our entire Universe will be burned. ll Peter 3:10 Just as Adam's sin cursed his world, our world is cursed by the murder of our God on the Cross. Christians will go the the 3rd Heaven forever after Jesus has ruled and reigned with us for a thousand years on Earth. Rev 20:6 Amen?

 

[dad]

Is God STILL creating Humankind in Christ Spiritually?

I have little doubt that He will continue to create lots of things forever. So?

Of course He is. Have Humans already obtained dominion or rule over "every living creature" since mosquitoes viruses and Angels are not yet under our rule?

Hey, who says that Adam did not have dominion?

IOW Gen 1:28 happens AFTER the return of Jesus at Armageddon, at the end of the present 6th Day/Age of the Creation of the perfect Heaven. We live today at Genesis 1:27 because God the Trinity is STILL creating people in Christ Spiritually.

No. I live post Revelation. Not just in the first chapter of the bible.

Not so since Jesus has not yet changed Lions and Bears into Vegetarians as Genesis 1:30 AND Isaiah 11:7 states. This happens AFTER Jesus returns at Armageddon and you CANNOT refute that Scripturally. The word rested is the Hebrew word for "ceasing". God doesn't get tired and the reason for His resting is to show WHEN God will STOP creating forever. Genesis 2:1-3 God rests/ceases from ALL of His creating.

Changes are forever. That does not mean lions were created after the kingdom comes.

Not really, since our entire Universe will be burned.

If that were true, so what? First it had to be created.

ll Peter 3:10 Just as Adam's sin cursed his world, our world is cursed by the murder of our God on the Cross.

I think it goes more like this...Adam brought sin into the world, and death. Jesus with His death brought salvation for man into the world.

Christians will go the the 3rd Heaven forever after Jesus has ruled and reigned with us for a thousand years on Earth. Rev 20:6 Amen?

Let's not get ahead of yourself. After all you think you are still back in Gen 1!

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

I do not need to know. That is no excuse for you not knowing when you claim to know.

Deliberate and obtuse ignorance? Great defence mechanism...

Any reason you didn't address these, or were all of them included under "I DON'T CARE TO KNOW AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME LOOK, LALALALALALALALALA!!!":

"Why wait until the other side to be "finished"? if it can be done at all, then it can be done here - or is God not all-powerful?

Well, again, if there is free will that is fit for Heaven, then it exists and could be here with us now, but isn't. Why not give this heavenly will to us here on Earth, doesn't God love us? Is God not all-powerful?"​

Why cite beliefs? Can you use anu of these to prove that the forces of nature existed the same in the past on earth, or that time exists in deep space the same as here?

All of them have been and are currently being used to demonstrate both the same state past and that time exists in deep space the same as here. If you took the time to learn the science, you'd understand why. Obviously I can't teach you Science if you won't learn it, so it's on you to take the time - it isn't hard.

The evidence for God is found. The problem is that it is something people run away from..or run toward.

Then what is it? Where is it? Why is it such a secret?

Easy to do! Just post anything from any of those you thought you thought were supporting an old earth.

I did this already for which you're about to give the most pathetically lame sidestep you've ever made, even in our conversations:

For example, I listed how Rates of Mutation in the Theory of Evolution show with a degree of accuracy that all life forms are related and that there's been hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of detectable generations in all living things we can observe today. Your response:

No. They don't in any way. Only your religion shows that inside your own head.

Lame. Not even an attempt to show why it's wrong, just a pouty "NUP!" like a petulant child. Ironically, the mutation rate across just the human race that's alive today demonstrates tens of thousands of generations - unless you have changed your stance on beneficial mutations being near 99% beneficial, because that mutation rate is impossible in a timeframe of barely a couple of hundred generations without killing Everyone! lol! Again, you're so wrong, that you're not even Wrong to start with! You don't even have the education to offer an argument as to why it's wrong, you just don't want it to be right. You know, lying to yourself doesn't make the facts go away, right?

Then, I gave you Genetics that show ERVs are accumulated at a rate that's impossible to see within tens of thousands of years without killing everything on earth, and in many cases is impossible to be contracted as a disease by the modern form of the genome it is currently found in.

Great...so? Who cares what is possible or not in the present nature?

Pathetic. Still no evidence, or facts, or even reasoning as to why you think it's wrong, let alone that some other state existed in some invisible past, just that it Has to be wrong because you desperately need to be right to protect your obviously faulty interpretation of your holy text. Again, denial doesn't make any of the facts and evidence go away.

Then I brought up how Geology shows geological structures and formations that are impossible to be formed within tens of thousands of years, they include ancient buried coral reefs, salt formations hundreds to thousands of feet thick, oil, coal, stratified bushfires, forest growth and fossilised animal activity, footprints & remains that could only take place if the area was slow forming, all discounting any rational consideration that it could happen quickly, layer upon layer, upon layer throughout the ages until today. You responded with:

Only if one imagines they were laid down in this state/nature would one invoke great time.

Not a whisker of effort put into your denialism here, no attempt to explain away any of the points I made, just another "I CAN'T HEAR YOU, LALALALALALALA!" style response. I reckon you Know in your heart that your interpretation is incorrect and that reality shows us all a very different universe to the one you wish to be true - unfortunately for you (like Alcoholics Anonymous), you first have to admit to yourself that you could be mistaken before you can move on to working out what God actually exists rather than this fantasy version of God you must know can't be real. Plenty of Christians have been able to believe in God and accept the Science which has progressed us as far as it has, but this denial you're holing onto is really just holding you back. You need to let go of this.

Then, I pointed out how Relativity and cosmology show we can see celestial objects billions upon billions of light years away when the Universe was young, you responded with:

No. They are used in connection with your belief that time exists out there as it does here, when that belief has zero support. All ages/distances depend on this one belief.

You keep calling it a belief system in a continuation of denial that points out your interpretation of your religion is demonstrably wrong. If time were different, we would notice it here, either we wouldn't see stars out there, or the Universe would be too hot for existence for all the stars that would have to be close enough for us to see them. Your failure to understand these simple concepts boggles my mind...

Then I continue on, saying we can determine the characteristics and composition of stars, and you respond with:

No! You can detect some of the things out there that we are familiar with and that our instruments can detect. What ELSE may be also out there we cannot see is NOT known! In fact they simply declare 95% OF THE UNIVERSE UNSEEN, UNKNOWN DARK STUFF/ENERGY.

They proceed to try and explain that great unknown by running belief based computer models and fishbowl theories/concepts/laws etc.

What is your reasoning for denying what we do know because we can only detect some things out there that we are familiar with? We can determine quite a lot about stellar objects we can see, you have completely failed to address this with anything meaningful at all. Demanding that we can only detect "some of the things" while not knowing about 95% of the gravitational effects we see, despite everything we can and have determined about stellar objects, doesn't discount what we do detect and discern. You haven't addressed that and simply attempted to misdirect to a non-sequitur about our observation of gravitational anomalies.

Then I continue; locate their distance from us via several independent lines of observation that all converge on the same measurement, and you respond:

False. Parallax is the first rung on the cosmic ladder and it uses time and space in their measures. The base line in a parallax triangle always comes from the solar system, and therefore it also represents time, not just space. The lines drawn to stars as the other lines in the triangle are supposed to be representing the same thing. They do not/cannot since we do not know that time and space are the same all the way.

Invoking a time quotient into a calculating for which time is not considered is hilarious! Trigonometry has no time quotient! Literally measurements are taken at locations at opposite ends of earth's orbit, but feel free to show where the time quotient is factored into the calculation if you want to prove me incorrect - otherwise, this is another epic attempt to misdirect from the facts you know you can't defeat!

Then I continue with "we can observe supernova as they happen after detecting the preceding gamma ray burst that could only precede it because of the vast distances in space,", and you reply:

Oh? So if a burst comes from a billion light years away, for example, you think it took a billion years to get here! Since no distances are actually known due to the time issue mentioned, we have no idea how much time was actually involved! SO YOU LOOK AT LIGHT AND NEUTRINOS ARRIVING HERE a small time apart and try to add your silly religious impositions on that little fact! Truly absurd once we kow your game.

Yes, at least a billion years - that's how light works. If it didn't, your electronics wouldn't work. That you are ignorant on how we know distances is not anyone else's fault but your own. Deliberately so I suspect, protecting your religious position that demands everything we know for a fact, has to be wrong, when It just isn't.

Then finally, I continue "which in turn is another point of data that verifies the distance to said supernova, we can observe some supernova more than once due to gravitational lensing that again, couldn't happen if the observed supernova was less than tens of thousands of light years away, etc.", and you reply:

Baloney! Just because a star twinkles or flashes or whatever routinely or more than once, does not mean it is because of anything at all to do with your religion.

Still wanting Science to be a Religion so you can feel you're on the same footing.... Again, you never see rational people accusing Religious people and/or Religion of being "Just Rational" now, right? There's admission you know you have an untenable proposition. and Back to making no effort to address the content and evidence, just "IT'S NOT TRUE, LALALALALALALALALA!". You fail yet again.

No we don't. Your religion is wrong.

Evidence says otherwise - how does it not make you sit up and take notice? How do you not see the position you have counters all of the evidence your God supposedly left us in his creation? Is it you think your God is a Trickster God? that he Wants to fool rational thinking beings into this false proposition you're presenting? You need to take more notice of your God's Creation, I think - the difference between the Map and the Terrain is the fault of the Map. Same with your religious interpretation and the Universe that was supposedly created by your God.

No genetics of this nature would even matter if the different nature past genetics were not the same. You just believe for no reason they were.

Oh, Look! a Bald-faced Assertion! Address the Evidence and we can talk. Until then, your response smacks of desperation from someone who can plainly see they're wrong, but are too proud to admit it.

Just because your sandy/shaky ground religion is constantly being shown wrong and cooking up new fables does not mean that that the foolish fables are not taught to the innocents as truth! The professors and scientists and other officials of your religion are indeed ritualistically peddling beliefs.

Projection. You have failed to address any of the evidence and facts that demonstrate you to be wrong. You're also still trying to denigrate Science to a Religion because you Know you can't address any of it. Again, your God's Creation tells us that your religious interpretation is orders of magnitude out of whack, and now it's literally your hubris that's stopping you from accepting your position is fallible.

Look, beliefs are like belly buttons, everyone has one. I can see why you do not want to get in the mickey mouse line up of also ran beliefs. Too bad. It is what it is.

Who's beliefs are supported by a mountain of evidence backed with rational consideration? HINT: not yours.... and you know it too.

You thought rational had to do with a lack of any beliefs? That is irrational.

I didn't say that - I'm still laughing at you clearly acknowledging Religion to be the worst position for identifying true things from false things! you need Science to be as bad as Religion, because you Know it's more effective for getting to the truth of something, and you don't want that.

The facts aren't going away, dad.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Of course I read it and it is a good moral story BUT the Pastor could NOT tell us IF the man was a Christian or not. It's his opinion. I like God's view better.

Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Well, your God allows for this, so there's no reason why it couldn't be the case. Do you know he wasn't saved? As much as your God would be the ultimate arbiter, wouldn't you admit the Pastor might have a better idea of Jeffrey Dahmer's state of salvation than you do?

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Because we were given an intelligence like God's. Genesis 3:22 If you haven't noticed Humankind is evil in his every thought. Gen 6:5 We became this way when Humans married and produced children with the sons of God (prehistoric people). Genesis 6:4

Human destiny is to have dominion or rule over "every living thing that moveth". Genesis 1:28 Such a responsibility requires a thorough vetting. Only those who are "perfect" will receive such an honor. Jesus tells us how to get to Heaven.....

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

You aren't being coherent. You tell me that God is able to maintain a Perfect Heaven for eternity with your imperfect soul from here on Earth. You also tell me that God is all-powerful. and you also tell me (and the Bible declares) that God knew evil would be in this creation and that God lays claim to creating Evil in the first place. Why didn't God just give us this perfect soul here on Earth so we could all be worthy of Heaven without further unnecessary blood sacrifices? Is God not all-powerful after all?

 

[Aman777]

Well, your God allows for this, so there's no reason why it couldn't be the case. Do you know he wasn't saved?

No man knows. Only God does and He's got the book of Life.

As much as your God would be the ultimate arbiter, wouldn't you admit the Pastor might have a better idea of Jeffrey Dahmer's state of salvation than you do?

No man knows since it's a Spiritual (invisible) happening. It won't become fulfilled until we receive our perfect bodies at the rapture.

 

[Aman777]

You aren't being coherent. You tell me that God is able to maintain a Perfect Heaven for eternity with your imperfect soul from here on Earth. You also tell me that God is all-powerful. and you also tell me (and the Bible declares) that God knew evil would be in this creation and that God lays claim to creating Evil in the first place. Why didn't God just give us this perfect soul here on Earth so we could all be worthy of Heaven without further unnecessary blood sacrifices? Is God not all-powerful after all?

It's because we are His children who are being Judged to see if we can be perfect or not. Only those in Christ Spiritually are perfect in the Father's eyes. Have you been born again? Jesus died for your sins and arose from the dead, so you would believe. Amen?

 

[dad]

Deliberate and obtuse ignorance? Great defence mechanism...

Any reason you didn't address these, or were all of them included under "I DON'T CARE TO KNOW AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME LOOK, LALALALALALALALALA!!!"

You should not lame God for not revealing all things abut the future and past to man now. It is fine not to know. It is not fine to claim to know when you do not.

All of them have been and are currently being used to demonstrate both the same state past and that time exists in deep space the same as here.

None of it actually. None at all. Name any study on what time is like in far space?


If you took the time to learn the science, you'd understand why. Obviously I can't teach you Science if you won't learn it, so it's on you to take the time - it isn't hard.

For example, I listed how Rates of Mutation in the Theory of Evolution show with a degree of accuracy that all life forms are related and that there's been hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of detectable generations in all living things we can observe today.

Noah was not that many generations ago. He was likely contemporary with Abraham. Nothing in known of fossils of man in his day, or genetics or mutations etc etc. Looking at mutations now is a joke when trying to talk about the far past.

Ironically, the mutation rate across just the human race that's alive today demonstrates tens of thousands of generations - unless you have changed your stance on beneficial mutations being near 99% beneficial, because that mutation rate is impossible in a timeframe of barely a couple of hundred generations without killing Everyone! lol!

Explain how mutations in current present nature genes in any way relates to former nature genes???

​

Then, I gave you Genetics that show ERVs are accumulated at a rate that's impossible to see within tens of thousands of years without killing everything on earth, and in many cases is impossible to be contracted as a disease by the modern form of the genome it is currently found in.

In other words the way ervs work today in this nature, if extrapolated backwards tells us certain things. Too bad you cannot extrapolate this nature backwards. My condolences.

​

Pathetic. Still no evidence, or facts, or even reasoning as to why you think it's wrong, let alone that some other state existed in some invisible past, just that it Has to be wrong because you desperately need to be right to protect your obviously faulty interpretation of your holy text. Again, denial doesn't make any of the facts and evidence go away.

If you knew what state existed, we could talk.

Then I brought up how Geology shows geological structures and formations that are impossible to be formed within tens of thousands of years, they include ancient buried coral reefs, salt formations hundreds to thousands of feet thick, oil, coal, stratified bushfires, forest growth and fossilised animal activity, footprints & remains that could only take place if the area was slow forming, all discounting any rational consideration that it could happen quickly, layer upon layer, upon layer throughout the ages until today. You responded with:

The rapid mountain building and continental separation, and different deposition rates, plant growth rates, etc etc etc..all come together to mean that the layers were likely laid down fast.

​

Then, I pointed out how Relativity and cosmology show we can see celestial objects billions upon billions of light years away when the Universe was young, you responded with:

Not sure which part of 'you do not know any distance to any star in the universe, or any size of any star, because you need to know time exists at all points the same to be able to do so' that you cannot understand.

​

You keep calling it a belief system in a continuation of denial that points out your interpretation of your religion is demonstrably wrong. If time were different, we would notice it here, either we wouldn't see stars out there, or the Universe would be too hot for existence for all the stars that would have to be close enough for us to see them. Your failure to understand these simple concepts boggles my mind...

Utterly ridiculous. If time was not the same the universe would be too hot!!!?? Hilarious. 'We would notice it here'?? How? We are in time that is a certain way here. We cannot experience time any other way here.

Then I continue on, saying we can determine the characteristics and composition of stars, and you respond with:

We see some elements. What we don't see we do not know. But science claims most of the universe is invisible to them anyhow!

​

What is your reasoning for denying what we do know because we can only detect some things out there that we are familiar with? We can determine quite a lot about stellar objects we can see, you have completely failed to address this with anything meaningful at all. Demanding that we can only detect "some of the things" while not knowing about 95% of the gravitational effects we see, despite everything we can and have determined about stellar objects, doesn't discount what we do detect and discern. You haven't addressed that and simply attempted to misdirect to a non-sequitur about our observation of gravitational anomalies.

There are fallen angels in space...you see them? No. If there is any spiritual component to deep space we would not see that. We would invent some fishbowl explanations for what we see. That is what science is about!
You see some objects attracting...but how far away and how big they are you do not know. So what can you tell us about gravity there??

Then I continue; locate their distance from us via several independent lines of observation that all converge on the same measurement, and you respond:

Fishbowl convergence is not very deep.

​

Invoking a time quotient into a calculating for which time is not considered is hilarious!

Not as hilarious as taking a huge swath of space from our solar system and pretending no time in woven in or involved!!!

Trigonometry has no time quotient!

It does when a base line tens of millions of miles long that is from space and time here is used.

Literally measurements are taken at locations at opposite ends of earth's orbit, but feel free to show where the time quotient is factored into the calculation if you want to prove me incorrect - otherwise, this is another epic attempt to misdirect from the facts you know you can't defeat!

Easy. Time exists! You cannot avoid it here on earth. It cannot be waved away or ignored. There is not space here without time also!

Then I continue with "we can observe supernova as they happen after detecting the preceding gamma ray burst that could only precede it because of the vast distances in space,", and you reply:

NO distances are known by you at all to any star. None.

​

Yes, at least a billion years - that's how light works. If it didn't, your electronics wouldn't work. That you are ignorant on how we know distances is not anyone else's fault but your own. Deliberately so I suspect, protecting your religious position that demands everything we know for a fact, has to be wrong, when It just isn't.

Your electronics does not work where stars are, only in the fishbowl.

Then finally, I continue "which in turn is another point of data that verifies the distance to said supernova, we can observe some supernova more than once due to gravitational lensing that again, couldn't happen if the observed supernova was less than tens of thousands of light years away, etc.", and you reply:

We do not know what all causes lensing in deep space! Not only that, but since no distances or sizes are known, you have no idea what you are seeing.

​

Still wanting Science to be a Religion so you can feel you're on the same footing.... Again, you never see rational people accusing Religious people and/or Religion of being "Just Rational" now, right? There's admission you know you have an untenable proposition. and Back to making no effort to address the content and evidence, just "IT'S NOT TRUE, LALALALALALALALALA!". You fail yet again.

The mere fact science is religion does not put it on equal footing with the proven word of God in any way. No more than a dead flashlight battery is on the same footing as the sun.

Who's beliefs are supported by a mountain of evidence backed with rational consideration?

Mine. Science of origins is total Satanic lies and fables.

I didn't say that - I'm still laughing at you clearly acknowledging Religion to be the worst position for identifying true things from false things! you need Science to be as bad as Religion, because you Know it's more effective for getting to the truth of something, and you don't want that.

The problem with science is not just that is one of a thousand minor beliefs, but that it puffs itself up and claims to be fact and truth.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

No man knows. Only God does and He's got the book of Life.

No man knows since it's a Spiritual (invisible) happening. It won't become fulfilled until we receive our perfect bodies at the rapture.

So you don't know he's not then either. It could be possible, right?

It's because we are His children who are being Judged to see if we can be perfect or not. Only those in Christ Spiritually are perfect in the Father's eyes. Have you been born again? Jesus died for your sins and arose from the dead, so you would believe. Amen?

So, we CAN be perfect here on earth then? Why aren't all of us given this perfection at the start and instead are expected to believe in Jesus on bad to no evidence? How is perfection contingent on a faulty epistemology? Why is our perfection reliant on belief without substance of an unnecessary blood sacrifice?