The Issue of Universalism and Possible Ultimate Release from Hell

Michael Collum said:

In James it says we are to judge with mercy so we, in turn, can be judged with mercy.

Since "how it ends" is something God only knows, perhaps our perception of this matter is a test of our hearts?

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I think how it ends is quite explicit,....

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

Rev 21:27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

None of these sections of scripture here have double meanings,... it says what it says,.... and it is very explicit,..... if you are not one of this, ie born again, you have no right to be in heaven with Him. And if you are not there, then you are in the lake of fire.

GOD is telling us in very precise words how it is going to end.

Jeff Saunders said:

Jesus death was the only way that Yahweh has for us to get to the Father. Jesus said “ no one comes to the Father but through me” All people only get to the Father by faith in the finished work of Jesus either in this life or the next. That was why Jesus had to come and die.

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Read Romans 1:18-32 for a starting point.
Now, hypothetically, these people die and are sent to punishment in the fire that is never quenched and where the worm never dies, for torment, crying out and gnashing of teeth (all things described in scripture).

Please explain how they get from their state in the end of Romans 1 to Heaven? What part did Jesus death play in it?

It seems to me (please correct me if I am wrong) that they have ultimately paid for their own sins and been “purified” (purgatory-esque) to render them “fit” for Heaven.

ARBITER01 said:

I think how it ends is quite explicit,....

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

Rev 21:27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

None of these sections of scripture here have double meanings,... it says what it says,.... and it is very explicit,..... if you are not one of this, ie born again, you have no right to be in heaven with Him. And if you are not there, then you are in the lake of fire.

GOD is telling us in very precise words how it is going to end.

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What's missing however, is the narrative from the prophets that Revelation mimicks.

The saints are given a rod of iron to rule over the "nations" ... but what nations?

Everyone not written in the book of life is burning in the lake of fire .. sorry .. no nations to rule .. they're in too much pain to accept simple commands.

Also, taking the book of revelation too seriously results in a works based salvation model .. so going back to judging with mercy so you are judged with mercy .. just something to consider.

BNR32FAN said:

Universal reconciliation is not an Orthodox teaching

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Right, but they believe one can join the Orthodox Church after death. You've seen this asserted in the EO Forum.

Michael Collum said:

What's missing however, is the narrative from the prophets that Revelation mimicks.

The saints are given a rod of iron to rule over the "nations" ... but what nations?

Everyone not written in the book of life is burning in the lake of fire .. sorry .. no nations to rule .. they're in too much pain to accept simple commands.

Also, taking the book of revelation too seriously results in a works based salvation model .. so going back to judging with mercy so you are judged with mercy .. just something to consider.

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No, it's not anything to consider.

Truth is truth,..... I'm not sure how one would think taking the book of revelation serious would amount to a works based salvation?!?! That's a new one.

GOD is stating in this book how He is going to judge mercifully, by throwing out the bad apples and keeping the loyal ones that want to be with Him. To GOD, that is mercy. Some people may not accept that, but none of us is in any position to influence GOD's judgments. He's going to do what He wants/needs to do,... whether we like it or not.

ARBITER01 said:

I'm not sure how one would think taking the book of revelation serious would amount to a works based salvation?!?! That's a new one.

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Various verses stating people will be judged according to their works, the passage in Revelation 22 illustrates even the holy will be judged according to their works, the filthy according to their works. So definitely something to consider, if grace matters to you.

Re 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Andrewn said:

Right, but they believe one can join the Orthodox Church after death. You've seen this asserted in the EO Forum.

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Yes I did have a conversation about this but it was quite a bit different since the entire conversation was about other believers in Christ not unbelievers. Their position is that other believers in other denominations are not actually in the body of Christ or the Church of God which I strongly disagreed with as I’m sure you are aware of if you read that conversation. They claim that at the time of a believer’s death God will reveal to them their theological errors and they must recognize those errors and accept what God has revealed to them as being true. My position is that this would also be true for the Orthodox Church members as well if they had any theological errors. They disagree because they don’t believe they have any errors which is irrelevant because whether they believe they have errors or not they would still have to recognize any discrepancies in their theology just like everyone else if God reveals any to them. So this discussion had absolutely nothing to do with unbelievers.

atpollard said:

Read Romans 1:18-32 for a starting point.
Now, hypothetically, these people die and are sent to punishment in the fire that is never quenched and where the worm never dies, for torment, crying out and gnashing of teeth (all things described in scripture).

Please explain how they get from their state in the end of Romans 1 to Heaven? What part did Jesus death play in it?

It seems to me (please correct me if I am wrong) that they have ultimately paid for their own sins and been “purified” (purgatory-esque) to render them “fit” for Heaven.

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I never said that they go to heaven. Only those who followed Yahweh while in the mortal body get to be resident’s of heaven. Those who reject Yahweh/Jesus are thrown into the lake of fire, but that fire is a refinery, a theme all through the scripture, fire was used as a cleansing agent add sulfur to help get rid of the dross (sin) . Once they have been refined and accept Jesus, I believe these are those who are outside the new Jerusalem who can’t come in , they spend the ages on the new earth. Then and only then can God be all in all. If they stay in the lake of fire for eternity then sin is eternal and Jesus would not have conquered sin .

Michael Collum said:

Various verses stating people will be judged according to their works, the passage in Revelation 22 illustrates even the holy will be judged according to their works, the filthy according to their works. So definitely something to consider, if grace matters to you.

Re 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

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Well, to be honest, I'm not following your ideas over this. We will just have to agree to disagree on that.

ARBITER01 said:

Well, to be honest, I'm not following your ideas over this. We will just have to agree to disagree on that.

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Thanks. God bless.

BNR32FAN said:

Yes I did have a conversation about this but it was quite a bit different since the entire conversation was about other believers in Christ not unbelievers.

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Here is the reference for that conversation:


The conversation was not limited to the post-mortem salvation of other believers in Christ:

In message #41, "salvation is impossible outside of the Church, but that door only eternally closes on judgment day."

In message #59, "The Lord says those who did good will be saved and those who were evil will not in John 5:22-30."

Moreover, there are the quotations in message #291 of the following thread:


The Orthodox Catechism is quoted as saying, "Before this event [the common resurrection and Last Judgment], however, there exists the possibility for the person in Hell to gain release; after the Last Judgment this possibility no longer remains."

Jeff Saunders said:

Those who reject Yahweh/Jesus are thrown into the lake of fire, but that fire is a refinery, a theme all through the scripture, fire was used as a cleansing agent add sulfur to help get rid of the dross (sin) . Once they have been refined and accept Jesus, I believe these are those who are outside the new Jerusalem who can’t come in , they spend the ages on the new earth. Then and only then can God be all in all.

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Sort of like the Spanish Inquisition then, right? Torture until you admit Jesus is Lord. I am unsure how that removes sin, but I can certainly see it effective at getting knees to bow and tongues to confess.

I am uncertain that makes God "better" than loving His children and punishing His enemies, but I am unwilling to stand in judgement of the "goodness" of God by debating THAT topic. [I am at a minimum, unqualified.]

BNR32FAN said:

I suppose your basing this on 1 Corinthians 3:11-15? If so you need to understand that this only applies to those who are “building on the foundation of Christ”. There are no verses that describe hell as a place of refinement only destruction and perish.

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I don't recall that verse being used that way. The verses to support what Jeff Saunders was saying are the ones that talk about the refining fire. There's even a song called Refiner's Fire that's sung in many churches.

atpollard said:

Sort of like the Spanish Inquisition then, right? Torture until you admit Jesus is Lord. I am unsure how that removes sin, but I can certainly see it effective at getting knees to bow and tongues to confess.

I am uncertain that makes God "better" than loving His children and punishing His enemies, but I am unwilling to stand in judgement of the "goodness" of God by debating THAT topic. [I am at a minimum, unqualified.]

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If it’s not better to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you why did Yahweh tell us to be that? What brings greater glory to Yahweh, to love your enemies and win them to your side by love or for him to torture them for eternity? Why would Yahweh ask us to do something that he himself is not willing to do? And as far as this being like the Spanish Inquisition, you don’t understand scripture. The scripture that says” every knee will bow and every tongue confess “ if you look at the Greek the wording is a joyfully do it not out of fear but out of love. So it’s not even close to the same.

Jeff Saunders said:

If it’s not better to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you why did Yahweh tell us to be that? What brings greater glory to Yahweh, to love your enemies and win them to your side by love or for him to torture them for eternity? Why would Yahweh ask us to do something that he himself is not willing to do? And as far as this being like the Spanish Inquisition, you don’t understand scripture. The scripture that says” every knee will bow and every tongue confess “ if you look at the Greek the wording is a joyfully do it not out of fear but out of love. So it’s not even close to the same.

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So ultimately, you must either have a HECK of a mental compartmentalization going on, or you do not believe God's warnings about the nature of the "age long" punishment. (I am assuming that you do not have SO warped a definition of "Love" that "burning" and "gnashing of teeth" is how YOU love YOUR enemies.)

Since this brings us back to EXACTLY where I entered this discussion (How does torment make people LOVE God) ... it is probably time to admit that no forward progress has been made or is likely to be made. You and I should "cut our losses" and waste no more time going in circles.

God bless.
Better luck communicating together on another topic.

atpollard said:

So ultimately, you must either have a HECK of a mental compartmentalization going on, or you do not believe God's warnings about the nature of the "age long" punishment. (I am assuming that you do not have SO warped a definition of "Love" that "burning" and "gnashing of teeth" is how YOU love YOUR enemies.)

Since this brings us back to EXACTLY where I entered this discussion (How does torment make people LOVE God) ... it is probably time to admit that no forward progress has been made or is likely to be made. You and I should "cut our losses" and waste no more time going in circles.

God bless.
Better luck communicating together on another topic.

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If you want to understand what I was talking about read post 183 of The wrath of God . I have tried to explain what I am talking about if you still don’t get it I don’t know how to make it any plainer.

atpollard said:

Sort of like the Spanish Inquisition then, right? Torture until you admit Jesus is Lord. I am unsure how that removes sin, but I can certainly see it effective at getting knees to bow and tongues to confess.

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No, not torture. Look at the definition of "acknowledge".

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

atpollard said:

I am uncertain that makes God "better" than loving His children and punishing His enemies, but I am unwilling to stand in judgement of the "goodness" of God by debating THAT topic. [I am at a minimum, unqualified.]

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Jesus taught us that loving our enemies is godly behavior.
Some make God out to be worse than a pagan or a tax collector. (traitor)

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

cc: @Jeff Saunders

Saint Steven said:

No, not torture.

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Are these verses in your Bible?

Revelation 21:8​

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Matthew 25:46​

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Psalms 9:17​

17 The wicked go down to the realm of the dead, all the nations that forget God.

2 Thessalonians 1:9​

9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Matthew 13:50​

50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Acts 2:27​

27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.

Mark 9:43​

43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Jude 1:7​

7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Proverbs 15:24​

24 The path of life leads upward for the prudent to keep them from going down to the realm of the dead.

Proverbs 23:14​

14 Punish them with the rod and save them from death.

Matthew 13:42​

42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41​

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 19:20​

20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Proverbs 15:11​

11 Death and Destruction lie open before the LORD— how much more do human hearts!

Matthew 16:19​

19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bebound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will beloosed in heaven.”

2 Peter 2:4​

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Revelation 20:13-14​

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Matthew 10:28​

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ezekiel 18:20​

20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

… this “everybody loves God, no punishment, no torment” narrative that I keep hearing from the UA crowd leaves me wondering if your bibles might have all references to verses like those quoted above redacted.

Saint Steven said:

Look at the definition of "acknowledge".

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

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From an earlier post:

Read Romans 1:18-32 for a starting point.
Now, hypothetically, these people die and are sent to punishment in the fire that is never quenched and where the worm never dies, for torment, crying out and gnashing of teeth (all things described in scripture). Please explain how they get from their state in the end of Romans 1 to Heaven? What part did Jesus death play in it? It seems to me (please correct me if I am wrong) that they have ultimately paid for their own sins and been “purified” (purgatory-esque) to render them “fit” for Heaven.

Jeff Saunders
Steve, if you are reading my posts, do you understand what I am saying? Not whether you agree, I know I have different views on some things, but can you follow my arguments?

Yes, I think I do, for the most part. Not a problem that our positions don't align perfectly. I want to hear your views.

cc: @Jeff Saunders