The IRS Thing...

[ebedmelech]

This is being compared to Watergate...and being stated to be worse than Watergate.

Heads are going to roll on this!!! Drop the politics!!! This is about Bill Of Rights violations!!!

If you don't know about it, this will get you started:

Everything you need to know about the IRS scandal

Ex-IRS Chief Steve Miller: 'I Did Not Mislead Congress or the American People' | Video - ABC News

John Boehner Discusses IRS Scandal | Video - ABC News

President Obama Announces IRS Chief's Resignation | Video - ABC News

Today, Mrs Lois Lerner has invoked her 5th ammendment rights:

Lois Lerner invokes Fifth Amendment in House hearing on IRS targeting - The Washington Post

This is about to get ugly...real fast!!!

 

[Yarddog]

This is being compared to Watergate...and being stated to be worse than Watergate.

Heads are going to roll on this!!! Drop the politics!!! This is about Bill Of Rights violations!!!



This is about to get ugly...real fast!!!

Yeah, that is really funny and shows how badly the Republicans are trying to find something to make Obama look bad.

This is wrong but it is no scandal. Obama has nothing to do with it and Watergate and he Iran Contra affair are still the two worst scandals that have rocked the White House. Clinton's sexcapade was the worst to hit the Democrats.

It was incredibly wrong for the people in the IRS to target Conservative Super Pacs but each and every one passed and were granted the exemption.

The Republicans are really making themselves look bad in these hearings.

 

[ebedmelech]

Yeah, that is really funny and shows how badly the Republicans are trying to find something to make Obama look bad.

This is wrong but it is no scandal. Obama has nothing to do with it and Watergate and he Iran Contra affair are still the two worst scandals that have rocked the White House. Clinton's sexcapade was the worst to hit the Democrats.

It was incredibly wrong for the people in the IRS to target Conservative Super Pacs but each and every one passed and were granted the exemption.

The Republicans are really making themselves look bad in these hearings.

Not a scandal??? Come on...this is the government targeting groups and people.

Doesn't matter really if it reaches the White House...it gets uglier if it does though.

The fundamental problem here is we have the government selectively singling individuals/groups out.

*This generated somewhere, and it was a collective effort...that is proven.

*The DOJ deems it serious enough to investigate.

*Now...the first IRS official invokes the 5th (rightfully so though).

I'm just gonna wait and watch...no whistle blowing has happened yet

 

[Yarddog]

Not a scandal??? Come on...this is the government targeting groups and people.

We don't know if it is a scandal or not yet. As of now, it is only a small section of the IRS which acted in a partisan, but and I repeat BUT, even though the IRS looked at conservative super pacs harder than liberal ones, not a single conservative super pac was denied the tax exempt status.

Your OP also compares this to Watergate but there is nothing which points to anything other than IRS officials which had knowledge of this while Watergate started with President Nixon.

Doesn't matter really if it reaches the White House...it gets uglier if it does though.

If you want to use Watergate to compare it to then it has to go all the way to the President.

The fundamental problem here is we have the government selectively singling individuals/groups out.

No, the Government did not. People in the IRS, just one of hundreds of government agencies, is involved. That makes this a pretty weak scandal.

*This generated somewhere, and it was a collective effort...that is proven.

It is only shown to be a collective effort within the IRS.

*The DOJ deems it serious enough to investigate.

And they should. Laws have been broken and the guilty parties need to be prosecuted.

*Now...the first IRS official invokes the 5th (rightfully so though).

Yes. That was the right thing for her to do.

I'm just gonna wait and watch...no whistle blowing has happened yet

Well, hopefully this will be properly investigated and guilty parties will pay for their crime, unlike all of the banking crooks which got giant bonuses for cheating the American people.

Now that was a scandal.

 

[ebedmelech]

After listening to the hearings on CSPAN, I'm going to conclude there's something there.

I never said this is Watergate, I said it's *being compared* to Watergate.

A thing like this doesn't happen with a group of IRS employees...and I'm certainly not listening to the news on this...I'm listening to the hearings.

I'm going to watch and wait.

 

[Yarddog]

After listening to the hearings on CSPAN, I'm going to conclude there's something there.

Sure there is something. That has been admitted to. What also appears to be clear is that this does not extend further than IRS officials.

I never said this is Watergate, I said it's *being compared* to Watergate.

And I said "your OP". That is a correct statement.

A thing like this doesn't happen with a group of IRS employees...and I'm certainly not listening to the news on this...I'm listening to the hearings.

Oh, and why did you post sites from the Washington Post and ABC News. You didn't check out what your sites were saying? Your OP certainly gave the appearance that you had already decided this issue with little facts to do so.

I'm going to watch and wait.

That is the best thing to do. The ranting and ravings of liberal and conservative Congressmen is not where one should get facts about this issue. If heads roll, hopefully, they will belong to only the guilty people.

Sadly, too many times the buck is passed to the lower level employees and those who instilled the regulations get off with a slap on the hand or nothing at all.

 

[Ecclectic79]

We're a nation under judgment, and the irreconcilability of the conversation above just goes to show how great a tool of the devil partisan politics are. Thanks to the current entrenched Republican/Democrat warfare a politician can do most things short of robbing a 7/11 or dropping a dead hooker off in a BFI bin and make it of no effect by blaming the other side of running a political witch-hunt.

The saying that there are no political solutions for spiritual problems has never been clearer.

 

[ebedmelech]

Oh, and why did you post sites from the Washington Post and ABC News. You didn't check out what your sites were saying? Your OP certainly gave the appearance that you had already decided this issue with little facts to do so.

Really? Is that what I said or what you infer?

*Does anything say anyone's mind is made up?

*Everything link I posted speaks to an investigation, concludes nothing...but points to specific facts that show this was a conspiracy. The question is where did it start.

*The only thing my mind is made up about is that this was a conspiracy against conservative groups/people.

Let me make it clear to you in plain statements so I'm clear about what I think.

*This was a conspiracy.

*I don't know if it reached the White House.

*My primary concern here is this is government violating the Bill of Rights. (The IRS is the government)

If you want to argue...I'm not the one. I'm simply disturbed about this because it again shows "We the People" need to be on guard about our rights.

 

[miamited]

Hi all,

Well, I'd like to think that the department that has the authority to review and approve tax exempt status to any party or organization also has the right to, now and then, consider looking at a group more closely, if there has been some evidence that there is a growing amount of fraud within a specific group.

Just like with medicare fraud there are people who receive government funds that make up bogus claims through various means. When it comes to the attention of someone who has the authority to design the policy of checking, then that person does have some fiduciary responsibility to say something like, "Hey, let's be very careful and double check and do a little deeper research if we find claims coming in that meet this criteria of..."

Now, I don't pretend to know what the catalyst was that brought about this additional scrutiny that the IRS chiefs decided warranted extra checking, but I'm not one to just start pointing fingers because someone believes they are doing their job and working to make sure that certain applications for tax exempt status are, in fact, valid.

From what I read of the basic issue, that's really what it seems to be about. Someone with the authority to make policy decisions regarding the checking of tax exempt status applications felt that there might be a need to more carefully check those that come in with this or that box checked on the application. The IRS has always used certain criteria that I find much similar in deciding many of their audit requests.

A tax form comes in and the net income seems abnormally low compared to the gross, or there are itemized deductions of XX number of dollars and yet the gross income is only X dollars. It begs the question, "Well, how does this person live with such great expenses and only a meager income?" So the natural inclination of those whose job it is to check such things says, "Well, let's call that guy in here and audit his accounts and just make sure everything is at is claimed to be." There are many places on a tax return that blanks are filled in based solely on the tax payers say so and no verifiable evidence comes in from some other source to substantiate the amount. This is why we have audits. And I believe that the better question should be, "Well, why did you feel it necessary to put these tax exempt applications under greater scrutiny?" If the answer is a reasonable answer backed up by some fact finding, then what's the problem. Isn't that really what we all want is a government that is responsible in handing out it's money, checking such applications as this?

I wish that the departments that oversee welfare payments and medicare and medicaid payments and social security would be more thorough, but of course, if they did try to be so, someone would start hollering, "Oh, I've been singled out by an unrighteous government. It's tyranny I tell you and tomorrow they'll herd us all into pens and slaughter us. You just watch and see. They're going to be coming after you too!"

Yea, right.

God bless you all.
In Christ, Ted

 

[BryanW92]

I wish that the departments that oversee welfare payments and medicare and medicaid payments and social security would be more thorough, but of course, if they did try to be so, someone would start hollering, "Oh, I've been singled out by an unrighteous government. It's tyranny I tell you and tomorrow they'll herd us all into pens and slaughter us. You just watch and see. They're going to be coming after you too!"

If the IRS had singled out minority groups during an election year with an incumbent Republican administration, what would your reaction be? Would you have accepted Jay Carney's lame and smarmy excuses if he was the mouthpiece for President Romney or Palin? Would you be telling them to stop hollering "Oh, I've been singled out by a racist government. It's the plantation all over again and tomorrow they'll be lynching us. You just watch and see. They're going to be coming after you too!"

 

[Street Knight]

This is a very concerning situation and IMO worse than Watergate. During Watergate, some rogue politicians hired some thugs to commit a crime. That was WRONG.
In this situation, an agency (or members of that agency) used the force of their official position to target certain groups of American Citizens, who had not committed a crime and had not done anything except ask for a status in accordance with the law. The groups that were targeted all had political opinions that were opposed to the current Administration. Meanwhile, groups that had political opinions that supported the current Administration had their applications approved in record time (2-3 months). Some of these targeted groups have been held up for 17-18 months having to answer form after form. Some of these people have also reported that after they filed these applications, they and their businesses have suddenly been subjected to repeated inspections and visits from FBI, OSHA, ATFE, and other regulators and investigative agencies. This is Our Government targeting our citizens. However high up this goes it is troubling. If this was really just a few "rogue agents" acting together; why did their supervisors not know what these agents were doing and the managers, etc.

 

[ebedmelech]

This is a very concerning situation and IMO worse than Watergate. During Watergate, some rogue politicians hired some thugs to commit a crime. That was WRONG.
In this situation, an agency (or members of that agency) used the force of their official position to target certain groups of American Citizens, who had not committed a crime and had not done anything except ask for a status in accordance with the law. The groups that were targeted all had political opinions that were opposed to the current Administration. Meanwhile, groups that had political opinions that supported the current Administration had their applications approved in record time (2-3 months). Some of these targeted groups have been held up for 17-18 months having to answer form after form. Some of these people have also reported that after they filed these applications, they and their businesses have suddenly been subjected to repeated inspections and visits from FBI, OSHA, ATFE, and other regulators and investigative agencies. This is Our Government targeting our citizens. However high up this goes it is troubling. If this was really just a few "rogue agents" acting together; why did their supervisors not know what these agents were doing and the managers, etc.

Be fair though. Watergate found it's way to the White House after months of investigation.

They've got a ways to go before we know what went on. My guess is with all that needs to be known about this, the IG investigation, the subpoenas, and the testimony...President Obama may not even be in office by the time this thing is figured out.

I needs to get figured out though.

 

[Ecclectic79]

This is a very concerning situation and IMO worse than Watergate. During Watergate, some rogue politicians hired some thugs to commit a crime. That was WRONG.
In this situation, an agency (or members of that agency) used the force of their official position to target certain groups of American Citizens, who had not committed a crime and had not done anything except ask for a status in accordance with the law. The groups that were targeted all had political opinions that were opposed to the current Administration. Meanwhile, groups that had political opinions that supported the current Administration had their applications approved in record time (2-3 months). Some of these targeted groups have been held up for 17-18 months having to answer form after form. Some of these people have also reported that after they filed these applications, they and their businesses have suddenly been subjected to repeated inspections and visits from FBI, OSHA, ATFE, and other regulators and investigative agencies. This is Our Government targeting our citizens. However high up this goes it is troubling. If this was really just a few "rogue agents" acting together; why did their supervisors not know what these agents were doing and the managers, etc.

That tells us just how different our culture is now than it was then. Terrifying commentary isn't it?

 

[Street Knight]

Agree. The level of the politicians involved is what took Watergate from a stupid crime to a watershed event in American History.
If the investigation discloses that there were higher level people involved and/or that this was a directed action, it will be worse.
It is still abuse of power.

 

[miamited]

If the IRS had singled out minority groups during an election year with an incumbent Republican administration, what would your reaction be? Would you have accepted Jay Carney's lame and smarmy excuses if he was the mouthpiece for President Romney or Palin? Would you be telling them to stop hollering "Oh, I've been singled out by a racist government. It's the plantation all over again and tomorrow they'll be lynching us. You just watch and see. They're going to be coming after you too!"

Hi Bryan,

Well, we can 'if' our way into any position we care to believe. What 'if' God hadn't created the universe? Where would we be?

All I'm attempting to do is look at the facts and make a reasonable determination of what went on and wonder if it's really anything that people should be all worked up about.

Listen, the people that are in government are just people. They're just like you and me and the billions of others that inhabit our planet. They make decisions and follow paths that are generally for the good. That, of course, excludes sociopaths and those bent on criminal or hurtful behavior to others. As I read the article that was posted to open this thread it begins by explaining that the IRS department that oversees and approves tax exempt status had singled out a group of people to be worthy of more diligent looking into. It further explains that this group that was singled out were those who, for one reason or another, were considered conservative groups.

So, for me, the first question that comes to my mind to ask is, "Why, were these groups chosen." Now, many want to make unsubstantiated claims that it's because the government is evil and wicked and has it out for the conservative groups. Quite frankly, I just don't buy that.

Friend, we and government agencies participate in profiling all the time. When we go through airport security the agents there are looking for certain profiles that have been proven to be more inclined to crime or violence. They look over the travel itineraries and the behavior of all the people traveling and try to make a best assessment of who warrants further scrutiny. For the honest guy that gets caught up in such a deeper search it's a real hassle, but the intentions of the agents are not to do anyone harm or ill will, but to check out the people that meet these profiles and put them under closer scrutiny because they believe that there is a greater chance that those who fit these profiles are more likely to be drug smugglers or terrorists or whatever.

I believe that this is exactly what has happened here. Someone who makes a lot of money working for us, who we pay to keep an eye on things under their purview, has made a determination to pay extra special attention to the applications for tax exempt status that meet this certain profile. We all do it! We make assessments and determinations about who are good people and who aren't or who deserves something and who doesn't based on a profile that we have established by which our minds make judgments and assessments and act accordingly.

I find that a lot of people, and it seems to be finding its way into the 'Christian' community, are just looking for everything that happens in life to be a conspiracy of some sort or another. Right now there's a certain mindset of people who are solidly convinced that the perpetrators of the Boston massacre were government puppets set upon us by our own government. Right now there's a certain mindset of people, and these sets and subsets have a lot of overlapping, that think the moon landings and the area 51 space aliens are all government conspiracies. There are just way too many people for which everything that happens is some sort of conspiracy.

I choose to believe that the government of the United States acts with reasonable care and concern for the people which it governs. That most of them, yes I know there are some crooked government workers but most of them are crooked for their own gain and not for some global ideology of conspiracy, are sincerely doing what they believe to be the best job they should be doing, and were set in place to do, to the best of their abilities.

I believe that astronauts have walked on the moon. I don't believe there are any space aliens in area 51 or anywhere else in the universe for that matter. I believe that President Obama is a reasonably intelligent man who won the election fair and square and gets four years of governing our nation and that neither he nor other government workers are out to 'get' anybody with malice or other wicked intention.

Was the decision made here to 'single' out conservative groups for extra scrutiny in applying for tax exempt status a good and fair decision? I don't know unless I can know why the decision was made. If the person in charge of such orders had evidence given to him or found by him that there seemed to be a lot of conservative tax exempt status applications that were bogus, then yes, I'd say he made the right decision.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Lovely Lane]

Ok, so why does these political groups get a tax-exemption in the first place?
I think it is because the so-called Campaign Reform law (McCain/Feingold) created this mess.
And once created, as usual, Congress made no rules or guidelines of what exactly is a tax-exempt political organization, which could be any one who is trying to get some one elected.

This is what citizens get when pleas for Campaign Reform are handled by and created by the politicians who want the rules favor them when going after the big dollars. Non reportable, Tax free money used to support a candidate or to attack one. Like funding a war and not saying where the money is coming from.

And when folks in a IRS section put some Tea Party/Conservative organizations under scrutiny all of a sudden we have an IRSgate.

Hey didn't the conservatives go after the ACORN organization which was a Non-Government Organization,NGO, that received tax dollars for it's services. ACORN was cleared of charges, but it has closed shop. Maybe someone is getting some payback, probably not, but the making of a good conspiracy story.

 

[Eric Hibbert]

If the IRS had singled out minority groups during an election year with an incumbent Republican administration, what would your reaction be? Would you have accepted Jay Carney's lame and smarmy excuses if he was the mouthpiece for President Romney or Palin? Would you be telling them to stop hollering "Oh, I've been singled out by a racist government. It's the plantation all over again and tomorrow they'll be lynching us. You just watch and see. They're going to be coming after you too!"

The Obamunists will defend Obama, no matter what he does.

The problem is that I don't think they've stopped to consider the fact that the precedents set by Obama may be used against them by the next president.

 

[Prayer Circle]

IRS Commissioner: "It Is Absolutely Not" Illegal For IRS To Target Conservatives - YouTube

 

[Zanting]

There are other things going in the IRS that remain sketchy (i.e. taxing wages).

It's all connected.

Pick one of many intergovernmental lies and propaganda schemes.

They all go back to the same source...money= power + control. Find out who has all the money and you know who controls the ways of the world.

God teaches us to live in the world, but not the ways of world.

 

[Albion]

After listening to the hearings on CSPAN, I'm going to conclude there's something there.

I never said this is Watergate, I said it's *being compared* to Watergate.

A thing like this doesn't happen with a group of IRS employees...and I'm certainly not listening to the news on this...I'm listening to the hearings.

I'm going to watch and wait.

Watergate was not nearly as important or scandalous as this. Naturally, Democrats will alibi anything involving BO, and that is one difference. The Republicans were not willing to tolerate wrongdoing in Watergate, but Democrats will defend Obama come what may. Nevertheless, it remains true that Watergate was small potatoes compared to the IRS working hand in glove with the White House on this thing.