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The IRS Thing...

L

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Watergate was not nearly as important or scandalous as this. Naturally, Democrats will alibi anything involving BO, and that is one difference. The Republicans were not willing to tolerate wrongdoing in Watergate, but Democrats will defend Obama come what may. Nevertheless, it remains true that Watergate was small potatoes compared to the IRS working hand in glove with the White House on this thing.

What!
The Republicans were not willing to tolerate wrongdoing in Watergate,
The link I provide shows that Republicans stood by their man...defend Nixon as best as they could. Just look at the votes.
Analysis of House Judiciary Committee Impeachment Votes
Watergate Articles Of Impeachment

Yes, Watergate was much more serious than this little IRs thing.
Republican President Nixon ordered the plumbers to break-in to the Watergate office complex to obtain secret political plans from the Democratic Party.

Odd, that the GOP types would want us to overlook a criminal activity that made a sitting president resign and leave town in disgrace.

George "W" Bush hired the IRS guy who was in charge when this 'tax exempt' office started doing this, "W" wasn't a 'tea party' type of guy, right?
 
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BryanW92

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Yes, Watergate was much more serious than this little IRs thing.
Republican President Nixon ordered the plumbers to break-in to the Watergate office complex to obtain secret political plans from the Democratic Party.

Odd, that the GOP types would want us to overlook a criminal activity that made a sitting president resign and leave town in disgrace.

George "W" Bush hired the IRS guy who was in charge when this 'tax exempt' office started doing this, "W" wasn't a 'tea party' type of guy, right?

Stealing the playbook from political opponents is worse than using the power of the IRS to unfairly target citizen groups who support your political opponent? Nixon resigned from office over Watergate because people had morals and honor back then. Anything goes today, especially for Democrats.

The fact that Bush hired the IRS guy is proof of the depth of the cancer. This guy is a career bureaucrat and career bureaucrats aren't political. They follow whatever hack is in power because that's the hack that signs their paychecks. So, he was doing what he was supposed to do because bureaucrats aren't that inventive. They survive by adapting to the administration and giving it what it wants. This is true throughout history where the people behind the curtain are always the most dangerous people in the king's court. And when the king is deposed, they are the first ones to kiss the new king's ring and swear their undying loyalty.

The fact that Obama can drop a few hints in campaign speeches and the bureaucracy springs into action to fight for him is how tyranny begins.
 
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L

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Stealing the playbook from political opponents is worse than using the power of the IRS to unfairly target citizen groups who support your political opponent? Nixon resigned from office over Watergate because people had morals and honor back then. Anything goes today, especially for Democrats.
lol, yeah right, like having morals and honor got Nixon in trouble.

The fact that Bush hired the IRS guy is proof of the depth of the cancer. This guy is a career bureaucrat and career bureaucrats aren't political. They follow whatever hack is in power because that's the hack that signs their paychecks. So, he was doing what he was supposed to do because bureaucrats aren't that inventive. They survive by adapting to the administration and giving it what it wants. This is true throughout history where the people behind the curtain are always the most dangerous people in the king's court. And when the king is deposed, they are the first ones to kiss the new king's ring and swear their undying loyalty.

The fact that Obama can drop a few hints in campaign speeches and the bureaucracy springs into action to fight for him is how tyranny begins.
I see how you feel, do you have any proof that Obama is involved.

The GOP types have three made-up scandals going right now. All trying to tag the president, and they are so frustrated that nothing is sticking while all along they do nothing to help make for a better economy, a better Republic. Go! Go! GOP! Let's see how well GOP does in 2014 elections. For that is all they are doing, posturing for votes.Today's GOP are the worst members of any political party that I can remember. They have voted against ObamaCare over 30 times already, just posturing for votes, noting constructive coming from the GOP, no wonder they lose national elections, especially running a cult member.
 
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Psalm 91

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Stealing the playbook from political opponents is worse than using the power of the IRS to unfairly target citizen groups who support your political opponent? Nixon resigned from office over Watergate because people had morals and honor back then. Anything goes today, especially for Democrats.

The fact that Bush hired the IRS guy is proof of the depth of the cancer. This guy is a career bureaucrat and career bureaucrats aren't political. They follow whatever hack is in power because that's the hack that signs their paychecks. So, he was doing what he was supposed to do because bureaucrats aren't that inventive. They survive by adapting to the administration and giving it what it wants. This is true throughout history where the people behind the curtain are always the most dangerous people in the king's court. And when the king is deposed, they are the first ones to kiss the new king's ring and swear their undying loyalty.

The fact that Obama can drop a few hints in campaign speeches and the bureaucracy springs into action to fight for him is how tyranny begins.


:amen:
 
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Psalm 91

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lol, yeah right, like having morals and honor got Nixon in trouble.

I see how you feel, do you have any proof that Obama is involved.

The GOP types have three made-up scandals going right now. All trying to tag the president, and they are so frustrated that nothing is sticking while all along they do nothing to help make for a better economy, a better Republic. Go! Go! GOP! Let's see how well GOP does in 2014 elections. For that is all they are doing, posturing for votes.Today's GOP are the worst members of any political party that I can remember. They have voted against ObamaCare over 30 times already, just posturing for votes, noting constructive coming from the GOP, no wonder they lose national elections, especially running a cult member.


Um, I don't really agree that Republican politicians who voted against ObamaCare over 30 times are just posturing for votes. I would vote against Obamacare if I could. Common sense would tell anyone that we can't afford it. Experts are saying that it will fall apart after about 2yrs. When people's family members are left to die because their treatment is too expensive, people who thought they would get adequate coverage and have found out differently are going to be screaming at the top of their lungs. But that is a topic for another day.

Does it mean nothing that the man you all and Ed Rendell think is a man of high integrity, killed the Born Alive Infant Protection Act in Illinois and then lied about the reason in a debate with John McCain? Does it mean nothing that this person of high integrity made fun of Scripture verses in a speech? We are Christians, I assume, and I think the things of God should come first with us. Can you tell me who ordered the stand down order during the Benghazi attacks while our ambassador to Libya and others were tortured and murdered? We know that Dick Cheney gave the stand down order during the 9/11 attacks. I don't believe we'll ever know the truth about Benghazi. He promised to have a transparent administration and it has been anything but.

All I want to say is that many people are blind to what this man of high integrity has been doing to their freedom. I guess they won't wake up until they too, are ordered out of their homes with their hands above their heads like the people in Boston. Evangelical Christians are on the DHS terrorist list but to this day, the man of high integrity has refused to call the military psychiatrist who killed his own fellow troops in Texas what he is: a terrorist.

We're supposed to be followers of Christ. The values which Christ taught are being ignored when it comes to our leaders. I don't know about others here but I am a follower of Christ first and His Word orders my steps and directs my path.

As far as Watergate is concerned, Nixon had as well as Obama has, a flawed character. The difference is that Nixon was extremely insecure and Obama is slick. Nixon was paranoid and Obama is a narcissist. Obama thinks that everything is about him and has an insatiable desire to control, simply because he thinks he's so wonderful. He has a very thin skin and is hurt by those who don't think he is wonderful and seeks revenge on them using his appointees and agencies like the IRS. His means of overtaking the country for socialism/communism is by following the Rules for Radicals. He finds his appointees mostly from under rocks in Chicago and they make the changes he desires and take the hit for the fallout. And Obama comes out "clean" because people want to believe that he's a man of high integrity.
 
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Psalm 91

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Hi Bryan,

Well, we can 'if' our way into any position we care to believe. What 'if' God hadn't created the universe? Where would we be?

All I'm attempting to do is look at the facts and make a reasonable determination of what went on and wonder if it's really anything that people should be all worked up about.

Listen, the people that are in government are just people. They're just like you and me and the billions of others that inhabit our planet. They make decisions and follow paths that are generally for the good. That, of course, excludes sociopaths and those bent on criminal or hurtful behavior to others. As I read the article that was posted to open this thread it begins by explaining that the IRS department that oversees and approves tax exempt status had singled out a group of people to be worthy of more diligent looking into. It further explains that this group that was singled out were those who, for one reason or another, were considered conservative groups.

So, for me, the first question that comes to my mind to ask is, "Why, were these groups chosen." Now, many want to make unsubstantiated claims that it's because the government is evil and wicked and has it out for the conservative groups. Quite frankly, I just don't buy that.

Friend, we and government agencies participate in profiling all the time. When we go through airport security the agents there are looking for certain profiles that have been proven to be more inclined to crime or violence. They look over the travel itineraries and the behavior of all the people traveling and try to make a best assessment of who warrants further scrutiny. For the honest guy that gets caught up in such a deeper search it's a real hassle, but the intentions of the agents are not to do anyone harm or ill will, but to check out the people that meet these profiles and put them under closer scrutiny because they believe that there is a greater chance that those who fit these profiles are more likely to be drug smugglers or terrorists or whatever.

I believe that this is exactly what has happened here. Someone who makes a lot of money working for us, who we pay to keep an eye on things under their purview, has made a determination to pay extra special attention to the applications for tax exempt status that meet this certain profile. We all do it! We make assessments and determinations about who are good people and who aren't or who deserves something and who doesn't based on a profile that we have established by which our minds make judgments and assessments and act accordingly.

I find that a lot of people, and it seems to be finding its way into the 'Christian' community, are just looking for everything that happens in life to be a conspiracy of some sort or another. Right now there's a certain mindset of people who are solidly convinced that the perpetrators of the Boston massacre were government puppets set upon us by our own government. Right now there's a certain mindset of people, and these sets and subsets have a lot of overlapping, that think the moon landings and the area 51 space aliens are all government conspiracies. There are just way too many people for which everything that happens is some sort of conspiracy.

I choose to believe that the government of the United States acts with reasonable care and concern for the people which it governs. That most of them, yes I know there are some crooked government workers but most of them are crooked for their own gain and not for some global ideology of conspiracy, are sincerely doing what they believe to be the best job they should be doing, and were set in place to do, to the best of their abilities.

I believe that astronauts have walked on the moon. I don't believe there are any space aliens in area 51 or anywhere else in the universe for that matter. I believe that President Obama is a reasonably intelligent man who won the election fair and square and gets four years of governing our nation and that neither he nor other government workers are out to 'get' anybody with malice or other wicked intention.

Was the decision made here to 'single' out conservative groups for extra scrutiny in applying for tax exempt status a good and fair decision? I don't know unless I can know why the decision was made. If the person in charge of such orders had evidence given to him or found by him that there seemed to be a lot of conservative tax exempt status applications that were bogus, then yes, I'd say he made the right decision.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted


Wow, Ted! I don't remember where the verse is in Scripture but didn't Jesus tell the apostles to be wise as serpents and gentle as lambs? No offense, but I think you are gentle as a lamb and maybe somewhat wise. To explain away every thing the government does is rather naive, IMO. I think it was only 30% or 40% of Jews in Germany who left the country before the concentration camps were started. We know what happened to those who remained. They stayed because they didn't think things would get that bad. History always repeats itself and Christians are not well thought of in this government. My pastor told us about the feelings toward Christians in the Congress and Senate several years ago after attending a convention of the National Religious Broadcasters. The movement to blend Christianity with Catholicism, Islam and other religions is because they want our dependence and allegiance to worldly things. Whenever I have posted these things Christians begin criticising the NRB as if it's the government who should be defended over a Christian organization. It's sad to say but I think we are on the verge of tyranny. Sometimes I think it just boils down to the fact that it is sad to have to admit that the government is not necessarily concerned about the things which concern us and will do things that are harmful to the public. I'm sure you know that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." And I'm sure you've heard that most empires only last about 200yrs. before they self-destruct. It's difficult to admit that the U.S. could one day turn into a third world country, but God is no respector of men. What has happened in other countries can happen here. I saw on maybe the History Channel or maybe it was the NRB channel, not sure, the cycle of empires. Once one empire becomes wealthy and powerful and the people become prosperous, apathy sets in, values erode and the last cycle is tyranny and then it starts all over once the empire falls apart. We are in the cycle of apathy. If people even watch the news they believe everything they are told and just go with the flow. They vote for the handsomest and most charismatic candidate and don't even question his moral values. They don't care. 60% of Evangelicals voted for Obama, the candidate who doesn't believe that an infant born alive after a failed abortion should be given any medical care at all. A few voted for Romney and the rest stayed home because they didn't think they should vote for a Mormon. I don't know, were we electing a pastor? I'm trying to understand it: one candidate thinks we should kill a baby automatically if he survives an abortion and he claims to be a Christian but knows almost nothing about Christianity and made fun of Scripture verses in a speech. The other was a very good businessman, husband and father and a compassionate human being who often helped people in need but he belonged to a cult so he lost. Go figure.:confused: Were we electing a pastor?????

I mean, I hope that you know that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't kill JFK. He knew immediately that he was being used by the, probably CIA, and tried to tell everyone and then suddenly was killed. But that doesn't matter since most criminals declare their innocence. What was so obvious was that President Kennedy was shot from the front, not from behind. The small wound in his neck was used for a tracheostomy, according to the doctors in the ER, during the attempts to save him and the exit wound was in the back where the side and back of his head were blown off. Oswald could not have killed him because he was behind the motorcade. But most people just believe what they hear on the news and don't question anything. They casually call "questioning the story" a "conspiracy theory". People who question the "facts" become "conspiracy theorists". What happened to "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck"?

There is a lot of evil in this world. The people who saw to it that Jesus was murdered were corrupt people. There was a "conspiracy" to kill our Savior. Jesus pointed out the evil in their hearts many times.

And I have to say just one more thing. Are you sure that Obama won the election fair and square? I had difficulty when I voted. My vote for Romney was somehow deleted. I caught it before I got my paper vote and was able to go back and choose again. The person I reported it to said, "Oh I don't know why that happened. Just vote again." There was no checking of the computer, no concern at all. I, unfortunately, live in a blue state. And some counties, whole counties had not one vote for Romney. An entire county voting for one candidate never happens. Therefore I don't believe it was fair at all. I'm very suspicious about that election. I don't think I'll ever trust a computer vote, ever. There are many wealthy people who buy elections for the candidate they want. They are very powerful because of their wealth and influence.
 
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ebedmelech

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Yarddog

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They definitely need to find out what happened but the politicians need to stay out of it. There is a the as much of a scandal as first thought since both right and left wing PACs were targeted but they to find out why and correct the practices.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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And the timing starting 2 years before an election is just a coincendence. No worries that Ohio was one of the regions of "special attention". Race wasn't even close there. Right???

No concern that, as a someone drinking the koolaid said, no right wing PACs given this special scrutiny were denied tax-exempt status. No but PACs exist to help people get elected by serving as a legal funnel for donations for ELECTIONS.

Fat cat donars on both sides of this like donating to tax-exempt PAC organizations (for good reasons). One audit recorded almost 300 right wing PACs applications were flagged for this treatement during the two years leading up to the 2012 election and while none rejected, ALL were put on hold - essentially robbing them of the ability ($$$) to promote potential donars choice of candidate for the election - which means those donars essentially had their legal right to contribute to a candidate of their choice impeded by the government during that election period.

Oh same audit found several dozen liberal PACs targeted for same process but NONE having holds anywhere near approaching the rightwing PACs. Several dozen vs almost 300 seems fair. Right???:pray:

And am also certain if the tables had been turned in 2008 and this was a McCain 2012 re-election with the IRS targeting and holding up 300 liberal PACs we would hear nothing from the left but the same support/pass given the Dictator in Chief.

Nothing to see here folks, move along and be sure to give the same organization your healthcare info when filling out your returns next year.
 
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ebedmelech

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DrBubbaLove

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I think at the very least it means if accepted, they cannot nail her for denying she did anything wrong and then taking the 5th.

Lying to Congress is probably the only thing they could make stick but I kind of doubt anything will happen. Seems as long as one apologizes for lying under oath and is either a liberal or supports the cause or tows the line for them that nothing comes of it. It is only conservatives that get nailed for it.
 
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Street Knight

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Doesn't matter if WH is involved. Not about Dems vs. GOP; liberal vs. conservative.
The point that is being missed is that an agency of government has targeted American citizens for political beliefs. Americans have Rights to Freedom of speech, of association, and equal protection under the law. The government by the people, of the people, and for the people can not be involved in singling some groups for express processing and others for delay and harassment based on politics. That is what happens in a totalitarian state.
So I don't care if this came from the WH, Dept of Treasury, or IRS. I want to know where this came from, how far did it go, and how is it being dealt with?
 
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DrBubbaLove

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so, still no evidence that the WH was involved...yup...thought so.
and why would they be involved when progressive/liberal groups were also targeted?

many of you seem to be forgetting that...
No mentioned that one audit (not certain but this was a regional audit I think - not national) found almost 300 conservative and a couple dozen liberal PACs were targeted for "extra" processing during a two year period and that during that time ALL the conservative PACs applications were kept on hold - which basically mean those PACS were taken out of the election support process and voters were denied the right to potentially support a candidate of their choice because of what the IRS did.

Other audits found some conservative PACs applications were on hold for both election cycles 2008 and 2012. Another audit verified that comparing the two groups, not only were the liberal numbers a small fraction of the total, the length of holds on liberal PACs was far shorter.

To suggest with such one side treatement that it is mere coincedence the side in power just happened to have the advantage and probably would benefit from what transpired, especially when it extended over two election cycles seems naive to me. Also doubt people saying that would have given Bush (or McCain) the same benefit of doubt if this had been slanted the other way and those guys in power.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Doesn't matter if WH is involved. Not about Dems vs. GOP; liberal vs. conservative.
The point that is being missed is that an agency of government has targeted American citizens for political beliefs. Americans have Rights to Freedom of speech, of association, and equal protection under the law. The government by the people, of the people, and for the people can not be involved in singling some groups for express processing and others for delay and harassment based on politics. That is what happens in a totalitarian state.
So I don't care if this came from the WH, Dept of Treasury, or IRS. I want to know where this came from, how far did it go, and how is it being dealt with?
Well a totalitarian state would deny anything wrong occured and have state controlled media making fun of people who claim otherwise.
 
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Street Knight

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Well a totalitarian state would deny anything wrong occured and have state controlled media making fun of people who claim otherwise.

Didn't say that this is a totalitarian state, but this is the type of thing that happens in a totalitarian state.
 
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miamited

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Doesn't matter if WH is involved. Not about Dems vs. GOP; liberal vs. conservative.
The point that is being missed is that an agency of government has targeted American citizens for political beliefs. Americans have Rights to Freedom of speech, of association, and equal protection under the law. The government by the people, of the people, and for the people can not be involved in singling some groups for express processing and others for delay and harassment based on politics. That is what happens in a totalitarian state.
So I don't care if this came from the WH, Dept of Treasury, or IRS. I want to know where this came from, how far did it go, and how is it being dealt with?

Hi SK,

Well, I think that what you're forgetting is that the issuance of, or granting to, any business or taxable entity the classification of tax exempt status is a classification given by the government. Therefore, the government does have the right to use any reasonable means in checking, investigating and researching any taxable entity that applies for that government issued classification.

This happens all the time. Those who make the rules about who can collect SS or welfare or obtain bids to build highways and other government supported infrastructure are checked out in whatever way the agency that approves such things chooses to use.

If I bid to do some contracting work for the government in some capacity, when I send in my bid I expect the agency that I am applying to is going to check out my business. Is my business solvent? Do I have the necessary capital and equipment to do the job? Do I have the necessary expertise to do the job? Do I send a part of my income to an agency that promotes or supports terrorism against the US?

Yes, I can fight any decision that I deem to be unfounded, but whether I win or lose that fight doesn't in any way take away from the government the ability and fiduciary responsibility to check things out the way they see fit. As I have pointed out before, we are a people who operate on probabilities. We have companies and government agencies whose sole purpose is to predict probabilities based on statistical data.

If my insurance company finds that the majority of impaired drivers will be involved in accidents, then I expect that they will raise the rates of people who are found impaired and driving. Similarly, in this case, it would appear that there was found some statistical anomaly that showed that some sub-group of applicants for tax exemption were later found to have been predicated on fraud. Any prudent manager who would know of this information would be wise to issue a directive that the applications for tax exemption found to be coming from someone of such sub-group be more diligently scrutinized.

That's really, as far as I can tell, all that this is really about. An agency of the government that has the right and obligation and responsibility to check out tax exempt status applications has decided to use a certain statistical 'fact' as a part of its investigating technique. Now, those who may get caught in such a scrutiny are free to holler and scream and fight against it and may well win their individual cast, but that shouldn't have any bearing on the agencies ability to make its own decisions, based on some statistical data, to further check those who fall within the range of the data points.

We may holler and scream about this idea of the government listening in to our cyber conversations, but if that listening to billions and billions of conversations identifies one terrorist group that is considering flying fully fueled jet airplanes into buildings, we would want them to do that! I am personally amazed by these 'freedom fighters' who somehow think that the government has some magic wand by which it finds terrorists. The only way you find out someone is out to kill you is by sifting through a lot of fluff until you get to the meat.

The only way for the government to possibly identify a man who is taking flying lessons to learn to fly a fully fueled jet liner into a building is by checking and scrutinizing every application for flying lessons and using a statistical set of parameters to try and determine who might be taking their flying lessons for no other reason than to fly a jet into a building.

Another way for the government to possibly identify such a person is by eavesdropping in on conversations and electronic data that they have left behind. It's a very tough game and finding the means that work best is also very, very tough. It is hard for anyone to know what someone else is really up to. If they have some ulterior motive, then the only way we're likely to find that out is by investigating their actions. But you can't just send men out to stand on street corners and say, "Well, that guy looks like a terrorist based on the way he's dressed."

Similarly with tax exemption, Medicaid, SS, food stamps, etc. etc. etc. If there is some perceived gain to be made then there will be people who will attempt to get that gain even though it may not be due them. Searching those who are trying to abuse a system for gain is not easy. It's not like you can just put on the application - are you filing this application in order to defraud?, and expect that fraudsters to answer -yes. So, trying to weed out the fraudsters becomes a tough job and those who give such largess have the right and fiduciary responsibility, since it is our tax dollars, to have certain ways of checking.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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ebedmelech

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I don't know that debating this pro or con really matters as much as the fact that thus is an abuse of power.

I'm more interested that if this turns out to be a conspiracy to target and deny anyone that it gets exposed.

That's the real issue...:thumbsup:
 
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