Castaway57
Born Twice
"even when I sit in darkness; the Lord will be my light..." Micah 7:8
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The Interview with Dr. Kellogg
- Thread starter rainbowinthesky
- Start date
"even when I sit in darkness; the Lord will be my light..." Micah 7:8
The most precious message again in
a nut-shell:
"Justice demanded the sufferings of man;
but Christ rendered the sufferings of a
God. He needed no atonement of suffering
for Himself; all His sufferings were for us;
All His merits and righteousness were open
to fallen man, presented as a gift." E.G.W
Bible Commentary, vol.7,913.
All the merits and righteousness of Christ
are ours to claim on a daily basis that
we may become vessels fit for the Master's
use.
"If human beings would open the windows of
the soul heavenward, in appreciation of the
divine gifts, a flood of healing virtue would
pour in." Ministry of Healing, 116.
sky
a nut-shell:
"Justice demanded the sufferings of man;
but Christ rendered the sufferings of a
God. He needed no atonement of suffering
for Himself; all His sufferings were for us;
All His merits and righteousness were open
to fallen man, presented as a gift." E.G.W
Bible Commentary, vol.7,913.
All the merits and righteousness of Christ
are ours to claim on a daily basis that
we may become vessels fit for the Master's
use.
"If human beings would open the windows of
the soul heavenward, in appreciation of the
divine gifts, a flood of healing virtue would
pour in." Ministry of Healing, 116.
sky
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0
"The Redeemer, with a heart of unalterable
love, still pleads His sacred blood in the
sinner's behalf. The wounded hand, the
pierced side, the marred feet, plead
eloquently for fallen man, whose
redemption was purchased at such an
infinite cost. Oh, matchless condescension!
Neither time nor events can lessen the
efficacy of the atoning sacrifice. The
merits of the slain Lamb are accepted
today as a purifier from the defilement
of sin." 4 T 124.
"Faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ,
the remedy provided for sin." Faith & Works,
101.
Thanks be unto God and unto the Lamb for
the gift of the merits of Christ presented to
every man to be claimed by faith.
As we claim the merits of our Redeemer, we
are accepted and the Father loves us as He
loves Jesus! And thus we may go on from grace
to grace and from victory to victory for the
grace of God brings the righteousness of
Christ into our life and it accomplishes every-
thing as it is made manifest in obedience to
the law of God.
Thank God for His unspeakable gift!
sky
love, still pleads His sacred blood in the
sinner's behalf. The wounded hand, the
pierced side, the marred feet, plead
eloquently for fallen man, whose
redemption was purchased at such an
infinite cost. Oh, matchless condescension!
Neither time nor events can lessen the
efficacy of the atoning sacrifice. The
merits of the slain Lamb are accepted
today as a purifier from the defilement
of sin." 4 T 124.
"Faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ,
the remedy provided for sin." Faith & Works,
101.
Thanks be unto God and unto the Lamb for
the gift of the merits of Christ presented to
every man to be claimed by faith.
As we claim the merits of our Redeemer, we
are accepted and the Father loves us as He
loves Jesus! And thus we may go on from grace
to grace and from victory to victory for the
grace of God brings the righteousness of
Christ into our life and it accomplishes every-
thing as it is made manifest in obedience to
the law of God.
Thank God for His unspeakable gift!
sky
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Castaway57
Born Twice
No; thats not a "fact" at all. Just because you say it is does not make it so; by any stretch. It is easy to see from our history and the Bible account that a single movement is usually carried out in several stages, and over periods of time, lasting may years in some cases.
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An "angel" in this connection represents a "movement of people." There are four "angels" mentioned. Therefore there are four movements of people.
"These angels represent those who receive the truth and with power open the gospel to the world." Ellen, Bible Commentary, Vol.7, p.979.
The evidence for this was clearly shown as with
every movement of people the same pattern
develops. A minority of people from the previous
movement join the next and there is new leadership.
sky
"These angels represent those who receive the truth and with power open the gospel to the world." Ellen, Bible Commentary, Vol.7, p.979.
The evidence for this was clearly shown as with
every movement of people the same pattern
develops. A minority of people from the previous
movement join the next and there is new leadership.
sky
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Castaway57
Born Twice
Part One
For a long time, in fact for many years, Ellen G White had been trying to warn the Adventist Church about how Christ's second coming is being delayed, and about how we may have to remain much longer in this old world than anyone would dare to dream, because of this delay. And apparently, it is all due to a decided lack of dedication to the faith that we profess.
If you are a visitor to this forum, , or you have seen in other ways what anti-Adventist critics of our church are saying about this delay of Christ's coming, you will observe how the OP here has produced many quotes by Ellen White which aggressively draw together many barbs designed to deceive us into seeing the entire Adventist Church as being in throes of apostasy, and that a new organization will soon arise to replace us, and to "finish God's work;" and that Ellen G White, allegedly, gives full support to this idea of our church being lost in apostasy, and in need of being replaced by some new organization which will "finish the work."
The OP's wanton finger of criticism is being wagged feverishly at The General Conference, at other church leadership, and at anyone who dares to try and present the claims of scripture that the the OP here, and Kellogg are/were wrong; and that the Adventist Church will in fact, come through all of the apostasy and sin in the ranks; and that no new movement will actually be required to finish the work.
(TBC)
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Castaway57
Born Twice
Part Two
The OP of this thread has taunted us for weeks now with many dozens of posts, purportedly to "prove" how Kellogg's aggressive criticisms of our Church are to be viewed as "truth," and how sister White has supposedly made it her business to support Kellogg in his merciless, self-centered work.
The OP has especially tried to highlight many passages, which if used in a certain context, can be made to appear that Ellen G White is just as critical of Church leadership as was Kellogg, allegedly accusing them of delaying Christ's second coming, and of supporting all of Kellogg's charges against the Church.
The OP has even gone to the lengths of trying to say how that the Adventist Church is so deep in apostasy, that a totally new organization will arise to "finish the work;" and how most of the Ellen White quotes we could bring to the table to show this is not Ellen White's views, were just made up by church leaders, our earlier pioneers, who hated Kellogg.
So far, a nightmare scenario has been presented against the church by the OP with a seemingly ingenious argument ; applauding Kellogg's ideas and doctrines as something that the Church needs, and what Ellen White allegedly supports.
Such deception can be especially persuasive to new or to struggling members, mostly for the simple reason there is so much truth mixed with so much error, it is hard to tell the difference now in what the OP has presented.
(TBC
The OP of this thread has taunted us for weeks now with many dozens of posts, purportedly to "prove" how Kellogg's aggressive criticisms of our Church are to be viewed as "truth," and how sister White has supposedly made it her business to support Kellogg in his merciless, self-centered work.
The OP has especially tried to highlight many passages, which if used in a certain context, can be made to appear that Ellen G White is just as critical of Church leadership as was Kellogg, allegedly accusing them of delaying Christ's second coming, and of supporting all of Kellogg's charges against the Church.
The OP has even gone to the lengths of trying to say how that the Adventist Church is so deep in apostasy, that a totally new organization will arise to "finish the work;" and how most of the Ellen White quotes we could bring to the table to show this is not Ellen White's views, were just made up by church leaders, our earlier pioneers, who hated Kellogg.
So far, a nightmare scenario has been presented against the church by the OP with a seemingly ingenious argument ; applauding Kellogg's ideas and doctrines as something that the Church needs, and what Ellen White allegedly supports.
Such deception can be especially persuasive to new or to struggling members, mostly for the simple reason there is so much truth mixed with so much error, it is hard to tell the difference now in what the OP has presented.
(TBC
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Castaway57
Born Twice
Part Three
In the next few posts, it will be seen how the OP has deliberately deceived us by trying to present Kellogg as someone whom God was leading , and by trying to obscure the facts of our history how that for many years, Ellen G White saw the specious dangers of Kellogg's apostasy and how it was rapidly closing in to endanger the work of the Church and to confuse Adventists about their core beliefs.
We will also look at how Kellogg worked feverishly behind the scenes, using legal loop holes, to forbade any activities of a "sectarian" or "denominational" nature by our major health care ministry of the time, and that this is how Kellogg initially planted his seeds of apostasy and rebellion against any and all church authority.
In reviewing this part of our history, it will be seen that the "leadership" that Ellen White pointed out during this time period who were guilty of "delaying the second coming of Jesus," or of "following in the tracks of Romanism," were infact Kellogg and certain Conference officials or other leaders who supported Kellogg. We will also review how Kellogg's "ministry" was actually antagonistic to Mrs White's writings, and to any divinely appointed leadership or laity who supported her.
The OP for this topic has consistently refused to give specific, verifiable references for this alleged interview with kellogg; but the intentions of this writer will document and reference our church history which shows that for many years, Mrs White foresaw the dangerous apostasy that Kellogg and the OP for this thread have brought to us, and how during Kellogg's strongest leavening years; Ellen White actually moved to try and protect the Church from this Alpha apostasy; and to prevent God's people from being deceived by any insinuation that Kellogg and the OP of this topic have cleverly designed over many years, to weaken confidence in our ministers and in our message.
Everything is totally ready. Like Israel at The Jordan, God's people are now only a short journey from the promised land. And it is time for someone to take a stand against this apostasy and to help the Adventist message spread like wildfire. That is why we are seeing here, in this thread, the devil's counter-attack against the Adventist Church. He knows his time is short.
The OP has just blasted us with the apostasy called The Alpha.
This "most startling nature" is well-reflected in the OPs bold idea about The Adventist Church being "replaced."
But lets look at the OP and see how Mrs White would address it:
(TBC)
In the next few posts, it will be seen how the OP has deliberately deceived us by trying to present Kellogg as someone whom God was leading , and by trying to obscure the facts of our history how that for many years, Ellen G White saw the specious dangers of Kellogg's apostasy and how it was rapidly closing in to endanger the work of the Church and to confuse Adventists about their core beliefs.
We will also look at how Kellogg worked feverishly behind the scenes, using legal loop holes, to forbade any activities of a "sectarian" or "denominational" nature by our major health care ministry of the time, and that this is how Kellogg initially planted his seeds of apostasy and rebellion against any and all church authority.
In reviewing this part of our history, it will be seen that the "leadership" that Ellen White pointed out during this time period who were guilty of "delaying the second coming of Jesus," or of "following in the tracks of Romanism," were infact Kellogg and certain Conference officials or other leaders who supported Kellogg. We will also review how Kellogg's "ministry" was actually antagonistic to Mrs White's writings, and to any divinely appointed leadership or laity who supported her.
The OP for this topic has consistently refused to give specific, verifiable references for this alleged interview with kellogg; but the intentions of this writer will document and reference our church history which shows that for many years, Mrs White foresaw the dangerous apostasy that Kellogg and the OP for this thread have brought to us, and how during Kellogg's strongest leavening years; Ellen White actually moved to try and protect the Church from this Alpha apostasy; and to prevent God's people from being deceived by any insinuation that Kellogg and the OP of this topic have cleverly designed over many years, to weaken confidence in our ministers and in our message.
Everything is totally ready. Like Israel at The Jordan, God's people are now only a short journey from the promised land. And it is time for someone to take a stand against this apostasy and to help the Adventist message spread like wildfire. That is why we are seeing here, in this thread, the devil's counter-attack against the Adventist Church. He knows his time is short.
The OP has just blasted us with the apostasy called The Alpha.
This "most startling nature" is well-reflected in the OPs bold idea about The Adventist Church being "replaced."
But lets look at the OP and see how Mrs White would address it:
(TBC)
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Not long ago this appeared in the Adventist Review
Fantastic photo from 1901. Thank you GC Archives for posting it.
#OnThisDay (April 1) in 1901, before the formal opening of the General Conference session, Ellen White spoke to a specially called meeting of church leaders and urged a thorough reorganization of denominational administration. She proposed that: the General Conference Committee should represent all phases of the work; every institution should have a voice; the present Executive Committee should be relieved because it had accomplished little; the leading men should go out into the field to observe; there should be no "kings" in the work; and the gospel work and the medical work should be blended.
Yet Mrs.White had this to say about what took place at the 1901 General Conference: "The result of the last General Conference [1901] has been the greatest, the most terrible, sorrow of my life. No change was made. The spirit that should have been brought into the whole work as the result of that meeting was not brought in because men did not receive the testimonies of the Spirit of God. As they went to their several fields of labor, they did not walk in the light that the Lord had flashed upon their pathway, but carried into their work the wrong principles that had been prevailing in the work at Battle Creek." Manuscript Releases, vol.13,122.3.
In the right column of page 23 of the 1901 General Conference Bulletin, Mrs. White wrote: "I feel a special interest in the movements and decisions that shall be made at this conference regarding the things that should have been done years ago, and especially ten years ago, when we were assembled in conference, and the Spirit and power of God came into our meeting, testifying that God was ready to work for this people if they would come into working order. The brethren assented to the light God had given; but there were those connected with our institutions, especially with the Review and Herald office and the Conference, who brought in elements of unbelief, so that the light that was given was not acted upon. It was assented to, but no special change was made to bring about such a condition of things that the power of God could be revealed among His people. The light then given me was that this people should stand higher than any other people on the face of the whole earth, that they should be a loyal people, a people who would rightly represent truth. The sanctifying power of the truth, revealed in their lives, was to distinguish them from the world.
Year after year the same acknowledgement was made, but the principles which exalt a people were not woven into the work. God gave them clear light as to what they should do and what they should not do, but they departed from that light; and it is a marvel to me that we stand in as much prosperity as we do today. It is because of the great mercy of God, not because of our righteousness, but that His name should not be dishonored in the world." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.23
Six years later she wrote, "God says, 'I will be glorified in My people.' But the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct." Testimonies to Ministers, 481. This testimony was written in 1907 but was not published until 1909
So as you can see the report from the Review failed to take into account what Mrs. White said about what really happened at the 1901 General Conference. Why do you think that is?
sky
Fantastic photo from 1901. Thank you GC Archives for posting it.
#OnThisDay (April 1) in 1901, before the formal opening of the General Conference session, Ellen White spoke to a specially called meeting of church leaders and urged a thorough reorganization of denominational administration. She proposed that: the General Conference Committee should represent all phases of the work; every institution should have a voice; the present Executive Committee should be relieved because it had accomplished little; the leading men should go out into the field to observe; there should be no "kings" in the work; and the gospel work and the medical work should be blended.
Yet Mrs.White had this to say about what took place at the 1901 General Conference: "The result of the last General Conference [1901] has been the greatest, the most terrible, sorrow of my life. No change was made. The spirit that should have been brought into the whole work as the result of that meeting was not brought in because men did not receive the testimonies of the Spirit of God. As they went to their several fields of labor, they did not walk in the light that the Lord had flashed upon their pathway, but carried into their work the wrong principles that had been prevailing in the work at Battle Creek." Manuscript Releases, vol.13,122.3.
In the right column of page 23 of the 1901 General Conference Bulletin, Mrs. White wrote: "I feel a special interest in the movements and decisions that shall be made at this conference regarding the things that should have been done years ago, and especially ten years ago, when we were assembled in conference, and the Spirit and power of God came into our meeting, testifying that God was ready to work for this people if they would come into working order. The brethren assented to the light God had given; but there were those connected with our institutions, especially with the Review and Herald office and the Conference, who brought in elements of unbelief, so that the light that was given was not acted upon. It was assented to, but no special change was made to bring about such a condition of things that the power of God could be revealed among His people. The light then given me was that this people should stand higher than any other people on the face of the whole earth, that they should be a loyal people, a people who would rightly represent truth. The sanctifying power of the truth, revealed in their lives, was to distinguish them from the world.
Year after year the same acknowledgement was made, but the principles which exalt a people were not woven into the work. God gave them clear light as to what they should do and what they should not do, but they departed from that light; and it is a marvel to me that we stand in as much prosperity as we do today. It is because of the great mercy of God, not because of our righteousness, but that His name should not be dishonored in the world." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.23
Six years later she wrote, "God says, 'I will be glorified in My people.' But the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct." Testimonies to Ministers, 481. This testimony was written in 1907 but was not published until 1909
So as you can see the report from the Review failed to take into account what Mrs. White said about what really happened at the 1901 General Conference. Why do you think that is?
sky
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I hope that the reader will not take whatever castaway is saying for granted about the Interview with Dr. Kellogg and that he will take the time to read it for himself so that he can see if the document is authentic or not.
As far as I am concerned I have seen no reason to believe that it is not an authentic document.
sky
As far as I am concerned I have seen no reason to believe that it is not an authentic document.
sky
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Castaway57
Born Twice
I rest my case on that count. Your refusal to provide verifiable references for that "interview" shows the questionable nature of what you are posting. No one has to take what I say "for granted." You are the one refusing to provide evidence here, and all can see that.
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Castaway57
Born Twice
I have not submitted any kind of report from The Review in the three responses above that I posted. I have been providing some CONTEXT from SM 1 and other writings to show how the accusations you are throwing at us and our church have no basis in fact, and that our Church, along with Ellen White considered Kellogg to have apostasized, and his message to be the Alpha of the great apostasy to hit the Church. I will continue to expand on this context for it shows wonderfully how God has in fact been leading our Church and our people through all the valleys of deception, and over the mountains of apostasy. Already, what I have posted in my last three posts above, shows this well; and it is quite clear that Kellogg was an apostate, and that he preached what has become known as the Alpha Apostasy.
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Castaway57
Born Twice
Part Four
(some ideas for the next few posts will be drawn from Pastor Lewis Walton's book: "Omega II, as well as other church sources)
As far back as 1883, Ellen White was saying that the Lord could have come a long time before:
"Had Adventists, after the great disappointment of 1844, held fast their faith and followed on unitedly in the opening providences of God...Christ would have come 'ere this." (Ev. 695).
It is very interesting to note too that she had repeated this in almost identical terms, in 1894, and in 1898, and had published it in two of her most widely read books, The Great Controversy, and The Desire Of Ages. And in this very year, in 1900, she would say the same thing, yet another time, in 6T 450:
"Had the purpose of God been carried out by His people, Christ would, ere this, have come to the earth...but now, this last time, we note that Mrs White actually takes the further step of making further observation, revealing exactly what was holding up/delaying the purpose of God." her qualifying statements regarding this show plainly that she was not implicating the entire Church, or all of it's leaders everywhere:
"Let not means be absorbed in multiplying facilities where the work is already established. Do not add building to building, where many interests are now centered." (6T 450).
All of what Mrs White had been saying here was very specifically centered around a problem at Battle Creek where Kellogg was intimately involved, and which was rapidly veering out of control. Those in charge of our institutions at Battle Creek, were beginning to do exactly what Mrs White had warned them time and again not to do. Through Kellogg and his supporters, enormous means, talent, and effort, were being concentrated in very large, and increasingly unmanageable institutions; while in much more needy areas of the world, the work suffered from lack of funds.
Unfortunately, this lack of direction was reflected in the lives of lay people in Battle Creek as well. basking in a prosperity professing to be designed for the rapid finishing of God's work, many people became distracted by material wealth, adding home to home, and investment to investment, as though the world they lived in could go on forever. The delay in the second advent was certainly no mystery; it was caused by the persistent failure of some of God's people in Battle Creek, to get really serious about seeing Jesus.
Now the crises was approaching it's climax. There was a looming danger that the second advent, long impeded by some of the very people who were supposed to proclaim it, might be delayed a very long time, indeed. Infact, within a few months, Mrs White would disclose that the Church was on the brink of that very possibility:
"We may have to remain here in this world because of insubordination, many more years, as did the children of Israel;" she said in 1901, "but for Christ's sake, His people should not add sin to sin by charging God with the consequences of their own, wrong course of action. (EV 696).
Battle Creek Sanitarium: Ground Zero
Battle Creek Sanitarium was a huge facility which at one point, stretched a fifth of a mile along Washington Street. Ellen White warned, a thousand employees were beginning to see their work, not as a mission, but, as a comfortable, semi-secular career. For a church which was supposed to depend upon health evangelism as "the right arm of the message," this was a danger that could hardly be over-stated. Mrs White's warnings meant that in an operational sense, a vital church institution was dying.
For several years, the omens coming out of Battle Creek Sanitarium, had been very worrisome, crowned with many hints how that the massive institution could actually become lost to the Advent message and mission.
As far back as 1895, Dr John Harvey Kellogg, leader of the medical work at Battle Creek, had begun to establish The American Medical Missionary College. The name sounded reassuring enough, the sort of terminology well-suited to pacify attendees at constituency meetings; But, when asked to make the place more distinctly Adventist, Kellogg had shown that soothing cliches do not always tell the whole story. "This is not a sectarian school;" he had replied testily; and "sectarian doctrines" would not be taught there." (see Medical Missionary Conference Bulletin, Oct 1895).
By the year 1900, the Battle Creek Sanitarium was the strongest force in the Church , which implied that, if Adventism desired to secure the future of it's largest institution; that it would have to deal sooner or later with Doctor Kellogg, and in future posts here, we are going to uncover the details of this developing conflict with the Church and Doctor Kellogg. What the OP here has mistakenly labelled as the whole church, will be seen to actually have it's core in this Battle Creek dispute, and it's resulting apostasy. This will be seen to be the Alpha of the apostasy; and through our well-documented church history, we will track events to what can be seen as The Omega.
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The evidence is in the document itself. I suppose when speaking of "reliable" references you imply that the document does not have the "imprint" of the General Conference or of any of our publishing houses. The truth has its own credentials, it does not need the "imprint" of any man or committee of men. That is papal.
sky
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Before you even address the case with Dr. Kellogg you must be able to give an explanation for the president of the General Conference for saying in his inaugural speech in 2010 that the church has been following the divine instructions given to the G.C. leaders at the 1901 General Conference. The Adventist Review echoed his sentiments. Yet the Lord showed through Mrs. White that it was far from being the case. No one can refute the quotes I have shown from the 1901 G.C. Bulletin. They are irrefutable.
As far as Dr. Kellogg is concerned, it is the same, the interview clearly shows that there was a conspiracy on the part of the leaders of the General Conference to ruin him. These men, we are told in the Testimonies, were told what to do and what not to do in regard to organization but they departed from the light. This is what we read in the 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.23. Thus they apostatized. They put God aside and adopted the devisings of men and they were determined to bring the individuals to their terms and that included Dr. Kellogg and A.T. Jones who stood in their way. "They would rule or ruin." (T.M.360)
And one does not need to read the Interview with Dr. Kellogg to know this. One has only to study the book Testimonies to Ministers and The Testimonies for the Church. There is so much evidence that we have no excuse.
sky
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Not long ago this appeared in the Adventist Review
Fantastic photo from 1901. Thank you GC Archives for posting it.
#OnThisDay (April 1) in 1901, before the formal opening of the General Conference session, Ellen White spoke to a specially called meeting of church leaders and urged a thorough reorganization of denominational administration. She proposed that: the General Conference Committee should represent all phases of the work; every institution should have a voice; the present Executive Committee should be relieved because it had accomplished little; the leading men should go out into the field to observe; there should be no "kings" in the work; and the gospel work and the medical work should be blended.
Yet Mrs.White had this to say about what took place at the 1901 General Conference: "The result of the last General Conference [1901] has been the greatest, the most terrible, sorrow of my life. No change was made. The spirit that should have been brought into the whole work as the result of that meeting was not brought in because men did not receive the testimonies of the Spirit of God. As they went to their several fields of labor, they did not walk in the light that the Lord had flashed upon their pathway, but carried into their work the wrong principles that had been prevailing in the work at Battle Creek." Manuscript Releases, vol.13,122.3.
In the right column of page 23 of the 1901 General Conference Bulletin, Mrs. White wrote: "I feel a special interest in the movements and decisions that shall be made at this conference regarding the things that should have been done years ago, and especially ten years ago, when we were assembled in conference, and the Spirit and power of God came into our meeting, testifying that God was ready to work for this people if they would come into working order. The brethren assented to the light God had given; but there were those connected with our institutions, especially with the Review and Herald office and the Conference, who brought in elements of unbelief, so that the light that was given was not acted upon. It was assented to, but no special change was made to bring about such a condition of things that the power of God could be revealed among His people. The light then given me was that this people should stand higher than any other people on the face of the whole earth, that they should be a loyal people, a people who would rightly represent truth. The sanctifying power of the truth, revealed in their lives, was to distinguish them from the world.
Year after year the same acknowledgement was made, but the principles which exalt a people were not woven into the work. God gave them clear light as to what they should do and what they should not do, but they departed from that light; and it is a marvel to me that we stand in as much prosperity as we do today. It is because of the great mercy of God, not because of our righteousness, but that His name should not be dishonored in the world." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.23
Six years later she wrote, "God says, 'I will be glorified in My people.' But the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct." Testimonies to Ministers, 481. This testimony was written in 1907 but was not published until 1909
So as you can see the report from the Review failed to take into account what Mrs. White said about what really happened at the 1901 General Conference.
________________
These inspired statements constitute only a few of the testimonies in regard to what really happened at the 1901 General Conference.
And what about the 1903 General Conference? At that conference the apostate leaders annihilated the 1901 reformatory steps and voted A.G. Daniells as president of the General Conference against God's wish.
The 1901 General Constitution had abolished the position and title of president. A chairman of the committee was chosen instead. In fact it was A.D. Daniells. Why did he assume the position and title of president of the General Conference in 1902? Why did they vote him as president of the G.C. in 1903 if the position had been abolished in 1901?
This is all recorded.
sky
Fantastic photo from 1901. Thank you GC Archives for posting it.
#OnThisDay (April 1) in 1901, before the formal opening of the General Conference session, Ellen White spoke to a specially called meeting of church leaders and urged a thorough reorganization of denominational administration. She proposed that: the General Conference Committee should represent all phases of the work; every institution should have a voice; the present Executive Committee should be relieved because it had accomplished little; the leading men should go out into the field to observe; there should be no "kings" in the work; and the gospel work and the medical work should be blended.
Yet Mrs.White had this to say about what took place at the 1901 General Conference: "The result of the last General Conference [1901] has been the greatest, the most terrible, sorrow of my life. No change was made. The spirit that should have been brought into the whole work as the result of that meeting was not brought in because men did not receive the testimonies of the Spirit of God. As they went to their several fields of labor, they did not walk in the light that the Lord had flashed upon their pathway, but carried into their work the wrong principles that had been prevailing in the work at Battle Creek." Manuscript Releases, vol.13,122.3.
In the right column of page 23 of the 1901 General Conference Bulletin, Mrs. White wrote: "I feel a special interest in the movements and decisions that shall be made at this conference regarding the things that should have been done years ago, and especially ten years ago, when we were assembled in conference, and the Spirit and power of God came into our meeting, testifying that God was ready to work for this people if they would come into working order. The brethren assented to the light God had given; but there were those connected with our institutions, especially with the Review and Herald office and the Conference, who brought in elements of unbelief, so that the light that was given was not acted upon. It was assented to, but no special change was made to bring about such a condition of things that the power of God could be revealed among His people. The light then given me was that this people should stand higher than any other people on the face of the whole earth, that they should be a loyal people, a people who would rightly represent truth. The sanctifying power of the truth, revealed in their lives, was to distinguish them from the world.
Year after year the same acknowledgement was made, but the principles which exalt a people were not woven into the work. God gave them clear light as to what they should do and what they should not do, but they departed from that light; and it is a marvel to me that we stand in as much prosperity as we do today. It is because of the great mercy of God, not because of our righteousness, but that His name should not be dishonored in the world." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.23
Six years later she wrote, "God says, 'I will be glorified in My people.' But the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct." Testimonies to Ministers, 481. This testimony was written in 1907 but was not published until 1909
So as you can see the report from the Review failed to take into account what Mrs. White said about what really happened at the 1901 General Conference.
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These inspired statements constitute only a few of the testimonies in regard to what really happened at the 1901 General Conference.
And what about the 1903 General Conference? At that conference the apostate leaders annihilated the 1901 reformatory steps and voted A.G. Daniells as president of the General Conference against God's wish.
The 1901 General Constitution had abolished the position and title of president. A chairman of the committee was chosen instead. In fact it was A.D. Daniells. Why did he assume the position and title of president of the General Conference in 1902? Why did they vote him as president of the G.C. in 1903 if the position had been abolished in 1901?
This is all recorded.
sky
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Now you are quoting the following:
"We may have to remain here in this world because of insubordination, many more years, as did the children of Israel;" she said in 1901, "but for Christ's sake, His people should not add sin to sin by charging God with the consequences of their own, wrong course of action. (EV 696).
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I quoted the same the other day to show that as a people we have delayed the second coming of Christ. Christ should have returned shortly after 1844 as clearly shown in G.C.457-458. The next time He could have returned was shortly after 1888. But He did not because the light was resisted. (1 S.M.234-235)
And then in 1901, according to the statement from Evangelism, 696, we would have to remain in this world many more years because of insubordination, thus delaying His coming indefinitely. We are still here 112 years after 1901!
But you disagreed with me and said i was quoting out of context, as usual.
Now if the above is not making the case for the delay of Christ's return, pray tell me what would?
sky
"We may have to remain here in this world because of insubordination, many more years, as did the children of Israel;" she said in 1901, "but for Christ's sake, His people should not add sin to sin by charging God with the consequences of their own, wrong course of action. (EV 696).
___________
I quoted the same the other day to show that as a people we have delayed the second coming of Christ. Christ should have returned shortly after 1844 as clearly shown in G.C.457-458. The next time He could have returned was shortly after 1888. But He did not because the light was resisted. (1 S.M.234-235)
And then in 1901, according to the statement from Evangelism, 696, we would have to remain in this world many more years because of insubordination, thus delaying His coming indefinitely. We are still here 112 years after 1901!
But you disagreed with me and said i was quoting out of context, as usual.
Now if the above is not making the case for the delay of Christ's return, pray tell me what would?
sky
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Here are a few excerpts from the 1901 General Conference Bulletin, in regard to the principles that if they had been adopted, would have brought the reorganization that the Lord had been calling for, principles that were assented to at that Conference but which were annihilated at the 1903 General Conference by the then leaders:
"Then this also must be considered: that position, place, never gives authority. Authority qualifies for the place. I will say it again: it must be a watchword for every one in this conference: Position never gives authority... Place, position, never bestows authority. No authority is derived from the place. But authority that a man already has from God, which God has put upon him, will qualify a man for the place to which God calls him; and if he has not that authority before he enters the place, he has not the authority when he is in the place. The view that place gives authority is precisely the principle of papal infallibility. The pope is not infallible before he is elected. Nobody claims that. He is only a cardinal before he is elected; but as soon as he is elected, then he is infallible; then he is inspired by the Holy Spirit because he holds his place. That is the papacy.
Christianity is that God clothes men with authority; and whether they have any place or position, or not, it is all right, they have authority, anyhow. Look at it: Jesus Christ was in this world, truly saying, "All power (and that is 'all authority' in the Revised Version) is given unto Me in Heaven and in earth;" and He had no place at all, not so much as to lay his head. He had no position at all. The Pharisees, the priests, the scribes, the lawyers, the hypocrites, had position; they had place; and they could lord it over Him, and set Him before them, and sit in judgment upon Him. Where was their authority?--They had none.
Thus Jesus-Christ had the authority, and the people knew it, and the Pharisees who did not have it, grew so jealous of Him that they could not stand Him any longer. All the world has gone after Him, and so we must put Him out of the world to save our place. If we do not, we will lose our place.
The man who is connected with the Head, the man who serves God, the man who lives in Jesus Christ, can never lose his place; for his place is with Jesus Christ, under the wings of the Almighty, and he is safe. Where was Jesus' authority?--when He did not have any position or any place? How could He have authority? It was in the truth which He taught from God. All man's authority, all true and right authority in this world comes to him through the truth of God which he receives.
When we shall find a man in this world who has as much of the truth of God as Christ had in Him, we shall find a man who has all authority in heaven and earth, because he has all the truth in heaven and earth. The measure of the truth that a man has, only that measure of authority he has wherever he is. And if he is in the highest place of responsibility on this earth, if he has no truth, he has no authority. All the authority he can ever have in that place is the truth that is in Him, which is a part of him." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.41-42.
"Then this also must be considered: that position, place, never gives authority. Authority qualifies for the place. I will say it again: it must be a watchword for every one in this conference: Position never gives authority... Place, position, never bestows authority. No authority is derived from the place. But authority that a man already has from God, which God has put upon him, will qualify a man for the place to which God calls him; and if he has not that authority before he enters the place, he has not the authority when he is in the place. The view that place gives authority is precisely the principle of papal infallibility. The pope is not infallible before he is elected. Nobody claims that. He is only a cardinal before he is elected; but as soon as he is elected, then he is infallible; then he is inspired by the Holy Spirit because he holds his place. That is the papacy.
Christianity is that God clothes men with authority; and whether they have any place or position, or not, it is all right, they have authority, anyhow. Look at it: Jesus Christ was in this world, truly saying, "All power (and that is 'all authority' in the Revised Version) is given unto Me in Heaven and in earth;" and He had no place at all, not so much as to lay his head. He had no position at all. The Pharisees, the priests, the scribes, the lawyers, the hypocrites, had position; they had place; and they could lord it over Him, and set Him before them, and sit in judgment upon Him. Where was their authority?--They had none.
Thus Jesus-Christ had the authority, and the people knew it, and the Pharisees who did not have it, grew so jealous of Him that they could not stand Him any longer. All the world has gone after Him, and so we must put Him out of the world to save our place. If we do not, we will lose our place.
The man who is connected with the Head, the man who serves God, the man who lives in Jesus Christ, can never lose his place; for his place is with Jesus Christ, under the wings of the Almighty, and he is safe. Where was Jesus' authority?--when He did not have any position or any place? How could He have authority? It was in the truth which He taught from God. All man's authority, all true and right authority in this world comes to him through the truth of God which he receives.
When we shall find a man in this world who has as much of the truth of God as Christ had in Him, we shall find a man who has all authority in heaven and earth, because he has all the truth in heaven and earth. The measure of the truth that a man has, only that measure of authority he has wherever he is. And if he is in the highest place of responsibility on this earth, if he has no truth, he has no authority. All the authority he can ever have in that place is the truth that is in Him, which is a part of him." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.41-42.
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Castaway57
Born Twice
Reliable references means something the people can easily verifiy themselves; it has nothing to do with the actual source. The only truth that has the kind of credential you are speaking of is scripture; I suppose now thats what you are telling us about your writings.
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God's organization must come from the Head, which is Jesus Christ, the Head of the church; and it reaches to the individual. Now see the step that was taken in General Conference today. I want you to see how certainly that can never stop until it has reached each individual and brought him face to face with God, to stand there alone only with God. There was presented today, and endorsed, an appeal for local self-government in a certain place. Very good. And then it was said here that that was to be adopted in other parts. Very good. And when that district shall be organized there will be a local self-governing district; but the same process must go farther--each conference must be a self-governing local conference, and each church must be a local self-governing church, and each individual must be a local self-governing individual...
But no man in this world can be a self-governing individual except as God in Christ is his Head, and the man is governed by the power of God. The only self-government, true self-government, in this world is a man standing in the liberty wherewith Jesus Christ has made him free, master of his worst self and living in the divine self, which is Jesus Christ. Then he has met the enmity, the evil, and has it underfoot; and there he stands in the heaven born liberty with which God has made him free, a free, self-governing individual, as God made him to be in the beginning, and as He makes him to be when He makes him again...
Now do you see that this step we took today never can stop short of that? Is not that plain enough? Then, brethren, the thing for each one in this conference to do is to get there just as quickly as possible. Each one, then, must have set up in himself, and must be in himself, a local self-government, to the glory of God. But no man can ever do that, as I have said, except by the power of God in him; and no man can do that and remain a local self-governing man except he stands alone with God, apart from everyone else, and everything else, in the wide universe. Now that does not separate him from all other people. Our truest unity with other people is our whole loneliness with God. Our truest fellowship, our sincerest love, our tenderest sympathy, reaching out to all people is found only in standing absolutely alone, separate from all other things, with God...
I say again, the step taken should never stop until every Seventh-day Adventist is brought face to face with God. And for what shall we be brought to face to face with God? To find our bearings, which we have been exhorted to find. And having found our bearings, then let God in Christ be the Head, and the grand Organizer." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.103.
Now from the 1903 General Conference Bulletin:
"The principle of that testimony that brought us to the present constitution, that was the guiding of the making of the present constitution, is the principle of self-government. Each church, each man, indeed, governs himself, with God, with Christ, as his own personal Head, and with no conference as his head, no church elder as his head, no Union Conference president, or any other, as his head. Jesus Christ alone is his Head; and when these form themselves into a church, Jesus Christ is the Head of that church, and the elder is not." A.T. Jones, 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.153.
"The Conference Committee governs for itself, acts for itself, attends to its own business, and lets other people's business alone. The Union Conference Committee itself is a self-governing committee. It governs itself, not the conference, not any of the churches, nobody in the conference. The General Conference Committee is to be a self-governing committee, not to govern any other conference, or anybody at all but itself. And this Constitution (1903) opens the way for the committee--I do not say that the members intended it--it opens the way for them to encroach and governs somebody besides themselves. What I am after is that we shall have a constitution that shall everlastingly make that thing impossible; and the present Constitution (1901) does it." Idem, p.154.
But no man in this world can be a self-governing individual except as God in Christ is his Head, and the man is governed by the power of God. The only self-government, true self-government, in this world is a man standing in the liberty wherewith Jesus Christ has made him free, master of his worst self and living in the divine self, which is Jesus Christ. Then he has met the enmity, the evil, and has it underfoot; and there he stands in the heaven born liberty with which God has made him free, a free, self-governing individual, as God made him to be in the beginning, and as He makes him to be when He makes him again...
Now do you see that this step we took today never can stop short of that? Is not that plain enough? Then, brethren, the thing for each one in this conference to do is to get there just as quickly as possible. Each one, then, must have set up in himself, and must be in himself, a local self-government, to the glory of God. But no man can ever do that, as I have said, except by the power of God in him; and no man can do that and remain a local self-governing man except he stands alone with God, apart from everyone else, and everything else, in the wide universe. Now that does not separate him from all other people. Our truest unity with other people is our whole loneliness with God. Our truest fellowship, our sincerest love, our tenderest sympathy, reaching out to all people is found only in standing absolutely alone, separate from all other things, with God...
I say again, the step taken should never stop until every Seventh-day Adventist is brought face to face with God. And for what shall we be brought to face to face with God? To find our bearings, which we have been exhorted to find. And having found our bearings, then let God in Christ be the Head, and the grand Organizer." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.103.
Now from the 1903 General Conference Bulletin:
"The principle of that testimony that brought us to the present constitution, that was the guiding of the making of the present constitution, is the principle of self-government. Each church, each man, indeed, governs himself, with God, with Christ, as his own personal Head, and with no conference as his head, no church elder as his head, no Union Conference president, or any other, as his head. Jesus Christ alone is his Head; and when these form themselves into a church, Jesus Christ is the Head of that church, and the elder is not." A.T. Jones, 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.153.
"The Conference Committee governs for itself, acts for itself, attends to its own business, and lets other people's business alone. The Union Conference Committee itself is a self-governing committee. It governs itself, not the conference, not any of the churches, nobody in the conference. The General Conference Committee is to be a self-governing committee, not to govern any other conference, or anybody at all but itself. And this Constitution (1903) opens the way for the committee--I do not say that the members intended it--it opens the way for them to encroach and governs somebody besides themselves. What I am after is that we shall have a constitution that shall everlastingly make that thing impossible; and the present Constitution (1901) does it." Idem, p.154.
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