The Interview with Dr. Kellogg

[Castaway57]

the only conclusion you can come to is that this has to be a fraud.

So should we be surprised at anything?

sky

In answer to the question; "no." I am not surprised to see someone come to this board and pronounce some of Ellen White's writings as "fraud." Its a common ploy to distract when someone cannot actually prove their position with VERIFIABLE references when asked to.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

If the above from castaway does not convince
the reader that he/she is twisting and misrepresenting
everything I post, what will?

I have never accused Mrs. White of fraud. On the
contrary, I have shown that there have been, on
the part of the leading men who had departed from
the precious light sent to them from Heaven,
manipulations and fabrications of "testimonies" in order
to bring the individuals to their terms.

We have been warned:

"They would rule or ruin." T.M.360.

You see, if the Lord had spoken, that was the end of
the story and this is how the gift of prophecy was used
and abused in order to maintain their usurped authority
for they had put God aside and accepted the devisings
of men. (T.M.481) The Lord allowed all this to take place
just as He allowed the Jewish rulers, the men who composed
the Sanhedrin, "to exercise their authority in controlling men
according to their will." T.M.361.

She wrote, "The high-handed power that has been developed,
as though position has made men gods, makes me afraid
and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by
whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's
heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction
that a state of insubordination will result." Idem, 361.

In other words, these leading men, not being kept by the power
of God, were working under Satan's dictation:

"Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God,
will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the
control of men; and fraud and guile will bear the semblance
of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of
God. Whatever in our practice is not as open as day belongs
to the methods of the prince of evil. His methods are practiced
even among Seventh-day Adventists who claim to have advanced
truth." Idem, 366.

Can we afford to put our heads in the sand and ignore these
solemn warnings? Only at the peril of losing our eternal life.

This is how things were being done in the church in those days
and this is how things are being done today. Nothing has changed
for it is the same order of things that is in place today, the same
order of things that God wanted changed. At the 1901 General
Conference, the Lord had said,

"What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the
foundation and build upon a different principle." E.G. White, 1901
G.C. Bulletin, p.25.

Before 1901 the Lord had repeatedly asked for a reorganization.
The leaders would make an acknowledgment and yet they would
do nothing to bring about the change:

"Year after year the same acknowledgment was made, but the
principles which exalt a people were not woven into the work.
God gave them clear light as to what they should do, and what
they should not do, but they departed from the light." E.G. White,
1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.23.

The Lord had said, "There will be no material change until there is
a decided movement to bring in a different order of things." T.M.360.

At the 1903 General Conference, there was a decided movement, not
to bring in a different order of things according to God's order, but to
continue the status quo and today we are no closer to the order of
things that God wanted than in those days. This can only mean that
decade after decade "the work of making man amenable to man" has
been waxing stronger and stronger. The Lord warned that this work
would continue to develop and increase until Jesus came in the clouds
of Heaven.

And that would explain why we have been told that "The Lord
will work in this last work in a manner very much out of the
common (present) order of things and in a way that will be
contrary to any human planning." Testimonies to Ministers, 300.

So if someone says that I am against Adventism or accusing
Mrs. White of fraud, do not believe him. It could not be any
further from the truth.

sky

 

[rainbowinthesky]

And that is why in the last pages I have been posting
on the subject of the merits and righteousness of
Christ in the context of the 1888 message which shows
that the only way to be kept by the power of God is by
having a living connection with Christ and the only way
to have a living connection with Christ is by laying right
hold upon His merits by living faith:

"How has it been with His disciples in all ages of the world?
Why, they have learned of Jesus, they have been in His
school; they have been His students, and have learned
the lessons of Christ in regard to the living connection
that the soul has with God. That living faith is essential
for our salvation that we should lay hold upon the merits
of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour, on Christ our
righteousnes." E.G. White, Faith & Works, 64.

In previous posts I have shared the statements that
I have learned at the school of Christ, which plainly
tell us how we lay hold upon the merits of a crucified
and risen Saviour: by claiming them.

Hence we read, "The only faith that will benefit us is
that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: Which
appropriates His merits to ourselves." Desire of Ages,
347.

We appropriate the merits of Christ to ourselves by
claiming them. It is our privilege to do so. (T.M.93)

And why is it vital that we daily appropriate the merits
of Christ to ourselves? To bring Christ's righteousness
into our life and His righteousness accomplishes
everything as it is made manifest in obedience to
all the commandments of God. See F.W.65-66;27;
T.M.92.

This is the 1888 message in clear, distinct lines,
the third angel's message. Received, believed,
and acted upon, it reorganizes us in Christ who
is the Head of every man (1 Cor.11:3; 3:11; Col.
1:18) that we may no longer be the servants of
men but of God. (1 Cor.7:23)

sky

 

[Castaway57]

You stated above that a portion of 1 SM I quoted was "fabricated." I didn't say that. You did. If you want to blame me for something, you should get the facts straight, and be willing to say it like it is. When it is convenient for one of your theories, you just say something is "fabricated" and that is so far very much unproven. I am not sure how you expect anyone to believe that kind of thing...

 

[rainbowinthesky]

I am talking about fabrications of testimonies
to bring A.T. Jones to their terms. I do not
question anything in the Testimonies except
in regard to what has been claimed about
Dr. Kellogg and A.T. Jones.

I did not blame you for anything.

You are saying that I am stating that Mrs.
White was a fraud. What I have said was
that the leading men were guilty of fraud
and guile. (T.M.366)

In regard to the letter found on page 377
of Selected Messages, Vol.1, addressed
to A.T. Jones, I have been in in contact
with someone who personally knows the
individual in charge of Mrs. White's
writings in California. He inquired to this
individual about this alleged letter and,
interestingly enough, he could not
authenticate it.

sky

 

[Castaway57]

You have really missed the boat on this one then - because as I have said, and you know full well I am right, what I quoted from 1 SM was not fabricated; it was not authored by our leading men. Ellen White penned that stuff. You need a different trojan horse for this one my friend.

 

[Castaway57]

In regard to the letter found on page 377
of Selected Messages, Vol.1, addressed
to A.T. Jones, I have been in in contact
with someone who personally knows the
individual in charge of Mrs. White's
writings in California. He inquired to this
individual about this alleged letter and,
interestingly enough, he could not
authenticate it.

sky

Here we go again; no references, means no credibility in the answer. How convenient that only you have the great insight to decide which of the testimonies are "fabricated." Its a great Trojan to use in garnering a few followers, but it does mean you are destroying confidence in the testimonies, and systematically dismantling the Advent faith here on this forum. This kind of thing has been seen before, and is not about to go away. "Interestingly" your statements here cannot be verified or authenticated, because it is on public record that you have refused to give references when asked for them.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

Well then, do your homework.
The ball is in your court to
authenticate that letter
which means that you need
to produce that letter in Mrs.
White's hand writing. They
could not find it.

But if that letter could be
found it would be a serious
problem for it would flatly go
against the statement found
on page 130 of the same
volume 1 of Selected Messages.

 

[Castaway57]

lol, the proverbial "ball" is always in my court, eh? Conveniently absolving you of any need to provide references for your attacks on the Adventist church and her beliefs. If you had done your own "homework," you would provide references, as I always do. If you like, we dont even have to talk about whats fabricated or not fabricated. I just want to know where you got your information. Are you saying we have no right to question you on that score? It sure looks like it. According to your own stated standards here; isn't that "following in the tracks of Rome?"

​

 

[rainbowinthesky]

The very fact that we are still here today
is the most powerful evidence that as a
people, like Israel of old, we have failed of
accomplishing our God-given task. We have
continued to delay the latter rain and the
loud cry and, by the same token, Christ's
second return.

Eighteen years after the church had been
formally organized (1863), its work could
be seen to be progressing at more than a
satisfactory rate in all fields. A
willingness to labor was expressed, and
activity could be found everywhere. But
while on the surface the work seemed to
be progressing smoothly, with the Lord's
blessing, in reality there lurked a
condition which had supplanted God and
could not be allowed to exist. Ellen White
counseled on this point. In reference to
this grave situation, she wrote:

"The steady progress of our work, and our
increased facilities are filling the hearts
and minds of many of our people with satisfaction
and pride, which we fear will take the place of the
first love of God in the soul. Busy activity in the
mechanical part of even the work of God may so occupy
the mind that prayer shall be neglected; and self-
importance and self-sufficiency, so ready to urge
their way, shall take the place of true goodness,
meekness, and lowliness of heart. They are more ready
for active labor than for humble devotion, more ready
to embrace in outward religious service than in the
inner work of the heart. Meditation and prayer are
neglected for bustle and show." Testimonies, Vol.4,
p.534 (1881)

The remedy for this condition could only be less reliance
on form and the mechanical operation of the organization
and total reliance upon the merits of Christ and the grace
of God. Then love would spring up in the heart:

"God will accept everyone that comes to Him trusting
wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour.
Love springs up in the heart. There may be no ecstacy
of feeling but there is an abiding, peaceful trust."
Selected Messages, Vol.1, 354.

Is this not the "faith that works by love" that the
apostle Paul speaks of in Gal.5:6 and Rom.5:5 and
Romans 13:10?

The tendency to rely on human methods and plans waxed
stronger despite repeated entreaties from the servant
of the Lord:

"Now it has been Satan's determined purpose to eclipse
the view of Jesus and lead men to look to man, and trust
to man, and be educated to expect help from man, but not
looking to Jesus in whom our hopes of eternal life are
centered... Many had lost sight of Jesus and they needed
to have their eyes directed to Him, to His divine
Person, to His merits, and to His changeless love for
the human family." Testimonies to Ministers, pp.93,92.

 

[Castaway57]

The very fact that we are still here today
is the most powerful evidence that as a
people, like Israel of old, we have ailed to
accomplish our God-given work. We have
continued to delay the latter rain and the
loud cry and, by the same token, Christ's
second return.


"Now it has been Satan's determined purpose to eclipse the view of Jesus and lead men to look to man, and trust to man, and be educated to expect help from man, but not looking to Jesus in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered... Testimonies to Ministers, pp.93,92.

This is one of the biggest mistakes in your private interpretations yet. God's plans know neither haste, nor delay. It is all under His control, not our's.

You want us to trust in your "help" then how is that any different? You are here, as a person who no longer attends/supports our church, and telling us what and how to believe. We are not allowed to ask you questions or ask for references, without being labelled, and being given evasive, or denunciating replies. To be honest, most of our leaders that I can think of have not eclipsed any view of Jesus like you have been doing here.

You say that "it has been Satan's determined purpose to eclipse the view of Jesus and lead men to look to man, and trust
to man, and be educated to expect help from man" well we are Seventh-day Adventists and we don't need this very kind of "education" from you either. We know what we believe and we dont need or want people like you who dont know what we believe to tell us.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

"God cannot glorify His name through His people while
they are leaning upon man and making flesh their arm."
Testimonies, Vol.5, p.729.

It is easier to sit back and let someone else determine what
is and is not the truth, and then accept that interpretation
as our own. The membership had come to expect to be spoonfed
the truth rather than search for it themselves.

Satan knows that if he can bring the membership to rely upon
the leadership, he need only to concentrate upon the leadership
to accept his methods and plans.

Thus the need for the first angel's message to be sounded:

"Fear God and give glory to Him."

"Those who feared God were to think for themselves.
They were no longer to let other men do their
thinking. They were no longer to be chained down
to erroneous theories, maxims, and doctrines."
E.G. White, This Day With God, 23.

This was and still is a critical issue .

"Our churches are weak because the members are
educated to look to and depend upon human
resources." Testimonies to Ministers, p.380.

"A strange thing has come into our churches.
Men who are in positions of responsibility,
that they may be wise helpers to their fellow
workers, have come to suppose that they are
set as kings and rulers in the churches (and
on the forums) to say to one brother, do this;
to another, do that; and to another, be sure
to labor in such and such a way. There have
been places where the workers have been told
that if they did not follow the instruction
of these men of responsibility, their pay
from the conference would be withheld." Idem,
pp.477,488. (1909)

 

[taikachanz]

It's time you put this diatrabe to an end. Deut. 19:15 "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." Kellogg's case was settled by his own writings witnessing against him and others who recognized the falseness therein. You, however, bring an accusation against one who cannot speak out because he is no longer here. Nor have you any support except suppostion, enuendo, and spurious heresay. Where are your witnesses? Were you there? We cannot go by "he said, she said". This matter was closed long ago and should remain closed. Becareful what you do in this matter, what you may have intended to bring upon him you accuse may well come back upon you. Deut. 19:19 "Then shall ye do unto him as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt those put the evil away from among you." Your intent here seems to be to bring disrepute upon a certain individual, or perhaps more, becare that it does not come back at you.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

The real motive for rejecting the 1888 message was a
reluctance and a refusal of those in positions of
leadership to move over and give God control. Jesus is
the only safe guide for the conscience. The Holy Spirit
must be allowed to develop the religious conscience and
direct each member in the work of God:

"The Head of every man is Christ. The church is
built upon Christ as its foundation; it is to
obey Christ as its Head. It is not to depend
upon man, or be controlled by man. Many claim
that a position of trust in the church gives
them authority to dictate what others shall
believe and what they shall do. This claim God
does not sanction. The Saviour declares, 'All
ye are brethren.' All are exposed to temptation,
and are liable to error. Upon no finite being
can we depend for guidance. The Rock of faith
is the living presence of Christ in the church.
'Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and
maketh flesh his arm.' 'Blessed are they who
put their trust in God.'" Desire of Ages, p.414.

"Many who profess to know God turned from the One
in whom our hope of eternal life is centered and
have educated themselves to depend upon their
erring and fallible fellowmen. The are crippled
spiritually when they do this; for no man is
infallible, and his influence may be misleading.
He who trusts in man not only leans upon a broken
reed and gives Satan opportunity to introduce
himself, but he becomes lifted up in his estimation
of himself and loses the sense of his dependence
upon God. Just as soon as he is placed where God
should be, he loses his purity, his vigor, his
confidence in God's power. Moral confusion results,
because his powers become unsanctified and perverted.
He feels competent to judge his fellowmen, and he
strives unlawfully to be a god over them." Testimonies
to Ministers, p.376.

"The high-handed power that has been developed
as though position has made men gods makes me
afraid and ought to cause fear." T.M.361.

 

[Castaway57]

The first number of the Testimonies ever published contains a warning against the injudicious use of the light which is thus given to God's people. I stated that some had taken an unwise course; when they had talked their faith to unbelievers, and the proof had been asked for, they had read from my writings instead of going to the Bible for proof. It was shown me that this course was inconsistent and would prejudice unbelievers against the truth. The Testimonies can have no weight with those who know nothing of their spirit. They should not be referred to in such cases. {CCh 95.2}

 

[Castaway57]

"I saw that many have taken advantage of what God has shown in regard to the sins and wrongs of others. They have taken the extreme meaning of what has been shown in vision, and then have pressed it until it has a tendency to weaken the faith of many in what God has shown, and also to discourage and dishearten the church.” 124 {CCh 95.5}

 

[Castaway57]

And now, brethren, I entreat you not to interpose between me and the people, and turn away the light which God would have come to them. Do not by your criticisms take out all the force, all the point and power, from the Testimonies. Do not feel that you can dissect them to suit your own ideas, claiming that God has given you ability to discern what is light from heaven and what is the expression of mere human wisdom. If the Testimonies speak not according to the word of God, reject them. Christ and Belial cannot be united. For Christ's sake do not confuse the minds of the people with human sophistry and skepticism, and make of none effect the work that the Lord would do. Do not, by your lack of spiritual discernment, make of this agency of God a rock of offense whereby many shall be caused to stumble and fall, "and be snared, and be taken." 125 {CCh 96.1}

 

[rainbowinthesky]

The warnings that God has sent are
not to discourage anyone. On the
contrary.

"All His promises, His warnings, are but the
breathing of unutterable love." Steps to
Christ, p.35, bottom of page.

sky

 

[Castaway57]

The enemy will seize everything possible to use in his favor and to destroy souls. Testimonies have been borne in favor of individuals occupying important positions. They commence well to lift the burdens and act their part in connection with the work of God. But Satan pursues them with his temptations, and they are finally overcome. As others look upon their wrong course, Satan suggests to their minds that there must be a mistake in the testimonies given for these persons, else these men would not have proved themselves unworthy to bear a part in the work of God. {3T 469.2}

 

[Castaway57]

The first number of the Testimonies ever published contains a warning against the injudicious use of the light which is thus given to God's people. [VOL. 1, 119.] I stated that some had taken an unwise course; when they had talked their faith to unbelievers, and the proof had been asked for, they had read from my writings instead of going to the Bible for proof. It was shown me that this course was inconsistent and would prejudice unbelievers against the truth. The Testimonies can have no weight with those who know nothing of their spirit. They should not be referred to in such cases. {5T 669.2}