The Injustice of Arminianism

[sdowney717]

The context argument does not work here as I gave you an abundance of Scriptures in context that declare salvation was intended for the whole world and that Christ would draw all men to Himself (though not all would answer).



This is why I mentioned in my first post in this topic that this issue will continue to go in circles because on both sides of the debate (free will vs. sovereignty) a premise is being used which is grounded genuinely in Scripture, but is incomplete without reconciling the two according to what the Scripture says about God's knowledge, desire, and planning. I answered all this in that first post, confirming it with Scripture throughout.

You do not acknowledge God to give Him ALL the glory. You attribute to man the work of God.

John 6:28
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[Thir7ySev3n]

You do not acknowledge God to give Him ALL the glory. You attribute to man the work of God.

John 6:28
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

The only way this debate stands between any group of brothers, it seems, is for the Calvinist one to continue to strawman and misrepresent the arguments of the opposition. These arguments always devolve into semantics and framing the Calvinist detractors in a false light.

I am not denying the power of God. The only way a man can come to Christ is if the Father who sent Him draws them. Except Jesus said all men would be convicted by the Holy Spirit and drawn, so that all are enabled to believe if they choose subsequent to that enabling. But some, though enabled, do not. This is why God literally pleas with sinners to repent, which would be a pretentious gesture if He is pleading for them to overpower His resistance of them:

"‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’" (Ezekiel 33:11)

I'm not denying God any glory. You are denying God honour for ALL that He is when you reject His explicit planning and will for all to repent who will choose to do so, as He draws all men to Himself (John 12:32).

 

[jimmyjimmy]

“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:37-40 ESV).


"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32 ESV)
​

Does Jesus mean that He will either save every single in John 12:32? Either He is promoting Universalism, or "all" doesn't mean every single person without exception. Using scripture to interpret scripture we see that Jesus is not speaking of ether saving of even calling every person. John 6 makes that abundantly clear.

 

[Thir7ySev3n]

“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:37-40 ESV).


"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32 ESV)
​

Does Jesus mean that He will either save every single in John 12:32? Either He is promoting Universalism, or "all" doesn't mean every single person without exception.

False dichotomy. He will draw all people to Himself, but not all will respond affirmatively.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

One of the first things I learned when I began discussing God's sovereignty in election is that many people pay no attention to contact or language. Creating a view by ripping a single verses from their context (Fortune cookie theology, as I like to call it) is the norm, it seems.

Secondly, people aren't careful with God's word. They don't handle it with care and thoughtfulness, trying to get at its intended meaning.

Thirdly, it seems that many also imagine the Bible was originally written in English to Christians. There seems no understanding that the original languages have ben translated into English, and there are at times difficulties which arise because of this.

Lastly, there tends to be a literalistic approach to the texts by some which ignores how we use language. For example, the largest hook that Arminians hang their hats on is that the word, "all" always means everyone, without exception. It clearing doesn't:

Mark 1:5 "And there went out to him ALL the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem and were ALL baptized in the river Jordan"

John 8:2 "And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and ALL the people came unto him; and he sat down and taught them."

Acts 22:15 "For thou (Paul) shalt be a witness unto ALL men of what thou hast seen or heard."

Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of ALL men for my name's sake."

Luke 23:18-19 And they all cried out at once, saying, "Away with this [Man], and release to us Barabbas" (19) who had been thrown into prison for a certain rebellion made in the city, and for murder.

 

[sdowney717]

“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:37-40 ESV).


"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32 ESV)
​

Does Jesus mean that He will either save every single in John 12:32? Either He is promoting Universalism, or "all" doesn't mean every single person without exception. Using scripture to interpret scripture we see that Jesus is not speaking of ether saving of even calling every person. John 6 makes that abundantly clear.

Exactly, the all does not mean every each person who is alive all over the world is drawn.
It means that those who are drawn are drawn by Christ.
The ones drawn are not OF the world, they are IN but not OF the world. They are OF the Father, and so then are drawn- which means DRAG - DRAGGED (DRUG sort of under the influence of the Holy Spirit) to Christ, compelled to Him by an inward power.
To be drawn to Christ means your salvation.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own.

Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

seems a lot of 'believers' along with those of the world hate this idea of just a few some certain ones being chosen by God because they are not OF THE WORLD.

Believers, we are OF GOD, because of Him you are in Christ Jesus.
1 John 4:6
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The way some people describe the gospel they are in so huge of an error. Paul in those last 2 verses is speaking about the elect whom God appointed for salvation, while those OF the world are appointed wrath. As Peter also says

1 Peter 2:7-9New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Those who believe do so because they have been given mercy by God to be begotten again == saved.
Obtained mercy, the elect have obtained it.
Romans 11

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

God has NOT rejected His people whom He foreknew, and regarding the saved remnant, He foreknew them as His people, so they were elect to obtain mercy from God to be of the saved, they are of God, not of the world and ths was determined before their birth, before they had done anything either good or bad, that God's purpose according to ELECTION by GRACE to be the LOVED and SAVED of God would stand, not of man's will. Those who are begotten of God is according to the will of God. And being born again comes prior to the confession of your faith in Christ by which you are then sealed in the Holy Spirit and enter the kingdom of God.


.11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I've across many posts on CF in which it is clear that the reader takes a passage literally. That's a good thing - sometimes.

The issue with a literal reading is that not all texts are meant to be taken literally.

Here's a simple example:

Rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.
​

Does this text mean that Christians should never sleep because they must rejoice always? Should they never converse with another human because they a continually praying to the Father?

I think that we must attempt to understand genre, figures of speech and hyperbole, if we are to properly handle God's word.

New thread on this subject here: Taking the Bible Literally. . .

 

[rockytopva]

I have no idea what your point is. Would you kindly explain your point without a story?

1. There was no need for Calvin to complicate the issues of salvation.
2. If Calvin would not have went overboard in his thinking there would have been no need for Arminius to try to straighten the whole mess out.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. - 2 Cor 11:3

Behold the tree of knowledge was presented as something to make one wise.This is Calvinism... They think they know, but such knowledge puff up, making the professors haughty and proud.

Exodus 32:31-33 (KJV)
31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Revelation 3:5 (KJV)
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


John 21:21-23 (KJV)
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

The book of life and the affairs of others is not the business of man. To confess the Lord Jesus, turning away from all sin, finding the will of God for oneself, living the Godly life, and walking in the grace in the Holy Spirit is the business of man.

I simply see no need for either Calvinism or Arminianism and consider such studies a basic distraction.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I simply see no need for either Calvinism or Arminianism and consider such studies a basic distraction.

OK; however, I do see its value.

 

[Strong in Him]

Many accuse God of being, "unfair" in His election of some, but not all, people; however, they don't seem to understand that the alternative view in which God simply provides a way for men to be saved, but leaves them to their own devices, i.e., "free will", makes God out to be truly unjust because not all people have had equal opportunity in which to make their "choice".

Well if they've never heard he Gospel, they've never had a chance to either accept or reject it.

The Biblical doctrine of election teaches that God shows mercy to some, and justice to the rest. He would be completely just in condemning all mankind, would He not?

Yes.
But is it loving, or fair, to reject some sinners and send his Son to save others?

The alternate, and errant, view is that God gives everyone a choice, assuming that every person who has every lived has had access to good preachers, godly teachers, Bibles in their language, Christlike neighbors. . . The reality is that many many millions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel. How "fair" is that? (according to the Arminian view)

Like I said, if someone has never heard the Gospel, how can they be judged for rejecting it?
Even if someone has "heard" the Gospel, they may be unable to accept it because, for example, their experience of "love" might in fact be sexual abuse. So they might not be able to hear it, because bad experiences, hurts or preconceptions get in the way.

As far as I can see, only people who have met Christ, believe in him, have experienced salvation and KNOWN God's eternal love, mercy and grace, but say, "no thanks; I'll do my own thing", will be judged for rejecting Christ. Other people may reject him because they don't really know him, or appear to reject him when in fact they are only rejecting the church.

Only God can judge.

 

[zippy2006]

Many accuse God of being, "unfair" in His election of some, but not all, people; however, they don't seem to understand that the alternative view in which God simply provides a way for men to be saved, but leaves them to their own devices, i.e., "free will", makes God out to be truly unjust because not all people have had equal opportunity in which to make their "choice".

On Calvinism, some people have absolutely no chance to be saved. God determines that they will go to Hell before they are born or have done anything bad or good.

On Arminianism, everyone has a chance to be saved, but some have a greater chance than others.

You can call Arminianism unjust, but if by this argument you claim that Arminianism is unjust, you must at the same time admit that Calvinism is greatly more unjust. No one who thinks that Arminianism is unjust for this reason could accept Calvinism.

And one could easily hold that Arminianism is not unjust at all. God punishing for failure to do the impossible is clearly unjust (Calvinism). But God giving some a greater chance than others is not intrinsically unjust (Matthew 20:1-16). The objection to Calvinism is not inequality among humans, but impossible demands on God's part.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

if someone has never heard the Gospel, how can they be judged for rejecting it?

There aren't. They are judged for their sin.

 

[Rick Otto]

Many accuse God of being, "unfair" in His election of some, but not all, people; however, they don't seem to understand that the alternative view in which God simply provides a way for men to be saved, but leaves them to their own devices, i.e., "free will", makes God out to be truly unjust because not all people have had equal opportunity in which to make their "choice".

The Biblical doctrine of election teaches that God shows mercy to some, and justice to the rest. He would be completely just in condemning all mankind, would He not?

The alternate, and errant, view is that God gives everyone a choice, assuming that every person who has every lived has had access to good preachers, godly teachers, Bibles in their language, Christlike neighbors. . . The reality is that many many millions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel. How "fair" is that? (according to the Arminian view)

Do you hold to a view of salvation which makes God out to be unjust? How do you defend your position?

I agree with you, and the opening to psalm 19 describes how God both indicts and evangelizes everyone.
Only those He has elected to adopt will respond positively. It isn't unfair to save a few when all deserve death. The ones he chooses demonstrate his choice does not depend upon their being worthy because no one is, all are enemies until saved by merciful grace, not their own decision. The decision isn't even understandable to an unsaved, perishing person. So the freedom of the will is not involved.
" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I agree with you, and the opening to psalm 19 describes how God both indicts and evangelize all humanity.

Yes; therefore, all are guilty.

The apostle Paul might have had Psalm 19 in mind when we penned Romans 1. . .

 

[Rick Otto]

QUOTE="zippy2006, post: 71546494, member: 342410"]On Calvinism, some people have absolutely no chance to be saved. God determines that they will go to Hell before they are born or have done anything bad or good.

That's exactly right and is verified in Romans 9 as well as many others. And it has to be so if God is all knowing. An all knowing God could not create a beginning of anything without also knowing it's end. Both beginning and end are his creation, otherwise you have a God who doesn't know what he's done and has to "peek into a future" he doesn't already know about. Foreknowledge is a result of pre-determining.

On Arminianism, everyone has a chance to be saved, but some have a greater chance than others.

in Calvinism, everyone has the same chance to be saved - none at all. In Calvinism, "chance" is a pagan god and the sovereignty of God, a divine fact.

You can call Arminianism unjust, but if by this argument you claim that Arminianism is unjust, you must at the same time admit that Calvinism is greatly more unjust. No one who thinks that Arminianism is unjust for this reason could accept Calvinism.I

I don't think Arminianism has anything legit to do with justice. I use a different word to describe it... egotistical.

And one could easily hold that Arminianism is not unjust at all. God punishing for failure to do the impossible is clearly unjust (Calvinism). But God giving some a greater chance than others is not intrinsically unjust (Matthew 20:1-16). The objection to Calvinism is not inequality among humans, but impossible demands on God's part.

paradox is indeed a challenge to understand something from a more elevated perspective, God challenges us to do the impossible, not just a fair share of what can be realistically expected because he wants our best, not a lukewarm effort. He invites us to the very end of our own strength to learn that faith, not works is what saves

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Foreknowledge is a result of pre-determining.

Yup, but that a difficult pill for mankind, who has assumed he is autonomous, to accept; however; God is God.

Also, it's difficult for some to understand and accept how this fits together with the choices which men do make, without coercion.

 

[EmSw]

Many accuse God of being, "unfair" in His election of some, but not all, people; however, they don't seem to understand that the alternative view in which God simply provides a way for men to be saved, but leaves them to their own devices, i.e., "free will", makes God out to be truly unjust because not all people have had equal opportunity in which to make their "choice".

The Biblical doctrine of election teaches that God shows mercy to some, and justice to the rest. He would be completely just in condemning all mankind, would He not?

Jesus told us who obtains mercy.

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

He doesn't just give mercy willy nilly because He chooses to do so. He gives mercy to the merciful. Of course, I expect some not to believe this...we'll see.

The alternate, and errant, view is that God gives everyone a choice, assuming that every person who has every lived has had access to good preachers, godly teachers, Bibles in their language, Christlike neighbors. . . The reality is that many many millions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel. How "fair" is that? (according to the Arminian view)

Do you hold to a view of salvation which makes God out to be unjust? How do you defend your position?

Salvation depends upon one's intent of his heart, and his life according to this intent.

Since God does not change, we can find this in several verses in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 18:23

Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?


Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

This applies to every man, woman, and child. How will a man live except he turn from his wickedness? This is for those who've heard the Gospel and for those who haven't. And this is for the elect also!

I'm sure many will say this is not required to be saved, that is, live, but they would be rejecting God and His word. These two passages become foolishness to them.

 

[Rick Otto]

QUOTE="Strong in Him, post: 71546365, member: 103116"]Well if they've never heard he Gospel, they've never had a chance to either accept or reject it.

All creation declares the glory of God, 24/7, 360 days each year (psalm 19)... therefore, Romans 1:22_23 (none have an excuse)

Yes.
But is it loving, or fair, to reject some sinners and send his Son to save others??

yes. How so? Because justice must exist. Mercy trumps justice, but if justice did not exist, neither would mercy. There would be no reason for it.

Like I said, if someone has never heard the Gospel, how can they be judged for rejecting it?
Even if someone has "heard" the Gospel, they may be unable to accept it because, for example, their experience of "love" might in fact be sexual abuse. So they might not be able to hear it, because bad experiences, hurts or preconceptions get in the way.

psalm 19 aside, are you assuming God is powerless to intervene in his own creation? 1Cor 2:14 explains no one at all is able to understand spiritual things even if they are in top physical and mental condition because it isn't the physical person who comes to an understanding, it is a the dead spirit within that is brought to life in the knowing.

As far as I can see, only people who have met Christ, believe in him, have experienced salvation and KNOWN God's eternal love, mercy and grace, but say, "no thanks; I'll do my own thing", will be judged for rejecting Christ. Other people may reject him because they don't really know him, or appear to reject him when in fact they are only rejecting the church.

I respectfully disagree that it is possible to both know and then reject, Christ

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Many accuse God of being, "unfair" in His election of some, but not all, people; however, they don't seem to understand that the alternative view in which God simply provides a way for men to be saved, but leaves them to their own devices, i.e., "free will", makes God out to be truly unjust because not all people have had equal opportunity in which to make their "choice".

The Biblical doctrine of election teaches that God shows mercy to some, and justice to the rest. He would be completely just in condemning all mankind, would He not?

The alternate, and errant, view is that God gives everyone a choice, assuming that every person who has every lived has had access to good preachers, godly teachers, Bibles in their language, Christlike neighbors. . . The reality is that many many millions have lived and died without ever hearing the gospel. How "fair" is that? (according to the Arminian view)

Do you hold to a view of salvation which makes God out to be unjust? How do you defend your position?

What About Those People Who Have Died Never Hearing About Jesus?

God knows the hearts of all men. God knows the future of every person and He knows their hearts. There is nothing that God does not know. God is righteous and good and He will judge all men fairly. So what about those who die not hearing the gospel message or without hearing about Jesus? Is there a chance they are saved? Can someone live righteously apart from faith in Jesus and be saved? No, it's not possible.

We have to understand that if any man desires to truly know God, the Lord will send someone so that they may hear the gospel message. However, those who do not desire God or those who will just end up rejecting God's message are under no obligation that they must receive the gospel message in order to be condemned. First, God would have already known about their denial of Him (if they were to have heard the gospel message). There are no surprises for God. There is nothing that He does not know. He knows the life of an entire individual before they are even born. That is why God is able to take innocent babies to Paradise. God knows that these babies are those who would have accepted Him if they lived out their life. Second, if God did not draw all men, then no man would ever come to God. Those who reject God are those who would have never wanted to be with God in the first place. The Bible teaches that the unbelieving individual is “holding down the truth in unrighteousness” (Romans 1:18). Without God's drawing of all men, then men would actually run away from Him. The Gentile world in the Old Testament did not seek after God as a whole and yet, some of them repented and were saved. Without God and His drawing, men would be doomed. The Gentile world on it's own would not seek after God if the Lord left them to their own devices. Hence, the phrase: “There is none that seeketh after God” (Romans 3:11, KJV). Therefore, it is not a case of God refusing to get His Word to someone who is desperately searching for the truth. Jesus says He draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32). For God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). For Jesus stands at the door of the heart of every person and knocks so that He can come into them (Revelation 3:20).

In other words, those who have not heard of the gospel message and died are those type of people of whom God knew would have just rejected Jesus and the gospel anyways. For if anyone who truly desires God, then the Lord will send them a true believer whereby they will hear about Jesus and the gospel.

For God answered the prayer of Cornelius, and sent the apostle Peter to him to give him the full story of Jesus. When Peter preached to him, Cornelius put his trust in Christ as his Savior. This example demonstrates that anyone who is sincerely desiring to know God will hear about Jesus.

There are people today, like Cornelius, who are praying the same prayer to know the true and living God, and they are being reached no matter where they might live. Simon Peter stated, “I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:34–35, KJV).

The Scriptures contain other examples of individuals who were accepted by God, even though their knowledge of Him was limited. Rahab, the prostitute, had only the smallest amount of knowledge of God, but the Bible refers to her as a woman of faith, and her actions were commended (Joshua 2:9; Hebrews 11:31).

Naaman, the Syrian, was granted peace with God because he exercised faith, even though he was living in the midst of a pagan culture (II Kings 5:15–19). Jonah, the prophet, was sent to Nineveh, a heathen society, and they repented at his preaching (Jonah 3:5).

No one will be condemned for not ever hearing of Jesus Christ. That person will be condemned for violating his own moral standard. “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel” (Romans 2:12–16, KJV).

In fact, it is the same way God has always done things. For God operated in the same way in the Old Testament, too. For God or Christ does not change (Malachi 3:6) (Hebrews 13:8). He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is loving and fair to all people. But not all people desire God, though.


Side Note1 :

Oh, and one more thing. Do you really care whether it would be unjust or not in regards to the question asked in the thread title? Yes, or no?

Side Note 2:

As for your message in your Twilight Zone Banner in each of your posts:
I strongly disagree that the Calvinistic position is looking to Scripture at face value. Many verses in the BIble talk about the free will of the believer. One has to willingly ignore them all in order to make Calvinism work. For only a few verses appear to teach Calvinism and they are simply taken out of context.


....

 

[sdowney717]

The only way this debate stands between any group of brothers, it seems, is for the Calvinist one to continue to strawman and misrepresent the arguments of the opposition. These arguments always devolve into semantics and framing the Calvinist detractors in a false light.

I am not denying the power of God. The only way a man can come to Christ is if the Father who sent Him draws them. Except Jesus said all men would be convicted by the Holy Spirit and drawn, so that all are enabled to believe if they choose subsequent to that enabling. But some, though enabled, do not. This is why God literally pleas with sinners to repent, which would be a pretentious gesture if He is pleading for them to overpower His resistance of them:

"‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’" (Ezekiel 33:11)

I'm not denying God any glory. You are denying God honour for ALL that He is when you reject His explicit planning and will for all to repent who will choose to do so, as He draws all men to Himself (John 12:32).

Not at all!
The ministry of condemnation had glory, but far exceeds that the ministry of righteousness as much more glorious.

The progression for the elect is clearly exposed regarding glorification and it begins with whom He foreknew as taught in Romans 8.

Romans 9, clearly tells us God endures with longsuffering vessels of wrath, for the sake of the vessels of mercy, study the parable of the wheat and the tares.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?