The Indie Thread (2)

[blackwasp]

But for the sake of your credibility within this debate, you should have opted for some (at least slightly) more obscure and less obvious choices.

I don't understand this. How does obscurity relate to an artist's ability to write?

You miss the point, my friend. A songwriter's work is not always done once the ink has dried on the page. There is something to be said for delivery. And "Just Like a Woman" is a love song that is, to quote music critic Bill Wyman (no relation to the Rolling Stones bassist), "so elegant and confused, it's not clear today, nearly 35 years later, whether it is insufferably condescending or startlingly loving."

P.S. I notice that a critique of "Visions of Johanna" is conspicuously absent.

There is something to be said for delivery. However, delivery seems harder to judge objectively than lyrics. I also fail to see why "music critic Bill Wyman" is the final authority.

I didn't mention "Visions of Johanna" because I'm less familiar with that song than "Just Like a Woman". For the record, I do agree that that is a fine song.

P.S. I notice that a critique of "Sadie", which I posted, is conspicuously absent.

We finally agree 100%. I only used him because he was the initial reference point, but can we just retire Dylan from this debate altogether? I'm quite sick of referencing him at this point too.

This was my mistake. For some reason, I thought you were hailing Dylan lyrically, whereas you actually were just using him as a general reference to bash everything "indie".

I'm a bit perplexed. I responded to an invitation to a debate with a fellow poster in which I cited example upon example corresponding with each of my key points, and took part in this discussion which I had no interest in only because I was incessantly asked to do so-----this qualifies as taking "cheap shots?"

---Just making sure, y'know, for the record.

I wouldn't necessarily consider my PM an invitation to debate. You told me to "put up or shut up". I responded with a lengthy post, which was ignored, so I assumed that you missed it. I consider it message board etiquette to respond to a post that is specifically addressing you.

I still don't see how you cited example upon example qualifying your stance. In fact, you've yet to address any of the lyrics I provided other than saying that the artists I find inspiring aren't obscure enough. I apologize if I've pulled you into a discussion that you do not wish to continue. I'm fine with dropping it where it's at. However, there used to be more drawn out discussions like this at CF a year or so ago, and I feel like I learned a great deal from some of them. I cannot say the same for this correspondence.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

You honestly expect me to take this post seriously? All you did was list me every "it" indie band of the moment: Joanna Newsom, the Decemberists, Modest Mouse, Wilco, Bright Eyes, Built to Spill, Neutral Milk Hotel, Elliott Smith, Iron & Wine, the Mountain Goats---did you just go on a 17-year-old's Myspace and copy/paste their "music" section? None of these could hold a candle to a lyricist of Dylan's caliber, and you'll probably realize that about five years from now when their popularity wanes and the next batch of hot indie bands is ushered in.

P.S. I'd give you props for including the Velvets, 'cept that you (of course) picked the one song that everyone knows, off the album that every Sufjan Stevens-worshippin' "indie" kid has.

Some of those are "it" bands to some degree, not all though (Built to Spill or The Mountain Goats have never been "it" bands).

Good job being a total jerk, though.

 

[theFijian]

I'm a bit perplexed. I responded to an invitation to a debate with a fellow poster in which I cited example upon example corresponding with each of my key points, and took part in this discussion which I had no interest in only because I was incessantly asked to do so-----this qualifies as taking "cheap shots?"

---Just making sure, y'know, for the record.

needless condescension = cheap shot. Blackwasp has been a gent in taking you seriously, you just seem like a jumped up mojo reader with a point to prove to me.

 

[The Theory]

haha. "jumped up mojo reader." I'm gonna remember that one... I'm sure that phrase will come in handy sometime!

 

[ariotofmyown]

I don't understand this. How does obscurity relate to an artist's ability to write?

C'mon man, when I ask you to give me some examples of lyricists who are better than Bob Dylan, a list of current hot indie bands was the best you could come up with? No offense, but you had to know that I wouldn't be able to take said list very seriously.

There is something to be said for delivery. However, delivery seems harder to judge objectively than lyrics.

Agreed/point well taken, however, you can't completely dismiss a song such as "Just Like a Woman" on the basis of it's lyrical content alone.

I also fail to see why "music critic Bill Wyman" is the final authority.

I don't recall ever having claimed that Wyman is the final authority. But I did like his eloquently-worded assesment of the song I was talking about. Not being a plagiarist, I gave credit where credit was due. I wasn't aware that quotes aren't allowed in this discussion, but from here on out, I'll stop using them if that will make you happy.

I notice that a critique of "Sadie", which I posted, is conspicuously absent.

In all honesty, Joanna Newsom's voice grates on my nerves far too much for me to be able to sit through any of her songs in their entirety, therefore I wouldn't be able to make a fair judgment call.

I apologize if I've pulled you into a discussion that you do not wish to continue. I'm fine with dropping it where it's at. However, there used to be more drawn out discussions like this at CF a year or so ago, and I feel like I learned a great deal from some of them. I cannot say the same for this correspondence.

Don't get the wrong idea, man, I have been enjoying this discussion and would be fine with continuing it. I'd also like to thank you for your consistent civility, especially since many other posters on this forum have gotten their panties in a wad due to my frankness (case in point: theFijian). Like you said, "All in good fun."

Some of those are "it" bands to some degree, not all though (Built to Spill or The Mountain Goats have never been "it" bands).

Again, they may not be considered "it bands" where you come from, but they most definitely are here in California.

Good job being a total jerk, though.

I do my best.

needless condescension = cheap shot.

Simply having a condescending attitude does not a cheap shot equal. That doesn't even make sense, if you think about it. "Cheap Shot" implies an actual comment, you're only talking about my overall tone. To elaborate further, a cheap shot is A) Making an unfounded comment about a person (especially when made in reference to an event, situation, or circumstance that you have little or no knowledge about), or B) Making a comment which was seemingly specifically constructed/executed by the commenter to venture ridiculously far outside the boundaries of good taste.

Your comment managed to meet both qualifications.

haha. "jumped up mojo reader." I'm gonna remember that one.

I like that one too. Props to "theFijian" for finally contributing something worthwhile to this thread.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

Again, they may not be considered "it bands" where you come from, but they most definitely are here in California.

Yes, and that dictates the rest of Indiedom.

None of their albums have seen the kind of attention that "it" bands receive. They're old and their records get middling sales and decent reviews. I am a big Mountain Goats fan. You cannot say to me that they are an "it" band.

 

[ariotofmyown]

Yes, and that dictates the rest of Indiedom.

And, of course, poses the question: Where is the indie capital of the U.S.?

 

[Arnold_Philips]

And, of course, poses the question: Where is the indie capital of the U.S.?

Hipsters per capita would probably be NYC, Seattle, Austin... then I don't know.

 

[ariotofmyown]

Hipsters per capita would probably be NYC, Seattle, Austin... then I don't know.

I don't know about NYC, I go there all the time, and I barely see any indie kids. They're probably all in Staten Island, though. I can just imagine what it's like in Seattle...

 

[theFijian]

I like that one too. Props to "theFijian" for finally contributing something worthwhile to this thread.

Congrats on being the only music forum member to find a place on my ignore list. Your polemic is very tired. As if we haven't heard before that the rock dinosaurs are better lyricists/performers/whatever than the cool indie hipster bands...

 

[blackwasp]

C'mon man, when I ask you to give me some examples of lyricists who are better than Bob Dylan, a list of current hot indie bands was the best you could come up with? No offense, but you had to know that I wouldn't be able to take said list very seriously.

I still don't understand this. If you refuse to listen to an artist because they're popular within a certain group of people, you're bound to miss out on a lot of really good music. Plus, if an artist is good, don't you expect them to gain some sort of attention?

I couldn't be happier that bands like Modest Mouse and Wilco are finally making money.

Agreed/point well taken, however, you can't completely dismiss a song such as "Just Like a Woman" on the basis of it's lyrical content alone.

Agreed, and I don't. I was under the impression that we were only discussing lyrical content.

I don't recall ever having claimed that Wyman is the final authority. But I did like his eloquently-worded assesment of the song I was talking about. Not being a plagiarist, I gave credit where credit was due. I wasn't aware that quotes aren't allowed in this discussion, but from here on out, I'll stop using them if that will make you happy.

I misunderstood your intentions. Quote away.

In all honesty, Joanna Newsom's voice grates on my nerves far too much for me to be able to sit through any of her songs in their entirety, therefore I wouldn't be able to make a fair judgment call.

I can understand that someone wouldn't be able to listen to her music because of her voice, however, I find it beautiful. I wasn't asking you to listen to the song. I was only asking that you read the lyrics I posted.

Don't get the wrong idea, man, I have been enjoying this discussion and would be fine with continuing it. I'd also like to thank you for your consistent civility, especially since many other posters on this forum have gotten their panties in a wad due to my frankness (case in point: theFijian). Like you said, "All in good fun."

Not a problem. I'm afraid we're chasing our tails here, though, and don't know what else there is to say other than we see things differently.

I am curious in some artist recommendations. Since I'm only listening to "it" bands, I'd be more than happy for you to suggest some better music for me.

I like that one too. Props to "theFijian" for finally contributing something worthwhile to this thread.

I notice that you have a low post count and haven't been around here long.

I'm very thankful for artist recommendations from The Fijian (Belle and Sebastian, Bonnie "Prince" Billy) and Arnold_Philips (The Mountain Goats, Man Man); not to mention all the bands I listen to thanks to philN, The Theory, and nadroj1985.

I think if you'd give some of these posters a chance, you could find some very good music.

 

[white_frog914]

Hey. Enough. Let's talk about the Pogues now please.

 

[ozanaki tori]

Hello.
My name is Steven John and I'm a recovering indie kid.
It has been a couple of weeks since I listened to any indie music.
The last CD I bought was a new copy of Coldplay's A Rush of Blood to the Head and The Strokes' First Impressions of Earth.
I was tempted to listen to Oh No! Oh My! and Two Gallants today, but I resisted!

 

[blackwasp]

Hey. Enough. Let's talk about the Pogues now please.

Let's talk about Jens Lekman instead. Any fans?

 

[philN]

Jens Lekman rocks...in a totally twee sort of way.

I really do like Jens Lekman though, and I was really upset when he said he was going to stop making music. And then a few weeks later, I was really happy that he decided not to actually stop making music.

 

[antiarte]

Hot Chip anyone? "Playboy" is just too damn cool.

 

[antiarte]

and about who's the best lyricist? it's Lindsay Lohan. she's so good she doesn't need to write her own songs. laters.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

Hot Chip anyone? "Playboy" is just too damn cool.

Hot Chip's new album is pretty impressive.

 

[white_frog914]

Let's talk about Jens Lekman instead. Any fans?

Should your house ever explode while you're sleeping...


...I didn't do it.

 

[Arnold_Philips]

Islands' (1/2 of The Unicorns) is pretty good, if you like The Unicorns in the first place, which I kinda did... and I like this better.