The Immaculate Conception contradicts the gospel (2)

[Defensor Christi]

Yes, of course I know that you believe that your church is the one and only church on the face of the earth and that the rest of us are schismatics, heretics, sectarians, ecclesial communities, separated brethren, etc. depending how the current wind of semantics might be blowing.

What helps your argument is that fact that you believe that your church alone has the fullness of truth, including the dogma of the IC as being salvific which none of the rest of us assent to.

At least we are on the same page now...

 

[Defensor Christi]

Some 1800 years ago, however there were only two choices about HOW, either normal birth with normal afterbirth (thus virginity ends) or abnormal, as a spirit out the side, or through the wall (thus virginity retained).

That has never been defined by the Church...

"Please note that the Church never has authoritatively ruled on the interpretation or specifics of <virginitas in partu>. Moreover, on July 27, 1960, the Holy Office (now the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) warned again discussing this issue in a way "...clearly opposed to the traditional doctrine of the Church and the devotional sense of the faithful."

Father William Saunders

 

[Mama Kidogo]

At least we are on the same page now...

Sarcasm, meet sarcasm.

 

[Standing Up]

That has never been defined by the Church...

"Please note that the Church never has authoritatively ruled on the interpretation or specifics of <virginitas in partu>. Moreover, on July 27, 1960, the Holy Office (now the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) warned again discussing this issue in a way "...clearly opposed to the traditional doctrine of the Church and the devotional sense of the faithful."

Father William Saunders

I know RC hasn't defined the HOW. Of course they can't rule on the specifics of the HOW. To do so would "remove the emperor's clothes" and reveal its nakedness. It would force RC to tell the world they think Jesus was born from Mary's side (the east gate (see John of Damascus for example)) or as a spirit through a wall, thus retaining virginity.

And yes, to discuss this, to introduce a question, about an RC de fide dogma is a mortal sin, the penalty of which RC believes will send a Christian to hell. As we are well aware, however, some of us do not belong to or believe in RC Church.

 

[barryatlake]

Standing Up, you wrote: "I know RC hasn't defined the HOW. Of course they can't rule on the specifics of the HOW. To do so would "remove the emperor's clothes" and reveal its nakedness. It would force RC to tell the world they think Jesus was born from Mary's side (the east gate (see John of Damascus for example)) or as a spirit through a wall, thus retaining virginity.

And yes, to discuss this, to introduce a question, about an RC de fide dogma is a mortal sin, the penalty of which RC believes will send a Christian to hell. As we are well aware, however, some of us do not belong to or believe in RC Church. "

How do you know ? Were you there ? You write as a two thousand year old Johnny -come- lately, try reading the writings of the early Christians who were there who actually knew the Blessed Virgin Mary the mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.

 

[SolomonVII]

The earliest stories of the Virgin Birth scenario involve the east gate.

The Virgin Mary's Womb as Ezekiel's Closed Gate of the Messiah | Taylor Marshall

Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because my eyes have seen strange things&#8212; because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to you: a virgin has brought forth&#8212; a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God lives, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

 

[Albion]

IC is a dogma of RC. In order for them to be saved (go to heaven), they must believe Mary is a virgin, before, during, and after birth.

Confusing. Are you discussing the IC or Mary's virginity? The two have actually nothing to do with each other.

 

[Standing Up]

Confusing. Are you discussing the IC or Mary's virginity? The two have actually nothing to do with each other.

Oops. My error.

 

[Standing Up]

Standing Up, you wrote: "I know RC hasn't defined the HOW. Of course they can't rule on the specifics of the HOW. To do so would "remove the emperor's clothes" and reveal its nakedness. It would force RC to tell the world they think Jesus was born from Mary's side (the east gate (see John of Damascus for example)) or as a spirit through a wall, thus retaining virginity.

And yes, to discuss this, to introduce a question, about an RC de fide dogma is a mortal sin, the penalty of which RC believes will send a Christian to hell. As we are well aware, however, some of us do not belong to or believe in RC Church. "

How do you know ? Were you there ? You write as a two thousand year old Johnny -come- lately, try reading the writings of the early Christians who were there who actually knew the Blessed Virgin Mary the mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.

Good observation. Have you read John's epistles along with the Protoevangelium of James or Tertulian or Clement of Alexandria or the Trullo Council or John of Damascus or Valentinus or Marcion about the issue?

 

[Standing Up]

The earliest stories of the Virgin Birth scenario involve the east gate.

The Virgin Mary's Womb as Ezekiel's Closed Gate of the Messiah | Taylor Marshall

How about Adam's east gate, as a symbol Mary's east gate?

 

[bbbbbbb]

How about Adam's east gate, as a symbol Mary's east gate?

Well, I suppose one can make a case for the IC of Adam then.

 

[Defensor Christi]

I know RC hasn't defined the HOW. Of course they can't rule on the specifics of the HOW. To do so would "remove the emperor's clothes" and reveal its nakedness. It would force RC to tell the world they think Jesus was born from Mary's side (the east gate (see John of Damascus for example)) or as a spirit through a wall, thus retaining virginity.

And yes, to discuss this, to introduce a question, about an RC de fide dogma is a mortal sin, the penalty of which RC believes will send a Christian to hell. As we are well aware, however, some of us do not belong to or believe in RC Church.

Can't doesnt matter...won't is the key. If the Church will not define then anything discussed is merely opinion. Being a good Catholic boy, I dont see any point in arguing one way or the other...

Well, I suppose one can make a case for the IC of Adam then.

Adam was created without original sin...it would be the IC (immaculate creation)...

 

[Albion]

Well, I suppose one can make a case for the IC of Adam then.

You certainly can make a case for Mary's Mother, St. Ann. If it was so important that God be born of an ever-immaculate mother, it hardly makes sense that the Mother of God would have been born of an ordinary sinner herself.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You certainly can make a case for Mary's Mother, St. Ann. If it was so important that God be born of an ever-immaculate mother, it hardly makes sense that the Mother of God would have been born of an ordinary sinner herself.

Of course, but as you know, Catholic logic seems to extend to only one generation.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Of course, but as you know, Catholic logic seems to extend to only one generation.

Considering the Blessed Virgin carried the Lord God in her womb, I wouldnt look beyond her...however, I dont think it would make a difference (concerning the Virgin) one way or the other.

 

[SolomonVII]

IC is baseless myth raised to the level of infallible theology. I think it was in the POJ that her purity even involved her tootsies not touching the earth for years on end. That is a sweet thought, I guess, but totally unnecessary.

 

[Defensor Christi]

IC is baseless myth raised to the level of infallible theology.

Hmmmm, great I see this discussion has devolved into 3rd grade name calling...good indicator the debate has been won. Thanks!

 

[SolomonVII]

Hmmmm, great I see this discussion has devolved into 3rd grade name calling...good indicator the debate has been won. Thanks!

Show the history of the idea, if you dare. Even the Catholic Church notes that that this is not a historic idea.

It is an unnecessary theology. There is nothing about Mary that would make Jesus impure, whether or not she was immaculately conceived.

 

[Albion]

It is an unnecessary theology. There is nothing about Mary that would make Jesus impure, whether or not she was immaculately conceived.

That is indeed a key point to be made whenever this issue comes up...yet it usually does not.

Just as with the other Marian doctrines--the Assumption, ever-virgin, co-redeemer of the world, etc.--this is grounded in nothing more than the all-too human impulse to heap honors upon a revered personality, even to the point of absurdity.

Look at how we lionize some of our political figures after death, even those who were quite flawed persons in life. We completely make-over their history yet we (some of us, that is) think that the same wasn't done by people of an earlier time.

 

[Rick Otto]

Calling a name to accuse name calling.
Priceless.