The "holy place" Abomination of Desolation

Eloy Craft · Apr 12, 2018

CassiusCritzer said:
Thus the 3rd Temple might be constructed but never be holy.

Maybe that is why the anti-christ can occupy it. Just a thought.

Missgrundy · Apr 12, 2018

CassiusCritzer said:
Something has been on my thoughts for the last few years. I am a devout evangelical Christian and I have known Jesus practically my whole life. My earliest memories are praying to Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I have never ever turned away like others. I felt and feel an overwhelming love for Jesus and never doubted. Because of this I greatly enjoy studying the Bible.

Matthew 24 discusses a timeline of what must happen before the Abomination of Desolation. I do not want to argue because people have very firm ideas. What I pray is we can have an enlightened discussion can take place where led by the Holy Spirit, new ideas that are Biblicaly correct and supported by Scriptures will lead us into Truth.

I'm just an old man. I make no claims about being smarter than anyone else nor being more faithful. I have no pride about such things. And I want to discuss this amiably and with other devout Christians not with scoffers and atheists.

What did Jesus mean by the hagia? He did not specifically say Temple. It is presumed that the desecration will occur when the Antichrist ( Beast) initiates Beast worship in the holy place and or worshiping an animated graven image of the Beast. Then he institutes the mark of the Beast.

Now if we look at the Temple of Solomon, within it was a Veiled off area, and in the 1st Temple, the Ark of the Covenant was within and within that was the Tablets of the Ten Commandements. Animal sacrifices were made since the Presence of YHWH was within. At Yom Kippur, the high priest would go inside with blood to atone for the 12 Tribes of Israel and speak aloud the Name of God (YHWH) and offer up incense as a prayer.

When Jesus died on the cross, and said "It is finished" then the Veil was torn and by theology the Presence of YHWH left. According to tradition, this veil was four inches thick so it is not an accident.

In Hebrews 9 -10, Jesus has created a new covenant and is the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God while simultaneously the great high priest. And his body is the passage through the veil of the Most Holy Place.

Now after the Babylonian captivity and upon returning to Jerusalem, they rebuilt a 2nd Temple but had lost the Ark of the Covenant. Today the Ethiopian Orthodox Patriarch claim to have it. Regardless, the 2nd Temple did not have it, only a raised area.

Even if the Jews rebuilt a 3rd Temple, they do not have the Ark of the Covenant. And even IF they acquired it, the Presence of YHWH is not within. Leviticus 10 has a warning to even kindle unauthorized fire in a censer ie an incense burner specifically for YHWH. Two of Aaron's sons died trying that.

Note that some Jews claim that the Ark might be below ground where the Temple Mount is said to be. That is why some Orthodox Jews will not go there as they fear stepping upon,where the Ark might be.

If God's Presence is not within a new Holy of Holies, it cannot be profaned as it is not sanctified. And reinstituting animal sacrifice is unnecessary according to Hebrew 9 and 10. Therefore I doubt that the Abomination of Desolation means the 3rd Temple. I even doubt the 3rd Temple could be made holy. It could only be declared sacred by men.

In Matthew 24 Jesus says where the body (carcass) the eagles or some versions say vultures will gather.

What holy place today had a body? The Church of the Holy Sepulchre for within is the Tomb from which Jesus was resurrected. What if the Antichrist profanes the Tomb of Christ? You should know that after Saladin seized Jerusalem, a later caliph ruined a part of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and for over seven hundred years the damage existed and was not repaired until 2017.

Each year an annual event occurs where fire appears inside the Tomb of Jesus and the Patriarch ignites the Paschal Candle which represents the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And when this happens, some believers candles also ignite. I make no claims as to the authenticity. Strange bursts of lights have been captured on video as well.

What if the Tomb of Jesus is actually within the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and that is the holy place where the Abomination of Desolation takes place?

Revelation points to a Temple that is measured by the two witnesses, but it doesn't say what that is.

Thank you for critiquing what I wrote. I am not making any claims. Just pointing out my thoughts.

I have to pray for better understanding and rightful thinking what you said before I reply on it..

David Kent · Apr 12, 2018

Douggg said:
The prince who shall come from the people who destroyed the temple - that person will become the Antichrist, King of Israel (illegitimate). He will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year shmita cycle as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. The speech he gives has to be from the place of God's choosing - which I have talked to Jews about - and they consider the temple mount the place of God's choosing.

Which it can't be done until the muslims are gone from the temple mount. Which conincides with the 7 years in Ezekiel 39 following Gog/Magog. Which btw, is a 100% concrete chapter on when the 7 years take place because of the Armageddon feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

That theory is a no go on several fronts. One is the Pope is not qualified to be the Antichrist. And the other is to make that theory work, all the timeframes given in the end times prophecies have to be changed to years - when the text says days. And the 3 1/2 days in Revelation 11 is impossible to mean years.

It is not ten nations in Daniel 7, but ten kings of ONE kingdom, the fourth empire. The kingdom of the transgressors in Daniel 8:23, in the latter time of it. The EU has evolved through several stages, since it being founded by the treaties of Rome.

The EU has one more stage to go and that is to reform with ten leaders, with one leader over them.

All that is supposition and no evidence from scripture.

The ECF were more informed than you and it had not happened in their day, but it has happened since.

They knew that the let and hindrance in 2 Thess 2 were the Roman Empire and the Emperor, whys, because Paul told them. They knew that Rome would be overthrown by 10 kings because Daniel tells us, which it was. They knew that out of those 10 kings would come the antichrist, which he did.

Why do you reject the teaching of the whole non Catholic Church, from AD 1200 when the its full persecuting powers, that the Pope is Antichrist. See the Waldensian Treatise on Antichrist dated about AD 1200. See also the writings of John Huss, The Lollards, Luther, Calvin ("When you read that claims of Christ and on the other hand the claims of the pope, no one could doubt that the pope is antichrist even though he were a ten year old boy.") Zwingli, The Huguenots, The Camisards, Anglicans, Presbyterians and others. Saints and martyrs alike.

You like many others have been indoctrinated into the Jesuit teaching that the Antichrist is future which began in the late 16th. century and incorporated into much of protestantism from the 1820's which gathered pace with the publication of the Scofield bible in the early 20th. c. This giant con has infected much of the so called Christian church with its false teaching.

Douggg · Apr 12, 2018

David Kent said:
The ECF were more informed than you and it had not happened in their day, but it has happened since.

You are relying on your theologians.

David Kent said:
Why do you reject the teaching of the whole non Catholic Church, from AD 1200 when the its full persecuting powers, that the Pope is Antichrist. See the Waldensian Treatiseon Antichrist

Because eschatology wise - they were wrong concerning the Antichrist, beast, and thinking the Church had become Israel.

David Kent said:
All that is supposition and no evidence from scripture.

Precept upon precept.

John 4:25 Christ = the messiah
Mark 15:32 Christ = the messiah = the King of Israel
John 12:13 Christ = the messiah = the King of Israel = Jesus the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

"Anti"- meaning instead of and against - Christ = the messiah = the King of Israel = Jesus the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

What will make the person the Antichrist is that he will be anointed the King of Israel - instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel.

The Pope doesn't qualify to be the King of Israel

David Kent · Apr 12, 2018

[QUOTE="thesunisout, post: 72541191, member: 280842"]You missed somebody:

26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
ne that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [w
27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] orath] be poured out upon the desolate.[/QUOTE]

You have the wrong emphasis.

26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and shall be war; desolations are determined.

It was the pe the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the endople of the prince who were to destroy the temple. You make the prince to be the subject of the sentence, but it is not it is the people. so the HE in verse 27 can only refer back to Messiah, the prince. It was the people of Titus, the prince, who destroyed the temple against his orders, tragically fulfilling this prophecy LITERALLY

David Kent · Apr 12, 2018

Douggg said:
The Pope doesn't qualify to be the King of Israel

You are so misled. Antchrist will come out from the church, he is a false Christ as so callled head of the church. His very title declares this. Vicar of Christ, in place of Christ, means the same as Antichrist. One is Latin, the other Greek. It seem that what a 10 year old boy could see in the time of Calvin, many so called bible scholars cannot see today.

David Kent · Apr 12, 2018

thesunisout said:
Messiah is identified as a prince, it also mentions another prince, and the people thereof who destroyed the temple.

And was the temple destroyed? And is it still destroyed today?

Those who follow the false futurist teaching have to imaging a new temple to be built so it can be destroyed again.

Was the temple destroyed in AD 70? y/n
Did the people of the prince (Titus) who was to come destroy it? y/n

The great error of futurists is that they take a wonderful prophecy of the coming and work of our Saviour to be about some future infidel. A very gross and dangerous error.

David Kent · Apr 12, 2018

Douggg said:
What will make the person the Antichrist is that he will be anointed the King of Israel - instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel.
ophecy was looking forward the Christ as head of the Church.

The Pope doesn't qualify to be the King of Israel

You have a complete misunderstanding of Scripture. The whole of OT prophecies of Christ and the Church.

2 Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Futurists take that to be literal future temple, preterists take it to be the literal now destroyed temple. The ECF mostly took it quite correctly as the Church. They also taught that the temple in Revelation referred to the church. Why did they do that? Because the bible tells them.

Mt 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Mt 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

The temple he was speaking about was not the visible temple, but the literal temple, His Body.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ye, the church, are the temple of God. There is no other, and will be no other temple till Christ returns.

Unseen Real · Apr 12, 2018

I think the general confusion is over the supposed 70th week. This seems fanciful as all that Daniel said seems to have been historically accomplished. There is no 7 year tribulation and way too much noise seems to have been generated by pre-tribbers.
Perhaps we are instead looking for the times spoken of in Revelations. All fairly well documented in Matthew 24 by Yeshuah. If you read the account of Josephus, who does not appear to have even been a Christian, then the horrific events in ad 70 and the subsequent occurrences by the RCC (that 'died') and then was reborn by Mussolini's edicts, we might have a little more clarity. Perhaps we are looking for things to happen that have already occurred. So the items that do seem to be of utmost importance seem to be in The Revelations.

David Kent · Apr 12, 2018

Douggg said:
You are relying on your theologians.

And who are you relying on? False theologians like Darby and Scofield and Jesuits like Riberra. Belarmine, Walpole and Ben Ezra (Lacunza).

The church has not replaced Israel but is part of Israel as fellow heirs.

1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Believing Israel and Gentiles are builded together into the holy temple of the Lord. This chapter shows the gross error of Darby and those that follow him that Israel and the Church will always be separate.

CassiusCritzer · Apr 12, 2018

There will be many antichrists but one Antichrist. Anyone who opposes Christ is an antichrist. It's clear that in history some religious leaders actually acted as antichrists. Some may be good candidates for the Antichrist but only if they fulfill signs spoken of by Scripture.

Regardless let's not tear each other down even when we think our brother and sister in Christ is in error. The natural inclination is to presume we are right and the other is wrong. If this just turns into division then I would rather I never started the conversation.

jgr · Apr 12, 2018

The expression “the Antichrist”, with a capitalized “A”, invariably used to refer to a unique single future individual, is found nowhere in the KJV, NAS, or YLT translations. The expression “the antichrist”, with a decapitalized “a”, is found in the NAS and YLT. The scriptural composite definition is found in the following four verses in John's epistles, these from the KJV:

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Unlike the word or expression “trinity” or “the trinity”, which was coined and defined outside of scripture, the word or expression “antichrist” or “the antichrist”, is intra-scriptural, i.e. found within scripture, along with the accompanying composite definition seen in the above verses. Thus any interpretation or exegesis of this particular word or expression must adhere strictly to the information about it which scripture gives us, free of any private interpretations.

The two primary irreconcilabilities between a claimed unique single future individual “the Antichrist” and John's descriptions are:

1. Antichrist is not limited to a single individual, but is many. (1 John 2:18, 2 John 1:7)

2. Antichrist is not limited to a future individual, but was already present when John wrote. (1 John 2:18, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7)

Scripture thus does not identify any entity which uniquely qualifies as “the Antichrist” to the exclusion of any other entities which have or will manifest the characteristics of an antichrist as described by John. That is, scripture does not identify a "one and only Antichrist".

It is evident that, when the history of the true Christian Church is examined, she has suffered at the hands of many antichrists; and will undoubtedly continue to do so until Christ returns.

It is further evident that various eras in Christian Church history have seen the emergence and dominance of particular antichrists over those time periods. That of the apostate papacy of the Dark Ages is a cogent example. The ultimate success of the Reformation was due in no small part to the Reformers' declarations, often to the death, that the apostate papacy was antichrist. Various of the Reformers would at times use the expression “the Antichrist” to identify the apostate papacy as the predominant antichrist of that era. But they were also aware from John's descriptions in his epistles that there had been previous antichrists in the past, and would continue to be other antichrists to follow in the future.

In relation to antichrists, the Church's experiences may or will continue to unfold consistent with John's descriptions.

But those descriptions are not reconcilable with a unique single future individual “the Antichrist”.

Douggg · Apr 12, 2018

David Kent said:
And who are you relying on? False theologians like Darby and Scofield and Jesuits like Riberra. Belarmine, Walpole and Ben Ezra (Lacunza).

I doubt you will find any of them you listed make the distinction that the person is not longer the Antichrist when he becomes the beast. Nor that the role of the Antichrist is to be the King of Israel messiah instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel.

David Kent · Apr 12, 2018

Douggg said:
What will make the person the Antichrist is that he will be anointed the King of Israel - instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel.

Where on ever do you get that from. Certainly not scripture. God is the only one who can anoint the King of Israel, and he has, Jesus.

Douggg · Apr 12, 2018

David Kent said:
Where on ever do you get that from. Certainly not scripture. God is the only one who can anoint the King of Israel, and he has, Jesus.

I gave you the scriptures in my post #84, precept upon precept.

Who anointed Saul the King of Israel ? Who anointed David the King of Israel? Who anointed Solomon the King of Israel ? The two prophets, Samuel and Nathan. Who is an ends times prophet in Revelation that is associated with the arch villain?

Jesus is the rightful King of Israel. But the issue is that of the Antichrist.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Douggg · Apr 12, 2018

jgr said:
But those descriptions are not reconcilable with a unique single future individual “the Antichrist”.

Your argument makes about as much sense as there is not one "the" messiah, since messiah means anointed and there have been many many anointeds in the bible.

One verse is talking about Jesus.

John 4:
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

The other verse is talking about "name not known yet".

1John2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

jgr · Apr 12, 2018

Douggg said:
The other verse is talking about "name not known yet".

Speaking of making sense...

How could there be a name not known yet if there were already many of them, some undoubtedly the same? How would the name which was not yet known be distinguished from the names which already were known?

Douggg · Apr 12, 2018

jgr said:
Speaking of making sense...

How could there be a name not known yet if there were already many of them, some undoubtedly the same? How would the name which was not yet known be distinguished from the names which already were known?

No-one in the first century or centuries that follow are "the" Antichrist, whether you make it a capital A or a small a.

The names of other anointeds than Jesus were known long before Jesus. Saul was an anointed. David was an anointed. Solomon was an anointed.

Even them leading up to Jesus's birth did not know what the messiah's name would be. The angel informed Mary call him - Jesus.

The Jews who do not believe Jesus is "the" messiah, are looking for another as "the" messiah - and guess what? They don't know his name either. Of the person who will be "the" Antichrist.

BABerean2 · Apr 12, 2018

Douggg said:
No-one in the first century or centuries that follow are "the" Antichrist, whether you make it a capital A or a small a.

The names of other anointeds than Jesus were known long before Jesus. Saul was an anointed. David was an anointed. Solomon was an anointed.

Even them leading up to Jesus's birth did not know what the messiah's name would be. The angel informed Mary call him - Jesus.

The Jews who do not believe Jesus is "the" messiah, are looking for another as "the" messiah - and guess what? They don't know his name either. Of the person who will be "the" Antichrist.

There have been several Jews who were named as the Messiah.

Shabbetai Tsvi

Jacob Frank

Rabbi Schneerson, who died during modern times.

.

dougangel · Apr 12, 2018

Unseen Real said:
Perhaps we are looking for things to happen that have already occurred. So the items that do seem to be of utmost importance seem to be in The Revelations.

Revelation 19

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

The beast and the false prophet are destroyed at the 2nd Coming therefore it cannot of already occured.
They are there at the end of the church age.

Revelation 12

The Beast out of the Earth

11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[e] That number is 666.

The "holy place" Abomination of Desolation

Myth only points, Truth happened!

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