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The historicity of Adam

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I think the reason creationists are lampooned and misunderstood as well as not taken seriously is that the solid, rational creationists have been drowned out by guys like this.....

Listen to what this guy says the purpose of the Triceratops was! ROFL!!!

63 TBN Creation or evolution Dinosaurs - YouTube
 
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jckstraw72

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well his general idea that all things were made for the good of man is spot-on, and his comment that the world before the Fall had no death is also spot on. he speculates too far by saying the dinosaurs pulled Adam's wagon, but his basic idea is correct.

a big problem in Orthodoxy in America, on this issue, is simply misinformation. you can find so many clergy and laity saying the Fathers didn't read Genesis literally and that there's no theological reason why evolution and Orthodoxy should be incompatible. but this is just simply not true. this shows no awareness of what the Fathers and modern Saints have actually said. the disdain for Creationists w/in Orthodoxy is from ignorance and misinformation.
 
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MKJ

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I feel like we are talking past each other.
I've been saying from the beginning that the just objection of those that have doubts about the idea of the evolution of all things, including human beings, is NOT against science in general, but against the assumptions and conclusions of what is popular in science today.

When you refer to the stability of the laws of nature, I certainly agree that they are stable to our observation today. I complain about the assumption that there can be no variables that would alter the calculations and conclusions. And I do NOT say that the variable is a "going wrong"; if God began a process, that would be a turning point, the process acted on by an external Force, and it would be going right, not wrong. The person who simply continued following a calculation past that point (into an imaginary past) would be in error, though a quite understandable one.

I understand that ideas can be persuasive, but a persuasive idea can still be wrong. And that is my point - that the evidence is being INTERPRETED via assumptions and calculations. I accept the evidence. I think it can be interpreted wrongly. In the justice system it is called circumstantial evidence. It may be right - coincidentally. But it may be a drastically wrong interpretation. Just because the silhouette in my earlier example LOOKS like a murder in progress does not make it so. The curtain and light behind it are real, as are the shadows. It is the interpretation that can prove wrong, even radically, though understandably so.

And so, we may examine theories. I say that our danger is in forgetting that the theory is a theory, that it is in treating a theory like an unquestionable fact. It is not that the theory is untenable; it is that we are condemned for questioning it, and for continuing to doubt even after we have received the answers. It is a reversal of what our attitudes should be towards faith and the sciences, respectively. We are now expected to doubt our faith, but never, ever, to doubt the scientist, the new priest of our time.

And with that, I think I have largely answered the comments on Chesterton as well. The tests are still subject to interpretation of evidence based in assumptions. And that will still apply, no matter HOW many bones you find.

I have not even begun to defend the idea of special creation of man by God - as man, and not amoeba; the rejection of human evolution (and I do reject it). My only concern hitherto has been the rejection of the idea that Christians who doubt modern popular science are necessarily unreasonable; that ideas such as intelligent design CAN be intelligently held, despite the furious ridicule heaped on them by "the scientific community", (really only a percentage of vocal scientists, such as Richard Dawkins and Stephen Hawking) mostly enemies of faith.

All theories in all subjects are interpretation of evidence. Theology, science, philosophy, history....

No, people are not being unreasonable to say that theories may be unsure. That is why in all of these subjects there is a dialectic and exchange of ideas involved.

But as far as any particular theory - yes, people may well be unreasonable in rejecting it - often people reject things for foolish reasons. Especially if their rejection of that theory is not consistant with how they treat other theories. If the level of evidence you demand for one set of beliefs in science is much higher than what you demand in a historical discussion, that is unreasonable. If you dismiss a theory without understanding it well or looking at the evidence or on the basis of misunderstanding it, that is unreasonable. If your reasons for dismissing a theory are simply illogical, that is unreasonable. A particular theory needs to be rejected specifically, not by saying all knowledge is unsure, unless you want to take the approach of a Cynic, who is assuredly not going to be a Christian.

As far as variables we do not know about causing nature to operate differently in the past - the likelihood of this in some areas of study is not high. In others it is more probable such a thing could occur. But in most cases, if that were to happen it would actually leave visible evidence. If radioactive decay were to behave differently for some period of time, it would leave other evidence besides getting the wrong dates when using it for dating.

I have to say I am always doubtful when people use that line of thought, that they really believe it - no one actually acts ike they believe it when it counts. The reason is that it would not be true only about the past - it would equally apply to the future. So only on the basis that there might be an unknown variable that caused an important change in basic natural processes and also left no evidence, people are willing to reject dating methods. (Something with very little practical effect on their daily life.) On the other hand, the fact that the basic processes could change because of an unknown variable does not stop them from putting their family on an airplane, or taking a Tylenol, or planting a field of wheat to grow next year. Yet if the plane falls out of the sky, the pill is suddenly poisonous, or the wheat fails to grow, there could be real consequences. And we would have no chance of knowing if such a thing were going to happen in the future - there would be no sign, as in the past.
 
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Whenever I debate evolution and things get intense, I always go to the Tylenol defense....:p

All theories in all subjects are interpretation of evidence. Theology, science, philosophy, history....

No, people are not being unreasonable to say that theories may be unsure. That is why in all of these subjects there is a dialectic and exchange of ideas involved.

But as far as any particular theory - yes, people may well be unreasonable in rejecting it - often people reject things for foolish reasons. Especially if their rejection of that theory is not consistant with how they treat other theories. If the level of evidence you demand for one set of beliefs in science is much higher than what you demand in a historical discussion, that is unreasonable. If you dismiss a theory without understanding it well or looking at the evidence or on the basis of misunderstanding it, that is unreasonable. If your reasons for dismissing a theory are simply illogical, that is unreasonable. A particular theory needs to be rejected specifically, not by saying all knowledge is unsure, unless you want to take the approach of a Cynic, who is assuredly not going to be a Christian.

As far as variables we do not know about causing nature to operate differently in the past - the likelihood of this in some areas of study is not high. In others it is more probable such a thing could occur. But in most cases, if that were to happen it would actually leave visible evidence. If radioactive decay were to behave differently for some period of time, it would leave other evidence besides getting the wrong dates when using it for dating.

I have to say I am always doubtful when people use that line of thought, that they really believe it - no one actually acts ike they believe it when it counts. The reason is that it would not be true only about the past - it would equally apply to the future. So only on the basis that there might be an unknown variable that caused an important change in basic natural processes and also left no evidence, people are willing to reject dating methods. (Something with very little practical effect on their daily life.) On the other hand, the fact that the basic processes could change because of an unknown variable does not stop them from putting their family on an airplane, or taking a Tylenol, or planting a field of wheat to grow next year. Yet if the plane falls out of the sky, the pill is suddenly poisonous, or the wheat fails to grow, there could be real consequences. And we would have no chance of knowing if such a thing were going to happen in the future - there would be no sign, as in the past.
 
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No kidding! Rus and Meghan have worn me out! I feel like the Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner after reading these debates! Let's just have a post that says:

YES

or

NO! :p

So, WAS Adam a real historical person?
 
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jckstraw72

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jckstraw72

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So, it's just an issue of whether he was an ensouled hominid or a post animal custom job?

yup, and was he the only human (besides Eve), or was he chosen to represent a population?
 
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truthseeker32

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a big problem in Orthodoxy in America, on this issue, is simply misinformation. you can find so many clergy and laity saying the Fathers didn't read Genesis literally and that there's no theological reason why evolution and Orthodoxy should be incompatible. but this is just simply not true. this shows no awareness of what the Fathers and modern Saints have actually said. the disdain for Creationists w/in Orthodoxy is from ignorance and misinformation.
I actually think that Orthodoxy in America is one of the places that creationism is most prevalent. Orthodox Christians in the UK, Canada, and Russia seem to be more open to evolution.

I think the main question --regardless of one's own opinion on the matter-- is whether or not certain evolutionary ideas are compatible with Orthodoxy, or in other words whether the views of the ECFs on the age of the earth and Genesis should be categorized as pious opinion or dogma. I personally see no reason that it would fall into the latter category.
 
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jckstraw72

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I actually think that Orthodoxy in America is one of the places that creationism is most prevalent. Orthodox Christians in the UK, Canada, and Russia seem to be more open to evolution.

I think the main question --regardless of one's own opinion on the matter-- is whether or not certain evolutionary ideas are compatible with Orthodoxy, or in other words whether the views of the ECFs on the age of the earth and Genesis should be categorized as pious opinion or dogma. I personally see no reason that it would fall into the latter category.

the thing is - if it were pious opinion then we could expect to see a variety of opinions - but we don't. i have literally never seen even one Father who did not believe in the historical reality of Genesis. and again, the Fathers themselves tell us that they are giving the teachings of the Church, and not the wisdom of the world, or their opinion, and they continually warn AGAINST dismissing the literal reality of Genesis. They tell us that it is dangerous to do so.

i was talking to Met. Jonah about this a few years ago, and he said the exact opposite of you - that in the Orthodox countries its no problem for most people to accept Orthodox young earth creationism - but its here in America that it's a hard sell. that's been my experience in my travels, limited though they be. if you Google Fr. Seraphim's name in Orthodox languages, you'll have no trouble finding Greek, Russia, Bulgarian, Romanian, etc pages extolling the virtues of his book on Genesis. i think that's probably in large part because in those countries they have their own great Saints and elders who say the exact same thing as him.
 
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jckstraw72

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I must admit I personally struggle with the idea that God planned things in such a way that one person's sin screws everyone else over. It seems like it would be better to let everyone succeed or fall based on their own choice.

well, we do all have our own choice. the injustice of being born into sin and death because of Adam's sin is balanced out by the injustice of the sinless and deathless God dying on the Cross, and we all have our own choice of choosing God, by virtue of the Cross and Resurrection, or not.
 
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MKJ

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No kidding! Rus and Meghan have worn me out! I feel like the Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner after reading these debates! Let's just have a post that says:

YES

or

NO! :p

Well, if we are giving our personal opinions, I would say yes, he was a real person, not just as a representative of a population.

That's obviously not an Orthodox opinion though.
 
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Nicely-put:thumbsup:

well, we do all have our own choice. the injustice of being born into sin and death because of Adam's sin is balanced out by the injustice of the sinless and deathless God dying on the Cross, and we all have our own choice of choosing God, by virtue of the Cross and Resurrection, or not.
 
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truthseeker32

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well, we do all have our own choice. the injustice of being born into sin and death because of Adam's sin is balanced out by the injustice of the sinless and deathless God dying on the Cross, and we all have our own choice of choosing God, by virtue of the Cross and Resurrection, or not.
Except that seems like holding that it is okay for you to let your son poison the local water source because you have an antidote for the poison. Wouldn't it be better to just warn people to stay away from the poison in the first place?
 
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jckstraw72

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Except that seems like holding that it is okay for you to let your son poison the local water source because you have an antidote for the poison. Wouldn't it be better to just warn people to stay away from the poison in the first place?

well God has warned people through their consciences, through the Law and Prophets, through the seeds of the Word in other religions, and especially through His Incarnate Son and through His continuing presence in the Church.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Except that seems like holding that it is okay for you to let your son poison the local water source because you have an antidote for the poison. Wouldn't it be better to just warn people to stay away from the poison in the first place?

He also warned Adam
 
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truthseeker32

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He also warned Adam
I know you believe this, and I respect that, but as an outsider I don't make the a priori assumption that Adam was real. The biggest reason for this is, as I previously stated, is I have a hard time seeing why God would arrange things in such a way that one person's sin would throw him and the billions of humans that would follow into a world of suffering and inclination towards sin. In what other situation do we see it as good when someone else has to suffer the consequences of another person's decision?

I also don't think Adam knew the consequences his actions would have. Would you eat of the forbidden fruit if you knew the results that followed?

It makes a lot more sense to me that A) God would have arranged things in such a manner that every human gets the same chance Adam got, the opportunity to choose for or against him without the inclination towards evil that resulted from the fall or B) the story is primarily an allegory about what happens to the individual who chooses evil.

I do recognize, though, that I am just one imperfect, fallible human being, but I have no choice but to believe what I can't help but believe. Maybe someday God will show me the errors of my ways.
 
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Lukaris

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My 2 cents to Truthseeker,
I posted earlier that I do believe in a universe that is billions of years old but that science only eventually leads us to death. Jesus Christ is salvation unto eternal life & the Trinity who has created us has worked out this fallen existence to save us. I cannot even claim to fully understand how I can intellectually reconcile this & I understand how you feel. It is the faith & hope in our Lord's salvation to all of us that ultimately calls our conscience to account & allows us to share this hope for anyone but always taking the judgement into account.
 
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