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The historicity of Adam

MKJ

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I know you believe this, and I respect that, but as an outsider I don't make the a priori assumption that Adam was real. The biggest reason for this is, as I previously stated, is I have a hard time seeing why God would arrange things in such a way that one person's sin would throw him and the billions of humans that would follow into a world of suffering and inclination towards sin. In what other situation do we see it as good when someone else has to suffer the consequences of another person's decision?

I also don't think Adam knew the consequences his actions would have. Would you eat of the forbidden fruit if you knew the results that followed?

It makes a lot more sense to me that A) God would have arranged things in such a manner that every human gets the same chance Adam got, the opportunity to choose for or against him without the inclination towards evil that resulted from the fall or B) the story is primarily an allegory about what happens to the individual who chooses evil.

I do recognize, though, that I am just one imperfect, fallible human being, but I have no choice but to believe what I can't help but believe. Maybe someday God will show me the errors of my ways.

I understand why you feel that way - it seems a bit like being punished because your sister did something bad.

Strangely, when I think about this I always find myself first thinking about something I read before I was a Christian, reading about Buddhism - the idea that we are mutually interdependent and that the goal is not personal enlightenment, but the liberation of all.

I think there are similar ideas present in Christianity - we do not exist only as individuals, but our individuality is defined and in part created by our relation to others around us. We exist as much as a part of a family, part of a community, as we do as a single person. We are by nature beings in community - like bees. And in fact all of nature is really brought into that idea - we are not totally separate from that either. The Fall, the communion of saints, how we understand the Church and family life and the state - all take from this assumption that we are people in community.

If that is really so, it is inevitable that what happens to other will impact all of us.

So I think your question would really have to be refined to say, why did God create us as creatures in community, interdependent with each other and even with the wider creation?

One answer might be that creating unrelated individuals would have to mean each of us was a sort of totally separate creation or universe. That seems a lonely proposition to me.

Another might be that it is more conductive to love. As the Buddhists say (to bring this round to where i started), this state of affairs means that we have to have cultivate compassion in ourselves and our communities.
 
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rusmeister

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I like the Idea of Adam and Eve representing the fall of man (humainty) rather than just the fall of a single man.

Only it really WAS the Fall of a single man and a single woman, the results of which were passed on to all of their descendents.
 
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rusmeister

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I know you believe this, and I respect that, but as an outsider I don't make the a priori assumption that Adam was real. The biggest reason for this is, as I previously stated, is I have a hard time seeing why God would arrange things in such a way that one person's sin would throw him and the billions of humans that would follow into a world of suffering and inclination towards sin. In what other situation do we see it as good when someone else has to suffer the consequences of another person's decision?

I also don't think Adam knew the consequences his actions would have. Would you eat of the forbidden fruit if you knew the results that followed?

It makes a lot more sense to me that A) God would have arranged things in such a manner that every human gets the same chance Adam got, the opportunity to choose for or against him without the inclination towards evil that resulted from the fall or B) the story is primarily an allegory about what happens to the individual who chooses evil.

I do recognize, though, that I am just one imperfect, fallible human being, but I have no choice but to believe what I can't help but believe. Maybe someday God will show me the errors of my ways.

God doesn't "arrange" our bad choices.
Is it "fair" to the child of fetal alcohol syndrome or HIV that they inherit something extremely undesirable from their parents? Of course not. But it is a reality that we have to deal with.
Is knowledge of consequences a prerequisite for suffering? Of course not.
You are appealing to a concept of "fairness" and trying to pin the blame on God for the consequences of our bad choices. And yet we see in real life, in ordinary situations, we understand how consequences can be natural and legitimate without either foreknowledge or (our concept of) justice.

So you can stick with your A-B dichotomy, but it has no relationship to the real world. God is dealing with and has dealt with (C), the consequences of the original bad choice, which was Adam's, and not God's.

Oh, and MKJ's
One answer might be that creating unrelated individuals would have to mean each of us was a sort of totally separate creation or universe. That seems a lonely proposition to me
is pretty good.
 
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I think it's interesting you say this, Meghan. I had no idea Buddhism was the launching place for you, too. For me, I got interesting in religion, spirituality, theology, the entire "why am I here?" stuff with Buddhism in high school. My childhood was going to Mass a few times a year AT BEST. I wasn't grounded in my faith. I went to Thailand and China, and my journey there with my family was powerful for me. I was hugely into Buddhism before going. Imagine a teenager with a library full of D.T. Suzuki, Walpola Rahula, John Blofeld, Edward Conze, Christmas Humphries, the Dhammapada, various Sutras, the Jataka Tales, on and on....that was me. I voraciously ate up Buddhist writings and history. I was into it. I remember my mom looking at me like I was NUTS when, on my SAT exams under "religion" I put "Buddhist." She wasn't happy.

I think my time looking at Buddhism was ultimately helpful and a cobblestone I had to step on to get to Holy Orthodoxy. Just like Manicheism, Neo-Platonism, and other traditions were essential steps to Christianity for Augustine, I think we all find our way in unique paths.

I understand why you feel that way - it seems a bit like being punished because your sister did something bad.

Strangely, when I think about this I always find myself first thinking about something I read before I was a Christian, reading about Buddhism - the idea that we are mutually interdependent and that the goal is not personal enlightenment, but the liberation of all.

I think there are similar ideas present in Christianity - we do not exist only as individuals, but our individuality is defined and in part created by our relation to others around us. We exist as much as a part of a family, part of a community, as we do as a single person. We are by nature beings in community - like bees. And in fact all of nature is really brought into that idea - we are not totally separate from that either. The Fall, the communion of saints, how we understand the Church and family life and the state - all take from this assumption that we are people in community.

If that is really so, it is inevitable that what happens to other will impact all of us.

So I think your question would really have to be refined to say, why did God create us as creatures in community, interdependent with each other and even with the wider creation?

One answer might be that creating unrelated individuals would have to mean each of us was a sort of totally separate creation or universe. That seems a lonely proposition to me.

Another might be that it is more conductive to love. As the Buddhists say (to bring this round to where i started), this state of affairs means that we have to have cultivate compassion in ourselves and our communities.
 
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buzuxi02

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Regardless on the topic of evolution and human anthropology, God has given us the story of Adam and Eve as the divinely inspired account to ponder upon. A simple story that various cultures and peoples of differing ages and regardless of their education level, can look upon and understand the human struggle. We cannot use theology to dissect evolution or the big bang because they dont include the invisible spiritual realm. The spiritual reality is not considered in the scientific method, its based upon a different model
 
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truthseeker32

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Is it "fair" to the child of fetal alcohol syndrome or HIV that they inherit something extremely undesirable from their parents? Of course not.
Exactly, so why did God allow a world where humans must endure the horrendous sufferings placed upon them by others? More importantly, why does God allow all humanity to live an existence where they are more inclined to sin than do good and then blame them for their transgressions?

It seems like we are worshiping the guy who saved us from the fire, but the problem is He is responsible for the fire in the first place! You may say "but it was Adam, not God, that started the fire!" however you would be overlooking Adam's infantile ignorance. If I gave a kid a box of matches and just stood by and watched as he burned things down I would be considered a monster. Why, then, is God off the hook?
 
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truthseeker32

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God: Hey Moses...

Moses: Hey God!

God: Ok, Moses I want to tell you something, and it's kind of a Big deal so we'll have to get a few things straight first. Is that ok?

Moses: sure thing

God: First I want to tell you about this thing called "History" that hasn't been invented yet....

Moses: Ok, what's history?

God: "History" is a way of talking about events where each aspect of the story conveys the literal, face value, facts and events. There is no mythic language, there is little role for symbolism, there is no chaiastic reworking of the structure, poetic parallelism, or creative redaction of other peoples works or myths .

Moses: That sounds really boring! How would anyone ever communicate truth if all they were able to do is list facts!

God: I know it sounds boring... but it can actually be really interesting, and useful for helping people create honest pictures of peoples and cultures that are not their own, or to reconnect people to their own cultural history.

Moses: Ok God, I'll take your word for it... so what do you want to tell me in this genre called "history"?

God: I want to tell you this history of how the earth was made...

Moses: Just the facts?

God: Just the facts!

Moses: ok I'm listening...

God: I made the earth in 6 days... each day I made something new.... light, then air and sea... then dry ground... then the moon sun and stars.... then fish and birds... then ground animals and people like you... all said and done it took me 144 hours.

Moses: Are you sure that's history? It kind of sounds like some of the myths I've heard around from some of my neighbors, are you sure you didn't take the myths and language that people here know and understand and present part of your own identity in a subversive and imaginative reweaving of the cultic mythology of the region?

God: Nope... I wanted to give you the facts in a genre that you wouldn't understand that is bereft of the structures and languages that you use to determine meaning in a text...

Moses:.... um no offense but... that's kind of silly God

source: TheOrant: Response to a Young Earth Creationist...
 
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jckstraw72

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God: "History" is a way of talking about events where each aspect of the story conveys the literal, face value, facts and events. There is no mythic language, there is little role for symbolism, there is no chaiastic reworking of the structure, poetic parallelism, or creative redaction of other peoples works or myths .

Genesis has most of this (except that it's actually Moses' account of what he saw in Divine vision - and not a redaction). It's just that the YEC recognizes this, whereas the evolutionist must throw away the literal. The YEC can harmonize many layers of meaning, the evolutionist cannot.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Exactly, so why did God allow a world where humans must endure the horrendous sufferings placed upon them by others? More importantly, why does God allow all humanity to live an existence where they are more inclined to sin than do good and then blame them for their transgressions?

It seems like we are worshiping the guy who saved us from the fire, but the problem is He is responsible for the fire in the first place! You may say "but it was Adam, not God, that started the fire!" however you would be overlooking Adam's infantile ignorance. If I gave a kid a box of matches and just stood by and watched as he burned things down I would be considered a monster. Why, then, is God off the hook?

Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? He doesn't...we do. Free will means FREE WILL. We and others suffer the consequences of what WE do. Give a kid matches...sure. Different than telling the child what will happen if they play with matches. Matches can do good (warmth) or evil (burn)...the choice is OURS. A gun can protect or murder...however it is the human behind the gun that chooses...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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truthseeker32

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Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? He doesn't...we do.
If I see a gang raping a poor young woman is it okay for me to stand by and do nothing except say "hey, I have no obligation to help the poor young lady. I'm not doing anything wrong. It is those men who are at fault. They are misusing their free will."? I'd say absolutely not. So why, then, is God off the hook?

Beyond this there are many examples where evils happen completely independent of how someone exercises their free will. Natural disasters come to mind.
 
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Bottom line is this, Seeker...and I'll try to keep it simple and succinct:

God has three choices: not make the human race at all, make a human race that is pre-programmed to only do good and thus be a bunch of phony automatons who cannot love because they're forced to, or He can make us with free will so we can truly love.

He chose option 3.

Love can't exist if it is forced. We are not forced to love with a theistic microchip in our brains. Would you want your wife to be a Stepford Wife who has no choice but to cherish you or would you like her to CHOOSE loving you? Out of all the men in the world, she chooses YOU! That is love, mate. And she COULD cheat on you, but she doesn't! She could leave you or lie to you, or be something she's not, but she chooses to love you. That is real. Stepford Wives aren't.

In the bigger picture, we have to have free will to choose God because God wants us on a path to theosis, to cling closely and know what True Love is! God is the full essence of Love with a capital L!

But if God is not going to make us Stepford Humans, He has to allow choice. And choice allows evil.

So when you say you hate Hitler, Pol Pot, Osama Bin Laden, the guys gang-raping a woman that you mention, don't blame God for being an uncaring bystander, blame the Prince of Lies, Satan, who saw to it that you fell into Sin and are deluded, weak, and who brought ideas of rape into the world.

God isn't uncaring about a woman suffering such trauma. As a mere human, how do you know what graces He will send her? How can you know? And how can you know what strength she will gain, what blessings she will give to other people, and so many other things...??

And when tragedies like this occur, it's UP TO ALL OF US to love this woman, care for her, counsel her, pray with and for her, cherish her as a gift of God, hope for her, and heal her. The only other alternatives are that the girl never existed to begin with OR that the men around her are robots and she is as well and none of us, including the girl, ever had or will have the chance to truly love AT ALL in this life or the next....

I think you're coming from an unreasonable vantage point. You're expecting God to create us with free will to choose love AND YET you also want Him to come to the rescue of every accident, domestic disturbance, fight, war, moment of cruelty, rape, fire, or broken nail. God expects us to take care of each other, love one another, and His Church is here to do as much as we can to be salt on this Earth. God is not a Hercules or Superman to the rescue. We can't have our deity being Kal-El or Batman. Maybe God calls on US to take care of each other?

I'm called to think of the rape of Dinah in Scripture. Do you remember that? What happens when the sons of Jacob take it upon their self to avenge their sister? Look at what ensues.....God is mysterious. Trying to put him in a box or fashion Him into what we'd like Him to be is the beginning of walking away from wisdom. It's a fruitless endeavor.

We operate by faith, walk looking up and not around, and we try to copy our Master by loving the least among us and forgiving....

If I see a gang raping a poor young woman is it okay for me to stand by and do nothing except say "hey, I have no obligation to help the poor young lady. I'm not doing anything wrong. It is those men who are at fault. They are misusing their free will."? I'd say absolutely not. So why, then, is God off the hook?

Beyond this there are many examples where evils happen completely independent of how someone exercises their free will. Natural disasters come to mind.
 
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inconsequential

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If I see a gang raping a poor young woman is it okay for me to stand by and do nothing except say "hey, I have no obligation to help the poor young lady. I'm not doing anything wrong. It is those men who are at fault. They are misusing their free will."? I'd say absolutely not. So why, then, is God off the hook?

Personally, I'd shoot them but then, that's just me. :blush:
 
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rusmeister

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Seeker, have you read CS Lewis's "The Problem of Pain"? It helped me tremendously on this sort of question.
The basic short answer is that love and life are worth the risk of death and suffering; that existence is better than non-existence, that your desire that there be no suffering is better than no desire whatsoever, and if we don't exist, then there will be no "we" to desire anything.
But it's much better to read the book than agonize for pages on a thread about an issue that has clear and thought-out answers.
 
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AndrewEOC

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Just finished Bouteneff's Beginnings. I'm glad someone pushed me to read the whole thing! Some notes I took...

1.) I thought Bouteneff did a very good job presenting the complexities of Patristic exegesis, and supplying their context in time and space. To let sources speak for themselves is important, as is supplying background context, and Bouteneff's presentation of both was objective and judicial.

2.) The book demonstrates with due evidence that one trend in the Patristic exegetical approach to Genesis was decisively christological. In other words, Christ is essential to how we understand Genesis. To this end, St. Irenaeus argued that "Christ- the crucified Christ- is the one by whom we rightly read the Scriptures" and that the crucified and risen Christ actually precedes Adam, so that Adam is "made in the image of the incarnate Christ (AH 4.33.4)." The exegesis of other fathers is characterized by a similar typology.

3.) An exception to this christological focus is Theophilus of Antioch, who argues for the strictly factual character of Genesis. Theophilus uses this argument as a rebuttal to polytheistic mythology, and with an understanding that "myth" carried a connotation of falsity or duplicity.

4.) The later Cappadocian fathers resisted radical allegory, e.g. the type promoted by Origen which disassociated Genesis entirely from any grounding in physical reality (exasperated, Basil comments that "Grass is grass!") and "where the original word bears no perception to its alleged true (spiritual) meaning." Nevertheless spiritual edification remains the ultimate goal for Basil and he "interpreted more literally, typologically, practically, or allegorically depending on his hearers and on the needs of the moment." The biblical narrative, he insists, is "not about physical science"; in fact, "it is enough to say, 'God created heaven and earth.'"

5.) An important distinction is drawn between allegory and typology. On the nature of typology there seems to be little consensus: Melito of Sardis "spoke consistently of the obsolescence of the type," while Tertullian believed that "something used figuratively to express some other thing must have a prior existence for itself (De res. 30)." Bouteneff aptly points out, however, that "types can be found in entirely fictional persons and events, even characters in parables. And in the liturgical and prayer life of the church, figures from historical chronicles often exist side by side with manifestly fictional ones. A fourth-century prayer attributed to Basil and used in the Orthodox Church to this day features the line 'Receive me, O Christ, who loves all, as you received the prostitute, the thief, the publican, and the prodigal.' The first two appear in the NT as participants in Christ's early life; the second two are characters in his parables. But they are invoked together in one breath, playing identical roles in evoking a single attitude of prayer."

There is much more to discuss in the book but this is all I have time to comment on for now. I apologize if what I wrote is excessive or confusing, but having finally read the entire book, I once again highly, highly recommend it. It will give you much to consider, especially if you are new to this topic!
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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If I see a gang raping a poor young woman is it okay for me to stand by and do nothing except say "hey, I have no obligation to help the poor young lady. I'm not doing anything wrong. It is those men who are at fault. They are misusing their free will."? I'd say absolutely not. So why, then, is God off the hook?

Beyond this there are many examples where evils happen completely independent of how someone exercises their free will. Natural disasters come to mind.

That is YOUR CHOICE to stand there and do nothing. It was also the CHOICE of the rapists to rape. It is our CHOICE whether to love God and follow His Way or CHOOSE evil. Luke 10:25-37

If God did everything for you, you would not have free will...
 
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AndrewEOC

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To continue from my previous post (#177)...

Just finished Bouteneff's Beginnings. I'm glad someone pushed me to read the whole thing! Some notes I took...

1.) I thought Bouteneff did a very good job presenting the complexities of Patristic exegesis, and supplying their context in time and space. To let sources speak for themselves is important, as is supplying background context, and Bouteneff's presentation of both was objective and judicial.

2.) The book demonstrates with due evidence that one trend in the Patristic exegetical approach to Genesis was decisively christological. In other words, Christ is essential to how we understand Genesis. To this end, St. Irenaeus argued that "Christ- the crucified Christ- is the one by whom we rightly read the Scriptures" and that the crucified and risen Christ actually precedes Adam, so that Adam is "made in the image of the incarnate Christ (AH 4.33.4)." The exegesis of other fathers is characterized by a similar typology.

3.) An exception to this christological focus is Theophilus of Antioch, who argues for the strictly factual character of Genesis. Theophilus uses this argument as a rebuttal to polytheistic mythology, and with an understanding that "myth" carried a connotation of falsity or duplicity.

4.) The later Cappadocian fathers resisted radical allegory, e.g. the type promoted by Origen which disassociated Genesis entirely from any grounding in physical reality (exasperated, Basil comments that "Grass is grass!") and "where the original word bears no perception to its alleged true (spiritual) meaning." Nevertheless spiritual edification remains the ultimate goal for Basil and he "interpreted more literally, typologically, practically, or allegorically depending on his hearers and on the needs of the moment." The biblical narrative, he insists, is "not about physical science"; in fact, "it is enough to say, 'God created heaven and earth.'"

5.) An important distinction is drawn between allegory and typology. On the nature of typology there seems to be little consensus: Melito of Sardis "spoke consistently of the obsolescence of the type," while Tertullian believed that "something used figuratively to express some other thing must have a prior existence for itself (De res. 30)." Bouteneff aptly points out, however, that "types can be found in entirely fictional persons and events, even characters in parables. And in the liturgical and prayer life of the church, figures from historical chronicles often exist side by side with manifestly fictional ones. A fourth-century prayer attributed to Basil and used in the Orthodox Church to this day features the line 'Receive me, O Christ, who loves all, as you received the prostitute, the thief, the publican, and the prodigal.' The first two appear in the NT as participants in Christ's early life; the second two are characters in his parables. But they are invoked together in one breath, playing identical roles in evoking a single attitude of prayer."

There is much more to discuss in the book but this is all I have time to comment on for now. I apologize if what I wrote is excessive or confusing, but having finally read the entire book, I once again highly, highly recommend it. It will give you much to consider, especially if you are new to this topic!

6.) Regarding a six-day sequence of creation, Bouteneff describes the ways in which Basil took this "quite literally, drawing implications for what can be seen empirically" according to "ideas about the natural world [that] are often dependent on Aristotle." Nevertheless, Basil "insists at the beginning that neither his homilies nor the scriptural account are about science. Instead, the details of the narrative show that 'the world was not devised at random or to no purpose, but to contribute to some useful end and to the great advantage of all beings...' (In Hex. 1.6). ... For him, the primary message of creation in all its beauty and order is that the Craftsman is great beyond measure." Thus, while Basil "appears to take for granted that the days of creation were twenty-four hour periods, yet he follows with a discussion of ages and eras: 'Therefore, whether you say 'day' or 'age' you will express the same idea. If, then, that condition should be called 'day,' it is one and not many, or if to my should be named 'age,' it would be unique and not manifold. In order, therefore, to lead our thoughts to a future life, he called that day 'one,' which is an image of eternity; the beginning of days, the contemporary of Light, the holy Lord's day, the day honored by the Resurrection of the Lord.'" Irenaeus, meanwhile, as observed earlier, upsets a standard chronological interpretation in favor of christological typology.

7.) Bouteneff ties this to the typological idea of recapitulation, wherein "Christ joined the end to the beginning, recapitulating all nations, languages, and generations in himself. ...The nature of recapitulation, which puts Christ at the center of the human trajectory from creation to salvation, is therefore such that Iraneaus can speak of Adam as being made in the image of the Incarnate Christ (AH 4.33.4)." This "trajectory of thinking, which cannily stands temporal chronology on its head, was definitive for the Patristic era and right on through the fourteenth century in Nicholas Cabasilas, who puts it this way: 'It was for the New Man that human nature was created at the beginning...It was not the old Adam who was the model for the new, but the new Adam for the old...' ...Typology must be understood against the backdrop of this reconfiguration of history, which, then, began not in some calendrically datable time five thousand, six thousand, or even 13.7 billion years ago, but with Christ and his incarnation, and, even more, with his passion. Indeed, to the extent we dwell with the fathers in this perspective, the significance of the age of the world is entirely limited to the sphere of science and bears no theological significance whatsoever."

8.) The use of Adam, Bouteneff notes, was initially genealogical. Yet "for the Scriptural authors as well as some of the Second Temple writers examined here, Adam played the role alternately of first patriarch and, more commonly, of first human- and, as such, a symbol of 'human nature.' The latter concept- nascent, at most, in the Bible- grew in significance as the early Christian writers elaborated on Adam as forefather. Yet still more than being identified as originator and therefore a symbol of humanity, Adam- now not so much as genealogical forebear but as a kind of emblem-comes to stand for fallen humanity. ... From Paul onward- even if the Gospel authors did not fully catch on- Adam represents humanity of the old dispensation; he is the old man that is to be put off in order to put on the new man, Christ [this returns to the notion of christological typology]. ...In Patristic and liturgical expression alike, "Adam," as a term taken on to to own, primarily signified humanity redeemed in Christ."

9.) A final note on the earlier-discussed nature of typology: "Tertullian's insistence on the concrete historicity of the type was unique up to his time. It found further expression later among the Antiochene exegetes, notably Diodore of Tarsus and Theodore of Mopsuestia, who were concerned with the validity of the OT on its own terms and not solely on a collective prefiguration of Christ. ...Generally, however, the insistence on the concrete was nearly always a reactive tendency, whether against Origen, as we find, for example, in Eustathius, or against other trends. (It is not clear whether the so-called Antiochene reaction arose against an exaggerated concept of Alexandrian allegory or against the emperor Julian's assertion that Christianity was mere mythos.) Yet in the end, the perceived necessity of the type's (or symbol's) correctness is, as it were, a recessive gene in the Eastern Christian's DNA. It is certainly not reflected in the church's liturgical dimensions. Young summarizes Patristic exegesis (including that of the Antiochenes) thus: "It is not the 'historical event' as such which makes typology what it is; it is the sense of recapitulation, the 'impress' of one narrative or symbol on another, 'fulfilling' it and so giving it meaning." The need for a symbol or type to be concrete is hardly a foregone conclusion. As typology functions, the type is, at any rate, fulfilled and given its true sense in the person, thing, or event that it typifies. With allegory the situation is more variable. Genesis 1, however its details are interpreted and however one translates them (or not) into science and history, concerns the physical earth, water, flora, and fauna that we know. The Song of Songs, however, derives its entire significance as a story of God's love for us rather than as a Canaanite wedding hymn."

Bouteneff's conclusion is therefore as follows: "...
The point is not, then, whether the fathers took the seven “days” or Adam
to be historical. For the fathers, as for us, the historicity question has much
more to do with how narrative, and scriptural narrative specifically, works to
convey its message—something that both the fathers and we understand in
a variety of ways. As to the end result, however, none of the fathers‘ strictly
theological or moral conclusions—about creation, or about humanity and its
redemption, and the coherence of everything in Christ—has anything to tlo
with the datable chronology of the creation of the universe or with the physical
existence of Adam and Eve.
...
If we follow the fathers, we will see the Genesis creation accounts as God’s
uniquely chosen vehicle to express his truth about cosmic and human origins and
the dynamics of sin and death, all recapitulated and cohering in the person of
Christ. However we might reckon the narratives' relationship to the unfolding of
events in historical time, our gaze will he fixed decidedly on the New Adam."

As we have seen in the above points, this conclusion is well-substantiated in the Patristic focus on christological typology. The Patristic emphasis was clearly on the implications of the narrative, specifically through typology, rather than the historicity of the narrative in itself.

I apologize again for the length!
 
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AndrewEOC

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well his general idea that all things were made for the good of man is spot-on, and his comment that the world before the Fall had no death is also spot on. he speculates too far by saying the dinosaurs pulled Adam's wagon, but his basic idea is correct.

a big problem in Orthodoxy in America, on this issue, is simply misinformation. you can find so many clergy and laity saying the Fathers didn't read Genesis literally and that there's no theological reason why evolution and Orthodoxy should be incompatible. but this is just simply not true. this shows no awareness of what the Fathers and modern Saints have actually said. the disdain for Creationists w/in Orthodoxy is from ignorance and misinformation.

However else you may disagree with him I hardly think you can accuse Dr. Bouteneff of ignorance of Patristics. The same goes for Kallistos Ware, Fr. Hopko, Fr. Dcn. Kuraev, Bishop Mileant, etc.

Also it's far more damaging and upsetting to be falsely accused of heresy, or of "not being Orthodox" (this has happened to me in real life), than to be falsely accused of scientific ignorance. I don't think I have to tell you how often Orthodox evolutionists find themselves in the former situation. Being lectured at about what the fathers taught grows equally tiresome, especially when there are obviously different ways within Orthodoxy of approaching their teachings. We all must do the best we can in the extremely complicated and muddled world we live in, while trying to avoid insanity by cognitive dissonance. If some measure of reconciliation between the camps were possible, whereby we put an end to the disdain and mudslinging of nasty words, I personally would be overjoyed.
 
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