the heavenly sanctuary doctrine (and the sabbath)

[mrasell]

If Exodus 5 in Egypt is speaking of the weekly sabbath that they were aware of, how come they seemed totally oblivious to the whole idea of sabbath rest in Exodus 16?

How about Neh. 9? It doesn't read like the COI knew about the Sabbath before Sinai.

14 You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses.

"And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? " (Ex. 16:28)
This verse suggests they did know about it. But because of slavery in Egypt and being surrounded by idolatry they had neglected or been forced to stop observing the Sabbath.

On Mount Sinai a written code was given, but before that the Patriarchs knew the principles of God's law. Abraham kept God's commandments Gen. 26:5. Joseph refused to commit adultery, Cain murdered Abel etc.

 

[ricker]

"And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? " (Ex. 16:28)
This verse suggests they did know about it. But because of slavery in Egypt and being surrounded by idolatry they had neglected or been forced to stop observing the Sabbath.

On Mount Sinai a written code was given, but before that the Patriarchs knew the principles of God's law. Abraham kept God's commandments Gen. 26:5. Joseph refused to commit adultery, Cain murdered Abel etc.

Exodus 16:28 does indeed sound like they might have known about it before this incident, if stripped of context. We read earlier in chapter 16:


22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, "This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.' "

Saying they knew about the sabbath before Exodus 16 is not supported by these verses.


The sabbath was given as a test to see if the COI would follow commands given by God.

4 Then the LORD said to Moses, "I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions. 5 On the sixth day they are to prepare what they bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days."

Apparently this resting was a new test, from new instructions. They had no clue about resting on a sabbath. This contradicts the assertion that the COI were going to observe the sabbath in Exodus 5.


People knew about morality before Sinai, but the ceremonial sign of the weekly sabbath rest, given to the nation of Israel as a covenant, was never mentioned before this.

Edit to add: isn't it stretching the imagination a liitle to think that trying to get the COI a one time, three days vacation to worship is related to a weekly sabbath observance?

 

[mrasell]

Exodus 16:28 does indeed sound like they might have known about it before this incident, if stripped of context. We read earlier in chapter 16:

how long suggests a long time.

All the 10 commandments can be found in Genesis before Moses:

1-2 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image”
Gen. 35:2-3 Jacob instructed his family to put away foreign gods, which included idols.


3 “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain”
Gen. 24:3 Eliezer was made to swear by the Lord to find a wife for Isaac, but not one from the Canaanites; he was not to break his oath which would have been profaning God’s name.


4 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy”
Gen. 2:2-3 God made the Sabbath holy during the Creation week for Adam and Eve.


5 “Honour thy father and thy mother”
Gen. 18:19 Abraham commanded his household after him.


6 “Thou shalt not kill”
Gen. 4:8-11 Cain murdered Abel.


7 “Thou shalt not commit adultery”
Gen. 39:9 Joseph refused to commit adultery which he said was a sin against God.


8 “Thou shalt not steal”
Gen. 44:8 Joseph’s brothers recognised that it would be wrong to steal from Pharaoh.


9 “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour”
Gen. 27:11-12 Joseph deceived his father and suffered a long exile from home as a consequence.


10 “Thou shalt not covet”
It is hard to find a direct reference, but it is implied in Genesis 27 when Jacob schemed to take the birthright from Esau. The breaking of the other commandments such as stealing implies that coveting took place beforehand.

Also we know that the weekly cycle existed before Moses, e.g. Jacob's marriage week in Genesis, Noah sending out the dove every seven days.

The fact that Cain and Abel offered sacrifices shows that God had given unrecorded instructions. And if Adam had not sinned he would still be keeping the Sabbath today.

 

[ricker]

how long suggests a long time.

All the 10 commandments can be found in Genesis before Moses:

1-2 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image”
Gen. 35:2-3 Jacob instructed his family to put away foreign gods, which included idols.


3 “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain”
Gen. 24:3 Eliezer was made to swear by the Lord to find a wife for Isaac, but not one from the Canaanites; he was not to break his oath which would have been profaning God’s name.


4 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy”
Gen. 2:2-3 God made the Sabbath holy during the Creation week for Adam and Eve.


5 “Honour thy father and thy mother”
Gen. 18:19 Abraham commanded his household after him.


6 “Thou shalt not kill”
Gen. 4:8-11 Cain murdered Abel.


7 “Thou shalt not commit adultery”
Gen. 39:9 Joseph refused to commit adultery which he said was a sin against God.


8 “Thou shalt not steal”
Gen. 44:8 Joseph’s brothers recognised that it would be wrong to steal from Pharaoh.


9 “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour”
Gen. 27:11-12 Joseph deceived his father and suffered a long exile from home as a consequence.


10 “Thou shalt not covet”
It is hard to find a direct reference, but it is implied in Genesis 27 when Jacob schemed to take the birthright from Esau. The breaking of the other commandments such as stealing implies that coveting took place beforehand.

Also we know that the weekly cycle existed before Moses, e.g. Jacob's marriage week in Genesis, Noah sending out the dove every seven days.

The fact that Cain and Abel offered sacrifices shows that God had given unrecorded instructions. And if Adam had not sinned he would still be keeping the Sabbath today.

Veneration of the ten commandments is all good and fine, I guess.

I still see in Exodus 16 a people completely unfamiliar with the concept of resting on the seventh day, when someone was saying they wanted to observe the sabbath in Egypt in Exodus 5. Makes no sense to me. They couldn't both know about the sabbath and be clueless about it at the same time.

 

[Joe67]

The elementary thought of worship is worship as an event in time and space.

The secondary thought of worship is worship as a doctrine.

The mature thought of worship is worship in spirit.

All three are true, in their order.

Joe

 

[VictorC]

4 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy”
Gen. 2:2-3 God made the Sabbath holy during the Creation week for Adam and Eve.

Doing this once only demonstrates a lack of understanding. Repeating the error after it has been shown to you suggests incompetence or deceit.

 

[ricker]

The elementary thought of worship is worship as an event in time and space.

The secondary thought of worship is worship as a doctrine.

The mature thought of worship is worship in spirit.

All three are true, in their order.

Joe

Please read the fourth commandment carefully. Does it say anything about worship?

 

[Joe67]

Please read the fourth commandment carefully. Does it say anything about worship?

ricker,

Deut 4:35-36
35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire. KJV

In heaven it is a voice. On earth it is words out of fire.

It is fulfilled in one word. The message is one.

The giver of the message is worthy of worship in spirit and truth.

Joe

 

[VictorC]

The giver of the message is worthy of worship in spirit and truth.

I don't think anyone here disputes that. What is in dispute is an alleged relationship between the sabbath and worship, and a question regarding that wasn't addressed.

 

[Joe67]

Rev 14:7
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. KJV

There is one Spirit and the Lord is that Spirit. There is one faith, one hope and the son of man is Lord of the sabbath.

The Lord is our God. He justifies the circumcision through faith and he justifies the uncircumcision through the same faith.

The Creator in the sabbath commandment is the same Lord God of Revelation 14:7. We are not of those who separate ourselves or who compare ourselves among ourselves.

Let us not strive at words or make a man an offender over a word.

Joe

 

[ricker]

Rev 14:7
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. KJV

There is one Spirit and the Lord is that Spirit. There is one faith, one hope and the son of man is Lord of the sabbath.

The Lord is our God. He justifies the circumcision through faith and he justifies the uncircumcision through the same faith.

The Creator in the sabbath commandment is the same Lord God of Revelation 14:7. We are not of those who separate ourselves or who compare ourselves among ourselves.

Let us not strive at words or make a man an offender over a word.

Joe

Yes, we are to worship God the Creator. Is there anything in the ten commandments that say this is to be only on a specific day of the week? I don't think the 4th commandment says anything at all about worship. Only rest.

Have we accepted my point that the COI couldn't have both known of the sabbath in Exodus 5, and not known about it in Exodus 16?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Yes, we are to worship God the Creator. Is there anything in the ten commandments that say this is to be only on a specific day of the week? I don't think the 4th commandment says anything at all about worship. Only rest.

Have we accepted my point that the COI couldn't have both known of the sabbath in Exodus 5, and not known about it in Exodus 16?

Ricker . . . you've hit on a common problem within modern day sabbatarianism -- too often loyalists conclude that worship is an activity that should only be conducted one day out of seven. This is particularly a problem among those who conclude that there is a good way to worship God and a bad way to worship God and that, if they pursue the bad way, they will eventually receive the mark of the beast.

BFA

 

[ricker]

Ricker . . . you've hit on a common problem within modern day sabbatarianism -- too often loyalists conclude that worship is an activity that should only be conducted one day out of seven. This is particularly a problem among those who conclude that there is a good way to worship God and a bad way to worship God and that, if they pursue the bad way, they will eventually receive the mark of the beast.

BFA

Good thoughts. Rev 14 certainly doesn't place a time limit on when to worship God.

 

[VictorC]

The giver of the message is worthy of worship in spirit and truth.

I don't think anyone here disputes that. What is in dispute is an alleged relationship between the sabbath and worship, and a question regarding that wasn't addressed.

This is bumped up for Joe's response, since I believe this is an important distinction he has left unsupported. I haven't seen a relationship between worship and the sabbath, even in the tenure of the first covenant that contained the sabbath.

 

[Joe67]

Please read the fourth commandment carefully. Does it say anything about worship?

ricker,

My post said nothing concerning the fourth commandment.

Joe

 

[Joe67]

I don't think anyone here disputes that. What is in dispute is an alleged relationship between the sabbath and worship, and a question regarding that wasn't addressed.

This is bumped up for Joe's response, since I believe this is an important distinction he has left unsupported. I haven't seen a relationship between worship and the sabbath, even in the tenure of the first covenant that contained the sabbath.

Victor,

The only allegation is in the mind of the reader.

Joe

 

[Joe67]

Good thoughts. Rev 14 certainly doesn't place a time limit on when to worship God.

ricker,

Amen. This is the witness of my post that the mature worship God in the spirit, apart from but witnessed by the primary and secondary worship experience.

All religious systems have some type of special time and food.

All religious systems have some special teaching/doctrine.

It is worshipful if it is religious. Not all is in the spirit.

Joe

 

[VictorC]

Victor,

The only allegation is in the mind of the reader.

Joe

Joe, I have no idea what you're talking about. Somehow you hinted at a connection between Revelation 14 and the sabbath, and I'm not alone in noting the connection you alleged is nowhere to be found. Would you like to clarify what the intent of your posts are?

 

[ricker]

ricker,

Amen. This is the witness of my post that the mature worship God in the spirit, apart from but witnessed by the primary and secondary worship experience.

All religious systems have some type of special time and food.

All religious systems have some special teaching/doctrine.

It is worshipful if it is religious. Not all is in the spirit.

Joe

Thanks, Joe. I am unfamiliar with the concept of primary and secondary worship. Am I right in understanding from your post that one is collective , and one is private? Which is primary, and which is secondary? So neither are in the Spirit? On what is this distinction based on?

Please elaborate. I may be way off in my thoughts.

 

[mrasell]

Jesus went to the Synagogue on the Sabbath, so that ought to settle the matter, as Lord of the Sabbath he set a good example.

The commandment itself implies that if we cease secular activity we will turn our minds to spiritual things.