the heavenly sanctuary doctrine (and the sabbath)

[Byfaithalone1]

The original Sabbath in Eden did not require burnt offerings

What is the basis for this conclusion?

that was introduced later,

What is the basis for this conclusion?

and removed at the death of Christ.

So the sabbath remains post-death but the behaviors that made it special do not remain post-death?

Which is why the Sabbath will be celebrated in the new earth - Isa. 66:22-23

Nothing here suggesting that the sabbath will be celebrated in the new earth.

BFA

 

[VictorC]

The original Sabbath in Eden did not require burnt offerings, that was introduced later, and removed at the death of Christ. Which is why the Sabbath will be celebrated in the new earth - Isa. 66:22-23

A reference to a sabbath in Eden is an admission of illiteracy at this juncture, since it has been demonstrated to you numerous times there was no sabbath in Eden. You never offered any defense for your commitment to error.

At the time the sabbath came to an end, it required burnt offerings. God's displeasure with the burnt offerings was given as a reason He ended the ordinances that mandated them, and ending those ordinances ended the sabbath. Hebrews 10:9 goes a step further and takes away the covenant from Mount Sinai that ordained the sabbath in the first place. That was the double-whammy presented in Hebrews 10:1-9 that called a permanent end to the weekly sabbath.

Telling me you're going to trip over dead bodies in the new earth is another illustration of your commitment to error.

 

[RND]

A reference to a sabbath in Eden is an admission of illiteracy at this juncture, since it has been demonstrated to you numerous times there was no sabbath in Eden. You never offered any defense for your commitment to error.

It's obvious that there was a sabbath in Eden because the Bible clearly shows God created it after six days. At this juncture any reference that there was no sabbath in Eden is to deny obvious truth.

 

[RND]

As Hebrews reminds us, this rest was a promise yet to be attained by the people who were already observing the sabbath.

That rest cannot be entered into through disobedience.

 

[VictorC]

It's obvious that there was a sabbath in Eden because the Bible clearly shows God created it after six days. At this juncture any reference that there was no sabbath in Eden is to deny obvious truth.

You did not get this variant from the truth using a Bible.

• The Genesis account doesn't record a repetitive day observed by any human.
• Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath, using the same sentence structure Deuteronomy 5:15 does to refer to a single event in the past to ordain the shadow.
• Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath.
• Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
• Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.

Reliance on the Bible alone will cause you to recognize that the seventh day is consistently handled as a separate subject apart from the sabbath, which didn't originate until "made for man" much later. The sabbath was man's rest, and the seventh day was God's rest, that those who had kept the sabbath for nearly 1500 years didn't attain (Hebrews 4).

 

[VictorC]

That rest cannot be entered into through disobedience.

Why does Adventism number itself with those who have replaced the commandments of God with the first covenant He has taken away? Concerning God's rest, Hebrews 3 concludes this:

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[RND]

You did not get this variant from the truth using a Bible.

• The Genesis account doesn't record a repetitive day observed by any human.

You mean there wasn't a 14th day? A 21st? A 28th?

• Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath, using the same sentence structure Deuteronomy 5:15 does to refer to a single event in the past to ordain the shadow.

One and the same. There is no difference in the seventh-day and the sabbath in either Exodus or Deuteronomy!

• Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath.

And that rest could not be entered into through disobedience.

• Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.

• The second reading of the law came to a new generation not the old one.

Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.

At this point they knew it "by law".

Reliance on the Bible alone will cause you to recognize that the seventh day is consistently handled as a separate subject apart from the sabbath, which didn't originate until "made for man" much later. The sabbath was man's rest, and the seventh day was God's rest, that those who had kept the sabbath for nearly 1500 years didn't attain (Hebrews 4).

That's a huge stretch!

 

[VictorC]

You mean there wasn't a 14th day? A 21st? A 28th?

God's rest never ended nor repeated, and there was no rest on the 14th, 21st, etc day ofter creation.

One and the same. There is no difference in the seventh-day and the sabbath in either Exodus or Deuteronomy!

How many times did God rest?
Once.
How many times did God deliver Israel from Egyptian bondage?
Once.

In both instances a single event was the impetus to ordain the sabbath, that Jesus testified was made for man -not God- in Mark 2:27.

And that rest could not be entered into through disobedience.

False.
"For we who have believed do enter that rest", and not the sabbath the recipients of this epistle already observed, as written in Hebrews 4:3.

The second reading of the law came to a new generation not the old one.

Now you're suggesting there is more than one kind of sabbath.

At this point they knew it "by law".

That law was the only origin for the sabbath.

That's a huge stretch!

That stretch was a quote from Jesus, Who testified that the sabbath wasn't God's "My rest" Hebrews 4:1 mentions as a promise yet to attain.

 

[RND]

God's rest never ended nor repeated, and there was no rest on the 14th, 21st, etc day ofter creation.

And you have scripture that shows conclusively that Adam and Eve never enjoyed the shabbat?

How many times did God rest?
Once.
How many times did God deliver Israel from Egyptian bondage?
Once.

And?

In both instances a single event was the impetus to ordain the sabbath, that Jesus testified was made for man -not God- in Mark 2:27.

Made for man. Was Adam a man? Are you?

False.
"For we who have believed do enter that rest", and not the sabbath the recipients of this epistle already observed, as written in Hebrews 4:3.

False? You serious?

Hbr 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Unbelief = disobedience!

Now you're suggesting there is more than one kind of sabbath.

Nope. A new reason for observing it.

That law was the only origin for the sabbath.

Nope. Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. God spoke His law before ever writting it down!

That stretch was a quote from Jesus, Who testified that the sabbath wasn't God's "My rest" Hebrews 4:1 mentions as a promise yet to attain.

Still can't enter into "that rest" through disobedience.... er, "lack of faith."

 

[VictorC]

And you have scripture that shows conclusively that Adam and Eve never enjoyed the shabbat?

You haven't found a sabbath that has existed during Adam and Eve's life span. You're reliant on a vacuum unsupported by Scripture.

And?

Only once did God rest, and that rest has never ended. There is no record of anything that repeated as the sabbath did after it was ordained.

Made for man. Was Adam a man? Are you?

You reenforced my point that God isn't a man.

False? You serious?

Hbr 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Unbelief = disobedience!

Review the record of the provocation in Numbers 14. Those who disobeyed were following the ten spies who did not believe God's ability to deliver them into the promised land.

Nope. A new reason for observing it.

An admission that both Deuteronomy and Exodus refer to the same ordinance given from the impetus of a single event in the past.

Nope. Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. God spoke His law before ever writting it down!

One month before the law was given, and that was as a test to determine Israel's readiness for the covenant issued at Mount Sinai (Exodus 16:4).

Still can't enter into "that rest" through disobedience.... er, "lack of faith."

Which you apparently haven't done, since your focus is on the repeating sabbath instead of God's permanent rest.

 

[RND]

You haven't found a sabbath that has existed during Adam and Eve's life span. You're reliant on a vacuum unsupported by Scripture.

I have scripture that shows God created the "seventh-day" blessed it and sanctified it and commanded it to be observed so it appears you have no scripture to back up your assertion that Adam and Eve did shabbat.

Only once did God rest, and that rest has never ended. There is no record of anything that repeated as the sabbath did after it was ordained.

Gee, that's mighty Catholic in your interpretation. Are we now in the 8th day signified by Sunday?

You reenforced my point that God isn't a man.

Didn't stop Him from creating the sabbath....for man. A man like Adam!

Review the record of the provocation in Numbers 14. Those who disobeyed were following the ten spies who did not believe God's ability to deliver them into the promised land.

That's called unbelief! Which is what Hebrews 3 says....you said that was false!

An admission that both Deuteronomy and Exodus refer to the same ordinance given from the impetus of a single event in the past.

Right.

One month before the law was given, and that was as a test to determine Israel's readiness for the covenant issued at Mount Sinai (Exodus 16:4).

The test was the manna coming down, not the sabbath. The sabbath was began in Egypt!

Which you apparently haven't done, since your focus is on the repeating sabbath instead of God's permanent rest.

Well that's interesting. How do you claim to know what my heart contains? Which day do you repeat? Rome's Sunday? Maybe you don't keep a day thus forsaking Paul's admonition?

How does one enter God's permanent rest if they still regard unfaithfulness in their hearts?

 

[ricker]

I have scripture that shows God created the "seventh-day" blessed it and sanctified it and commanded it to be observed so it appears you have no scripture to back up your assertion that Adam and Eve did shabbat.

Gee, that's mighty Catholic in your interpretation. Are we now in the 8th day signified by Sunday?

Didn't stop Him from creating the sabbath....for man. A man like Adam!

That's called unbelief! Which is what Hebrews 3 says....you said that was false!

Right.

The test was the manna coming down, not the sabbath. The sabbath was began in Egypt!

Well that's interesting. How do you claim to know what my heart contains? Which day do you repeat? Rome's Sunday? Maybe you don't keep a day thus forsaking Paul's admonition?

How does one enter God's permanent rest if they still regard unfaithfulness in their hearts?

It's nice to see you back defending the peculiar beliefs, Dave!

 

[VictorC]

I have scripture that shows God created the "seventh-day" blessed it and sanctified it and commanded it to be observed so it appears you have no scripture to back up your assertion that Adam and Eve did shabbat.

This is an admission you have nothing to support your contention that Adam and Eve were ever alive when the sabbath came into existence. They were never commanded to observe a component of the law Moses testified didn't exist prior to his own generation in Deuteronomy 5:2-3.

Gee, that's mighty Catholic in your interpretation. Are we now in the 8th day signified by Sunday?

Not an answer.
Just an appeal to another repeating day (Sunday) that has no relation to the seventh day of creation.

Didn't stop Him from creating the sabbath....for man. A man like Adam!

But Adam never received the sabbath, remember? You're still reliant on a vacuum in deference to the Biblical record.

That's called unbelief! Which is what Hebrews 3 says....you said that was false!

Then you agree with me that my point was right all along.

Right.

Then you agree with me that my point was right all along.

The test was the manna coming down, not the sabbath. The sabbath was began in Egypt!

The sabbath and the manna experience were coincidental, and I notice your contention of an origin with nothing to support it.

Well that's interesting. How do you claim to know what my heart contains? Which day do you repeat? Rome's Sunday? Maybe you don't keep a day thus forsaking Paul's admonition?

Biblical Christianity doesn't affirm any repeating day. We have entered God's permanent rest: "For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His" (Hebrews 4:10). Remember you haven't documented any time God ended His rest - and you aren't going to, as He hasn't. It is the reality of our eternal salvation that the repeating aspects of the law were called a shadow of.

How does one enter God's permanent rest if they still regard unfaithfulness in their hearts?

They can't as long as they try to establish their own salvation under the law ordained at Sinai. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain (Galatians 2:21). This would describe Ellen White's departure from the Gospel, when she concluded "It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord" in {6T 356.4}. The appeal to a works-based soteriology is the reason you were taught to grovel to the first covenant instead of accepting God's new covenant in His Blood. It is a failure ascribed to by every group that refuses to submit to God's righteousness that has justified us (Romans 10:1-4).

 

[RND]

This is an admission you have nothing to support your contention that Adam and Eve were ever alive when the sabbath came into existence.

Adam and Eve created on the 6th day. Sabbath the 7th.

Victor, did God tell Adam "don't look " when He was blessing and sanctifying the seventh-day?

They were never commanded to observe a component of the law Moses testified didn't exist prior to his own generation in Deuteronomy 5:2-3.

You have no evidence from scripture to back up this statement, sorry!

Not an answer.
Just an appeal to another repeating day (Sunday) that has no relation to the seventh day of creation.

You're right. Not an answer. Just trying to figure out what day you consider God holds as sanctified.

But Adam never received the sabbath, remember? You're still reliant on a vacuum in deference to the Biblical record.

Great! Show me in scripture. Can you hazard to guess that Adam being made on the 6th day was aware of what God did on the 7th?

Then you agree with me that my point was right all along.

Go back and re-read this thread man! You said it was "false" when I said one can't enter God's rest through unbelief! Man, you are something else!

Then you agree with me that my point was right all along.

Read it again. I'm agreeing that God's nature and character was made evident before the earth was created. In other words, He's never changed.

The sabbath and the manna experience were coincidental, and I notice your contention of an origin with nothing to support it.

See Exodus 5. They began taking the sabbath off which cause Pharaoh to pull his hair out. The sabbath and manna experience was indeed coincidental. The sabbath became a test at that time because, guess what, they didn't believe in God's word....thus they demonstrated their what? Unbelief!

Biblical Christianity doesn't affirm any repeating day. We have entered God's permanent rest: "For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His" (Hebrews 4:10). Remember you haven't documented any time God ended His rest - and you aren't going to, as He hasn't. It is the reality of our eternal salvation that the repeating aspects of the law were called a shadow of.

And the sabbath commandment thus remains. See verse 9.

They can't as long as they try to establish their own salvation under the law ordained at Sinai. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain (Galatians 2:21).

That's right. We don't get brownie points for obeying the law. However we can and do lose brownie points for intentionally breaking it!

This would describe Ellen White's departure from the Gospel, when she concluded "It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord" in {6T 356.4}.

Just as if she would have said it means eternal salvation not to lust after your neighbors wife or goods.

The appeal to a works-based soteriology is the reason you were taught to grovel to the first covenant instead of accepting God's new covenant in His Blood.

Does that covenant of blood free me to kill and rape and rob banks? Should I sin more so His grace abounds?

It is a failure ascribed to by every group that refuses to submit to God's righteousness that has justified us (Romans 10:1-4).

Isn't God's righteousness defined by His law?

 

[VictorC]

Adam and Eve created on the 6th day. Sabbath the 7th.

Scripture to support this contention?
I already mentioned the seventh day of creation was God's rest, and Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 to affirm that point.

See Exodus 5. They began taking the sabbath off which cause Pharaoh to pull his hair out. The sabbath and manna experience was indeed coincidental. The sabbath became a test at that time because, guess what, they didn't believe in God's word....thus they demonstrated their what? Unbelief!

Go read Exodus 5 again. It describes a three-day one-way journey to make a sacrifice. There is absolutely no mention of a sabbath nor anything remotely similar.

And the sabbath commandment thus remains. See verse 9.

Hebrews 4:9 affirms God's sabbatismos, called "another day" in the verse previous, and "His rest" in the verse following. There is no mention of a repeating sabbaton anywhere in Hebrews 4.

So much of your post is speculation, I think you should garner Scriptural support for your contentions thus mentioned.

 

[RND]

Scripture to support this contention?

You serious?

I already mentioned the seventh day of creation was God's rest, and Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 to affirm that point.

Right the same day He blessed and sanctified the 7th day. See verse 9 in Heb. 4.

Go read Exodus 5 again. It describes a three-day one-way journey to make a sacrifice. There is absolutely no mention of a sabbath nor anything remotely similar.

Rest in Ex. 5:5 is sabbath.

verse 4: And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.

You let (para - to let go, let loose, cause to stop) the people from their works. Past tense. It was already happening Victor.

Hebrews 4:9 affirms God's sabbatismos, called "another day" in the verse previous, and "His rest" in the verse following. There is no mention of a repeating sabbaton anywhere in Hebrews 4.

Sabbatismos = a "keeping of the sabbath"

So much of your post is speculation, I think you should garner Scriptural support for your contentions thus mentioned.

And I think you'd do well to seek the Holy Spirit to assist you with your misunderstanding! You've closed you mind to seeking the truth and you are set in your ways.

 

[VictorC]

You serious?

Absolutely. Ante up!

Right the same day He blessed and sanctified the 7th day.

But not the sabbath, clearly delineated apart from the seventh day of creation.

See verse 9 in Heb. 4.

No sabbath there, already refuted.

Rest in Ex. 5:5 is sabbath.

False.
Exodus 5:5 uses the verb shabath, with no reference to the noun shabbath.

Sabbatismos = a "keeping of the sabbath"

False.
Sabbatismos is a "keeping sabbath", not a "sabbath keeping", with emphasis on a permanent rest that the previous verse calls another day to distinguish the promise yet to be attained by those who already had the sabbath. Context and Thayer's Lexicon both refute this contention.

And I think you'd do well to seek the Holy Spirit to assist you with your misunderstanding! You've closed you mind to seeking the truth and you are set in your ways.

Scripture is the truth I have accepted. You haven't complied with it nor found evidence for your contention, and this is for good reason: ascribing the sabbath to the creation week is a myth demonstrating the lack of Ellen White's alleged inspiration.

 

[RND]

Absolutely. Ante up!

Wow! What a shame.

Let me just ask this. Was Adam a man?

But not the sabbath, clearly delineated apart from the seventh day of creation.

For some Antinomianist I can see that being true.

No sabbath there, already refuted.

For some Antinomianist I can see that point being made.

False.
Exodus 5:5 uses the verb shabath, with no reference to the noun shabbath.

Right. Verb. An "action" word. They were already "resting" and that was the point.

False.
Sabbatismos is a "keeping sabbath", not a "sabbath keeping", with emphasis on a permanent rest that the previous verse calls another day to distinguish the promise yet to be attained by those who already had the sabbath. Context and Thayer's Lexicon both refute this contention.

Right, I said that. A keeping of the sabbath remains.

Scripture is the truth I have accepted.

If that was the case you wouldn't advocate the law has been done away with.

You haven't complied with it nor found evidence for your contention, and this is for good reason: ascribing the sabbath to the creation week is a myth demonstrating the lack of Ellen White's alleged inspiration.

To some, that might be true. For me I became a sabbatarian long before I heard of EGW. The sabbath was instituted at creation just like Exodus 20:8-11 tells us.

 

[VictorC]

Wow! What a shame.

This indicates you can't find anything to support your contention.

Right. Verb. An "action" word. They were already "resting" and that was the point.

Your point was that there was support for the sabbath in Exodus 5, which you seemed to forget. There isn't any such support.

Right, I said that. A keeping of the sabbath remains.

A contention made in variance to the Biblical record isn't acceptable.

If that was the case you wouldn't advocate the law has been done away with.

This is what Scripture affirms, and you haven't found a means to continue the first covenant from Mount Sinai past the Hand of Jesus Christ taking it away (Hebrews 10:9).

To some, that might be true. For me I became a sabbatarian long before I heard of EGW. The sabbath was instituted at creation just like Exodus 20:8-11 tells us.

I used to be a sabbatarian, and left the belief system when I found this contention could not be supported any better than a feigned return to the covenant from Mount Sinai that God chose to deliver us from. I tried to find a means to support the observance of the sabbath, and failed to do so. I ran away from the sabbath when I found that sabbatarianism doesn't keep the sabbath in compliance with the law that ordained it, and a determination to honest personal integrity mandated that I quit playing games and affirm God's redemption as his purchased possession. Yet you haven't shared in this call to integrity, as you claim a sabbath origin outside of the law's documentation for it. Exodus 20:11 doesn't support what you think it does, as it delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath as faithfully as Deuteronomy 5:15 does with respect to the exodus from Egypt.

 

[ricker]

Rest in Ex. 5:5 is sabbath.

verse 4: And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.

You let (para - to let go, let loose, cause to stop) the people from their works. Past tense. It was already happening Victor.

If Exodus 5 in Egypt is speaking of the weekly sabbath that they were aware of, how come they seemed totally oblivious to the whole idea of sabbath rest in Exodus 16?

How about Neh. 9? It doesn't read like the COI knew about the Sabbath before Sinai.

14 You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses.