the guilty man wanting to separate

[taku60]

Many things aren't directly mentioned by name in the Bible...that's where discernment comes in. Just because you can't find scripture that says "oh..and about porn...it's no good...er,um so sayeth the Lord." doesn't mean that by default porn is a good thing.

And I'm not saying porn is evil. I know quite a few couples that watch it together and love how it spices up their sex lives. I also know that it can make a marriage crumble as well. I just find Taku's "logic" that if it's not directly mentioned in the Bible it's all good to be completely faulty.

All things are permissible (unless directly condemed in the bible) but not all things are benificial. So I agree with you that porn can be good or bad depending on the situation, My wife and I are one of thoes couples that porn spices up our sex life and I enjoy it very much as long as its with her. But the condemnation porn gets in church is way over the top in my opinion, they try to loosely connect it with different things that are directly forbidden, kinda like trying to add pork at the end of a bill in congress, its not part of the bill but they want to lump it in there becasue its kinda sorta really really losely related at least in their mind. Porn and touching yourself is discussed so much in mens groups to the detriment of real issues and can cause attendance to dwindle because people get tired of hearing a broken record or being told they are a sex addict when there is a 99.9999% chance they are really not. Thats why I said just be really careful with mens groups.

 

[b.hopeful]

FWIW....your argument in support of porn sounds a lot like my prochoice argument.

 

[tenerts]

/unhijack this thread.

This thread was not written to debate porn. Let's drop it!

I need prayer and support.. not arguments.:o

 

[taku60]

/unhijack this thread.

This thread was not written to debate porn. Let's drop it!

I need prayer and support.. not arguments.:o

im not trying to hijack im simply saying be careful in your mens group.

 

[BarelyBreathing]

im not trying to hijack im simply saying be careful in your mens group.

Tenerts isn't having a problem with his men's group. He also in entitled to his own beliefs regarding porn... which was also not the point if this thread.


Tenerts, as before I'll be praying and let us know how things go.

 

[myanchor]

How we love by Milan and Kay Yerkovich is a exploration of attachment theory and how it affects our style of relating to others and the ways we love them. Adults who were broken by abuse will relate in certain ways. Adults who were molested will relate in other ways that overlap. Adults who are children of addicts or folks who are unable to take care of their children will relate in still other ways that sometimes overlap.
You were molested and hence were broken in some ways, she is the adult child of alkies you say, she is broken in other ways. Sometimes the brokenness is extreme and the now adult child suffers from borderline personality disorder.

In all cases no one will change until the pain of not changing is greater than the pain of changing.

 

[tenerts]

You were molested and hence were broken in some ways, she is the adult child of alkies you say, she is broken in other ways. Sometimes the brokenness is extreme and the now adult child suffers from borderline personality disorder.

In all cases no one will change until the pain of not changing is greater than the pain of changing.

To claify, she is not an adult child of an alkie... our Therapist is. She may have borderline personality disorder.... <--- though this is a very controversial diagnosis.

Regarding the pain, I can't image there being anymore pain than what's currently going on... If there's more... then God please help us.

We spent 8 hours talking through things on saturday. I set some new boundries and am willing to give it another try, but I'm struggling with my heart and wanting to just give up.

Lord God help me to forgive and begin anew.

 

[myanchor]

Oh, sorry, didn't read it right. BPD if the person won't get therapy can be intractable. BPD with therapy is supposed to be the most curable. There's the rub, BPD folks have a maturity problem about getting to therapy.

I wish they would call it mood lability disorder or something like that. It would get away from the pejorative impact it now has. DW sometimes says you have it. I get riled up and say "you aren't a doctor, you have no right to diagnose, and if you just want to label me as you seem to want to do, it is no help. So kiss my grits, honey."

Read over in BPD and do goggle it.

If there is no hope that the pain can end by the auspices of a good therapist and/or meds then there is no realization that change can decrease the pain.

 

[tenerts]

Read over in BPD and do goggle it.

I have googled it. My counselor suggested that I read Walking on Eggshells. I read just a portion of it... and [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]... the similarities are dead on.

 

[visionary]

Sounds like all this has taken a toll on your wife. You are making a wonderful recovery from where you were, and it would be nice if you and your wife were on the same page. But alas, now it is your turn to be patient with your wife.

 

[tenerts]

Sounds like all this has taken a toll on your wife. You are making a wonderful recovery from where you were, and it would be nice if you and your wife were on the same page. But alas, now it is your turn to be patient with your wife.

Thanks visionary. This seems to be the best word I've received yet.

Difficult, yet pointing in the right direction I believe.

 

[Conservativation]

I take your point about sexual neglect as being abuse. Scripture even directs us not to neglect our spouse except for prayer and fasting. But I really believe you are only seeing this from your perspective. Anytime my wife wants to have sex... and initiates it, I comply and give it back accordingly.

My wife's problem is that I only initiate it twice a month. She has a lot of issues around rejection that we have talked about. I have issues around sex since remembering a molestation that occurred when I was young. I'm trying to work through these things, but I'm hardly there yet.

My wife uses anger, it's her addiction... it's what she resorts to.

I get it that... a back rub is not sex. But let me give you an example of what has ocurred.

Two weeks ago, I offered a full body massage... she said she didn't trust me and that I would probably "use her" like an object.. just like when I looked at porn in the past. (she views porn as sin... I do too). In anger, she told me that next time I need to offer it without any strings attached. I thought... okay.

So.... when I offered her the full body massage again, this time... I said "with no strings attached". She immediately jumped into anger and said that this was just a form of rejection and that if I wanted and desired her... that I would have asked for sex.

Do you see the crazy making in all of this?

I tried to confront her to tell here that she can't have it both ways.... but she wouldn't hear it. She went into anger and told me to just leave.

This is an example of why I'm so hurting.

Do I desire my wife? NO.. I honestly don't right now... I don't like her control and manipulation and anger. I'm hurting.

That kind of arguing, like she did there on the massage.....its a MASSIVE problem, and as trite as it sounds (cause everyone says this) its a communication issue.
BUT, in breaking with conventional wisdom...THIS is a prime example of where the "male style" of communicating would be a bit superior. NO WAY can you or any rational person follow her in those meandering rabbit trails. It is impossible...even SHE cant follow herself because its nonsense. I know of what I speak....trust me....

If you can remember a few examples like that....remember them well, almost verbatim, I say raise those with your counselor. If the counselr tell YOU that YOU must figure that stuff out....get a new counselor.

That exact kind of trap is the place where the whole communication dilemma manifests between the genders. Its not IF but WHEN will it lead to the man getting so incredibly frustrated that he cannot seem to penetrate it with plan spoken simple logical appeals, that he likely then raises his voice, and then the whole focus of the problem BECOMES his raised voice.

 

[tenerts]

That kind of arguing, like she did there on the massage.....its a MASSIVE problem, and as trite as it sounds (cause everyone says this) its a communication issue.

If you can remember a few examples like that....remember them well, almost verbatim, I say raise those with your counselor. If the counselr tell YOU that YOU must figure that stuff out....get a new counselor.

I did quote this argument to my counselor. He told me that this type of argument is called a "double bind". It puts the person in a situation where they cannot win.

It's like asking someone... if you love me... you'll cut your arm off...

When I called my wife on it... she denied that she had done it. I knew that it occurred because I journal everyday. I wrote down both conversations.. they were days apart.


Anyways...it's done and in the past. I'm just more aware now than I've ever been.


praying....

 

[taku60]

Your wife knows exactly what she is doing, she is just mind ***king you. I would figure out what she has to gain from this, there is very clearly an alteriour motive behind all this, women who do this are not stupid, she is trying to get you to react so she can get something out of the deal (wheater that be raising your voice, hitting her, cheating on her, etc then she can say oh woe is me im a battered cheated on woman when really that was her plan all along then she can get sympathy and child support maybe even alimony etc. I would get a tape recorder and start documenting all this, dont get upset just play the game and when you have enough evidence take it to a laywer and see if you can screw her to the wall get 50/50 custody or 100&#37; custody with no alimony and kick her to the curve. Or you can just let this keep going on and eventually get frustrated enough to hit her and end up in jail leaving her with full bannana clip of .223 to use against you in court and she will be bleeding you for child support until you are an old man.

You think im making this stuff up, my friend who is going though this has a domestic violence on his record because his evil ex did this same thing and he yelled at her and pushed her into a wall she then used it against him, this happened several years before I met him and I have know him for 5 years now and he is STILL dealing with child support issues even though the entire thing was her fault.

 

[Macx]

You think im making this stuff up, my friend who is going though this has a domestic violence on his record because his evil ex did this same thing and he yelled at her and pushed her into a wall she then used it against him

He pushed her into a wall & now he is a criminal . . . but it is her fault because he isn't responsible for his actions? Yeah, your friend is a Lautenberg second class citizens because of the very philosophy you are espousing.

 

[taku60]

He pushed her into a wall & now he is a criminal . . . but it is her fault because he isn't responsible for his actions? Yeah, your friend is a Lautenberg second class citizens because of the very philosophy you are espousing.

Its all relative, I like how you cherry picked one sentence to quote, its impossible to have a discussion when things are taken out of context.

 

[eatenbylocusts]

Im just saying be careful is all. Also porn is not in the bible, you can be dismissive or you can actually read.

How could porn be addressed when it didn't exist? Prostitution was an issue at that time and it was addressed.

taku, I think you need to take some time and do some reading and praying. It is a very serious thing to lead another astray.

 

[eatenbylocusts]

tenerts-was your wife verbally abusive before she found out that you had been watching porn? I know someone else touched on this, but most women feel very threatened by their husband viewing porn and have to deal with insecurities about their own bodies.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Sometimes the best we can do is just try to keep our side of the street clean and make a living amends to those we have harmed in our past. Your wife seems to be hurting, and in sobriety you are in a better position to help her if you can muster the patience.

 

[tenerts]

tenerts-was your wife verbally abusive before she found out that you had been watching porn? I know someone else touched on this, but most women feel very threatened by their husband viewing porn and have to deal with insecurities about their own bodies.

She was verbally abusive b4 I began looking at porn. Long before.