The god who (once again) wasn't there: Virginia Tech

[livingforGod135]

I'd think that with a matter of my faith and eternal salvation, a loving God would at least help me with that first starting step.

maybe he was saying 'be patient' I dont know... I am not God, so maybe u should take this up with him?

also I think that although God will be with us to help get us out of any particular mess we have got ourseles in, he wont just get rid of it without us doing anything


doesnt mean he cant... but it was our choice to get into the mess and has to be our choice (and work) to get out of it

Yes, because even though it's the most powerful and most loved religion in the world, every single Christian media outlet is actually a double agent for Satan. Even the entire Vatican, yes they're all against it trying to cover up this miraculous resurrection story you have,

proof?

because the world is waging a war on Christ.

as it was said would happen

It is totally impossible that if prayer actually raised someone from the dead, that I wouldn't see or hear anything about it.

well it seems that it is possible u wouldnt hear about it (before me telling u) because i know the person i heared this off wouldnt lie... and before u say who did he get it off... i believe it was someone who was there, and he wouldnt have repeated it if he thought the source was unreliable

No, not really. The Qur'an is extremely similar to the OT.

I know... the first 5 books are almost identical, right?

If dinosaurs ever lived at the same time as people did, then there would be human fossils. There aren't.

why should i have to keep justifying this to you? you continually shoot down any explanation i give u, I can believe this stuff because i have faith

If God really wants salvation for all mankind, then he wouldn't allow Satan to create false evidence like that. "Free will" blah blah, I don't care, God should have put the restriction on Satan that he can't create valid reasons to disbelieve.

yes free will... u seem to be getting it now and you have made it perfectly obvious that u dont care, so why do you continue to ask questions like u actually do... or are u actually trying to 'save' me from these 'false' beliefs? if so i have to say... very Christian of u!!!

and God did put restrictions on satan... he doesnt have the power to end lives... but he does manipulate things to make them look like evidence against God

I was always under the impression that slavery (God explicitly permits the beating of slaves in Exodus 21:20), genocide, and infanticide were always wrong. A perfect God would never change his standards.

I dont feel i am the right person t give a good reply to this as I dont know much about the topic, but i do feel that whatever has, or will happen(ed) God has his own reasons

There is never a "reason" to kill a baby because of who his parents were. Ever.

we inherit our parents sin

It doesn't really matter. The fact is, throughout history, religion has caused and rationalized more murder than any other force.

not religion, not christianity, people, claiming to be religious

First, I dunno where you heard this "two dust particles" thing. I just know that the universe started in an infinite singularity, and while I don't understand the physics behind it, it just began expanding for some reason.

well i heard it off my science teacher in school

universe expanding isnt the same as the big bang theory... where is the bang?

It's really just logical to assume that, since the universe is expanding now, at one point it was all in one spot.

maybe it was... maybe God started it expanding

On a rock rich with minerals and oxygen and water

still a rock.

And just because you can't grasp how long of a process evolution is, doesn't mean it's impossible.

dude i have studied evolution so dont down talk me and tell me i cant 'grasp' it

But the fact is, there are mountains of evidence supporting evolution,

yes plenty of lies, manipulations and misinterpretations... and by the way there is evidence for creation too

for instance: the grand canyon: a whole lot of water made it how it is... scientists say rain fro over the years but dont u think it could also have been one biiiiiiig flood?

and it really overwhelms the small gaps in the theory that haven't been filled. Evolution is an observable process even today.

doesnt 'overwhelm' these so called small gaps for me... gaps are gaps no matter what the size... and before u say it FAITH overrides the gaps (that u will no doubt find) in creation

Now let's go over your theory

not a theory... but here goes

A cosmic Jewish Zombie

just because he was ressurected it doesnt make him a zombie... and what does cosmic mean?
yes he was jewish, so what?

who was his own father

u have to fully understand the trinity before u start arguing about it and pretending u understand

can make you live forever

eternal life is gauranteed... just where u spend it is what is different... but yes he can 'make' u abe to live in heaven for eternity

if you symbolically eat his flesh

i presume u are talking about communion?? if so u missed out the 'drink his blood' part and communion isnt something u have to do to be a christian

and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master,

prayer is not telepathy as u well know

so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity

sin is not removed from us until we stand before him, made perfect in his image

because a rib-woman

woman was created from man, yes using one of adams ribs... this doesnt make eve a rib-woman, she was the first woman and a proper one at that

also, by this explanation, does this make adam, a 'dust man'?

was convinced by a talking snake

serpent actually... if ur gonna argue like this at the very least get it right

to eat from a Magical Tree.

the tree of life... it was the first sin... as u know

Just a little bit on the dodgy side, don't you think?

actually no... its more realistic than what u believe... 'once the universe was nothing and then it just happened'

I still fail to see how the Bible is more proof of Christianity than the epic Oddyssey is proof of Greco-Roman mythology.

i know nothing at all about roman mythology, so i cant comment on this topic but i know the bible to be the truth

Quote:

Of course. But it doesn't make sense why God needs faith. Why can't God make himself apparent? It seems an awful lot like this is just an aspect of Christianity to explain away the fact that you haven't seen God.

u seriously expect God to reveal himself to all? well there will be plenty of proof that u need in the end times

and its not God cant its God chooses not to... same as u choose to not believe

Did you seriously just say that? Like, seriously? Ever heard the story of Noah's Ark? The Bible says that God killed more people in one fell swoop than any human that has ever dwelled on Earth.

dont take me for supid of course i know the story of noahs ark... I also know that in the old testament he was continually trying to make it so that only righteous people were alive, same thing with the isralites

But my point is, you say that you know people that are "on fire" for Jesus, and that's proof that he's real. But those men on 9/11 sacrificed their lives for their beliefs, yet you don't accept them as proof. Why the double standard?

those men on 9/11 sacrificed themselves (and others) on the promise of 7 virgins in heaven

As I said above, god explicitly allows the beating of slaves:

as i said above i dont feel i know enough to comment on this topic

however the verse u so kindly supplied me with doesnt say anything about God encouraging beating of slaves... it is saying they will be judged if they do... and they will be punished for it... he 'allowed' it to happen because of FREE WILL

And if he wanted what was best for them, why didn't he tell the people he created that slavery is wrong??

did u notice many people paying attention to God in the old testament?? i didnt, they continually disobeyed him (i know leaders didnt)

When I was "really strong in my faith" was when I wasn't thinking. When I started thinking was when the world stopped making sense if Christianity were true.

u didnt start thiking, u stopped, here i am, thinking n replying to u posts as best i can and Christianity still makes perfect sense to me

I just couldn't understand how the Bible can be true when evolution has so much evidence, and how a loving God would demand so much kiilling, and how an eternal Hell can possibly be justified, and how any prayer I have could be anything but trivial compared to the starving children that God ignores, and how the Bible's blatant misogyny could be right, and why it was necessary for God to tack his son to the cross in order to forgive us, and more that I can't think of now.

did u speak to ur pastor? he(or she) could have given u some answers to these questions, i will do my best tho

God did not tack his son to the cross... it had to be Jesus' choice else we couldnt be foriven 'for God so loved the world...' Im sure u know that verse but it was also Jesus' choice, remeber him praying in some garden before he was betrayed i dont remember the exact words but somethign like, if it is your will let it be done... his choice

God doesnt ignore starving children, he just doesnt change it (back to free will) plus God gave us the land to manage... we stuffed it, not him

Under the assumption that God doesn't exist, there is a very simple answer to all of those doubts.

and that answer is?

Double standard, hypocrisy, blah blah. I shouldn't need to say it again.

did u seriously just call me a hypocrite??

You say "God has a greater plan" but I'm sure there are many people who died atheists because your God was unwilling to reveal himself to them.

wrong. i say God may have a greater plan

Yes it does. He put all the ingredients in place for Eve to commit the first sin. Saying God didn't create sin, is like saying I didn't make toast this morning because it was the toaster that did the toasting.

we are going round in circles... see prvious posts for an answer to this

So you're saying I'm not going to Hell? Sweet.

wrong. i am saying he is not going to judge u for something that is not ur fault... however it is your choice to not love Jesus

Okay fine. Try to believe that the Holocaust never happened. Can you do that?

I know the holocaust happened, just like i know God exists, because there is proof of both

So I went through a lengthy explanation of my feelings, and basically your answer is "Nuh-uh!" Sorry, you're gonna need more than that.

no u didnt go thru a lengthy explanation of ur feelings u gave me a couple of sentances... and my reply was, and still is, you did, and still do have a choice

But that is not scientific proof. The book Harry Potter is not proof that Harry Potter exists. Why the double standard? Muslims claim their prayers have been answered. Why the double standard? And your last "proof", well, that was just blatant circular reasoning.

we both have different satndards of what counts as proof and not, obviously

God created us with a sinful nature. Thus, God created sin. It's not that difficult of a concept to grasp.

God created us perfect then gave us free will, then we sinned, thus sinful nature was created, by us, not God, its not that difficult a concept to grasp

Why do you love him? Because he won't send you to Hell? So it really is out of fear?

i love him because he gave me a wonderful family and friends who are great support, he gave me money beyond my wildest dreams as i live in a priviliged country, have a roof over my head, food on the table and plenty of other luxuries besides (car, phone, etc) because i have two parents not one or none, because i am alive and healthy, because he is always with me, because he takes my troubles and throws them away, because he removes temptation, because he forgives, because he is there, and yes because i get to spend eternity with my best friend, because he is my best friend, because he died for me... that is huge... i am still trying to get round that he actually died for the mistakes, stuff ups and sins that i would do

Laura

 

[livingforGod135]

The manufacturer not liable nor at fault for a defect in a prototype going into serial production nonetheless? You must be joking.

no, no i am not joking, its not Gods fault that we sinned

 

[livingforGod135]

He died as an example of how we should die to ourselves.

so i should die on a cross? or i should die for good?

Basically taking the Godly path when faced with a moral decision.

yes Jesus teaches us this but he also died so we could be forgiven

It's the correct interpetation of what the bible already says.

no it is your interpretation of what the bible says... and by the way, u believ what the bible says? if so good

There is no trinity. The trinity is a myth.

the trinity is explained in the bible, so i guess now the bible is lying?

No.

'for God so love the world that he sent his only son to die for them, that none may perish but have eternal life' its from the bible... John i think

Most Christians don't believe so.

me neither... he is my saviour

If you love God, you obey him. There are many Christians who do not obey God, and are some of the most horrible people you could imagine.

yes there are horrible christians and nice non christians this does not count as reasoning that all 'nice' people got to heaven... proof in scripture maybe?? show me the scriptue u got it from n then tell me how u arrived at this conclusion...please

If you obey God, you love him. Non-Christians obey God all the time.

but not thru love of God

Whatever hell may be, it is not eternal.

but heaven is? makes no sense... are u saying that hell is a place of punishment for a set time and then u get to heaven?? both are eternal

Christians say that no one can be righteous.

Jesus?

There is only one God. The trinity as a representation of different parts or sides of God I could deal with.

yes only one God

congratulations

3 parts of this one God

-God the father
-God the son (Jesus)
-God the holy ghost

But the Christian belief of the Trinity separates these three aspects into 3 persons. Thus equaling polytheism.

all things are possible thru God

one God

3 parts

1 of these 'parts' sent to earth in the form of a man

Jesus died. The only thing that is in heaven is the messianic spirit that was in him, returned to God.

the bible tells us he was ressurected and asscended into heaven wether in his physical body or not, he does sit at the right side of God

Plus, heaven is a spiritual place. No physical being could exist there.

once again

all things are possible thru God

Evil is only the absence of good, or in this case, the absence of God.

that is one way of looking at it

That being said, I do believe in "satan", but only as a tool used by God to test us.

satan= fallen angel, manipulates, has free will, evil

is not a tool of God to test us, he doesnt need to test our faith, satan does it enough

I meant the core as in the doctrinal core, and the heart as in the truth that Christianity does possess.

doctrinal?

I believe "Christianity" was meant to be Judaism with the understanding of God as brought about by the messiah. Not a separate, radically different religion.

ah see now we have a problem i dont know much about judaism

so i dont see how it is radically different to begin with

Laura

 

[Theogonia]

so i should die on a cross? or i should die for good?

Please don't feign stupidity. I hate when people do that. Dying to yourself means denying your flesh in light of the righteous path.

yes Jesus teaches us this but he also died so we could be forgiven

People were forgiven before Jesus.

no it is your interpretation of what the bible says... and by the way, u believ what the bible says? if so good

Okay, but what makes my interpetation wrong and yours right?

the trinity is explained in the bible, so i guess now the bible is lying?

The bible says nothing of any kind of trinity.

yes there are horrible christians and nice non christians this does not count as reasoning that all 'nice' people got to heaven... proof in scripture maybe?? show me the scriptue u got it from n then tell me how u arrived at this conclusion...please

It's not "nice" non-Christians, it's righteous non-Christians.

but not thru love of God

There's no "love of God" rubbish. If you obey God, you love him. PERIOD.

but heaven is? makes no sense... are u saying that hell is a place of punishment for a set time and then u get to heaven?? both are eternal

Hell would be more of a testing grounds

Jesus?

Christians say that no one except Jesus can be righteous.

yes only one God

congratulations

3 parts of this one God

-God the father
-God the son (Jesus)
-God the holy ghost

God is not limited to only three.

all things are possible thru God

one God

3 parts

1 of these 'parts' sent to earth in the form of a man

The messianic spirit is in all of us.

the bible tells us he was ressurected and asscended into heaven wether in his physical body or not, he does sit at the right side of God

Metaphorically.

once again

all things are possible thru God

Can God make a square circle? Can God make 2+2=1?

Not within this realm.

is not a tool of God to test us, he doesnt need to test our faith, satan does it enough

No he doesn't. God uses satan to test us. Satan does nothing.

doctrinal?

Doctrine = code of teachings or beliefs that make up a religion.

 

[livingforGod135]

Please don't feign stupidity. I hate when people do that.

sorry; i didnt mean to offend u

Dying to yourself means denying your flesh in light of the righteous path.

what does this mean?

People were forgiven before Jesus.

really? like who?

Okay, but what makes my interpetation wrong and yours right?

everyone else agrees with me
just kidding
I just cant see how u get to these things from what is in the bible, I am trying to understand is all, maybe i am wrong, but then again, maybe you are, or maybe both of us

The bible says nothing of any kind of trinity.

my mistake, not in these words, but Jesus being (in your view) filled with the spirit of God and doing his work wouldnt go around lying would he

so when it is said he is the sone of God what do u suppose it means?
I mean in the bible even God says Jesus is his son 'this is my son with whom i am well pleased' i believe it is when Jesus gets baptised

and when he says he will get his loving father to send a holy ghost down to guide people once he is gone, what does that mean?

It's not "nice" non-Christians, it's righteous non-Christians.

what happened to righteousness not happening in humans?
and i thought u had defined righteous as living a godly way

how can someone who doesnt know God and thus doesnt love him live a godly way when one of the things God wants is our love?

There's no "love of God" rubbish. If you obey God, you love him. PERIOD.

wrong. I love God so i guess there is a love of God (which is a love for God) and God loves me 'for God so loved the world that he gave his only son that none may perish but have eternal life' the bible says he loves me so there is a love of God (that is love from God).

Hell would be more of a testing grounds

testing of faith??

proof?
scriptural, or otherwise and please tell me how u got to this conclusion

Christians say that no one except Jesus can be righteous.

well yeah, when u look at righteous meaning godly way of living meaning as a) God or b) perfect

and no human is God or perfect (except Jesus)

God is not limited to only three.

meaning u think there is more than 3 parts to God?

The messianic spirit is in all of us.

if that is what u are calling the holy spirit then yes

Metaphorically.

who are u and i to say wether it is meaphorically or not? the bible tells us Jesus was raised from the dead and asended into heaven and now sits at his fathers right side... metaphorically or literally, he is there and it is not up to us to take the bible twist it around and use it to support something we think is right, we know God is much bigger than us and we will never understand everything whilst we are human

personally i believe it is literally (because he comes back) but what u choose to believe is up 2 u

Can God make a square circle? Can God make 2+2=1?

yes

Not within this realm.

God created this realm so he can change the rules if he wants, i doubt very much he will take part in pointless exercises just to prove to u he can though

No he doesn't. God uses satan to test us. Satan does nothing.

once again, what the bible says on this is different to what u think

satan is a fallen angel, who chose to rebel against God, and now (because he was kicked out of heaven) he tries to destroy our relationships ith God

Doctrine = code of teachings or beliefs that make up a religion.

ah so in short u r saying u reject things like no sex b4 marrige? but u dont reject things like 'thou shall not kill'? but it is important to God that we are not sexually immoral too

Laura

 

[quatona]

no, no i am not joking, its not Gods fault that we sinned

But that clearly blows your own analogy out of the window: the entire analogy tells us that god is liable and at fault because the manufacturer is liable for construction faults.
Why do you write a long analogy when it supports the exact opposite of what you actually want to say and to explain?

 

[Theogonia]

what does this mean?

Lets say you come across someone that is badly hurt and in need of a doctor. The Godly path is to help them and take them to a hospital, the selfish path is to ignore them.

If you take the Godly path, you have just died to yourself. This is being born again.

really? like who?

Oh let's see, Moses, Abraham, all those people.

so when it is said he is the sone of God what do u suppose it means?
I mean in the bible even God says Jesus is his son 'this is my son with whom i am well pleased' i believe it is when Jesus gets baptised

We are all sons and daughters of God. Jesus even more so, because he had become one with God in spirit through obediance.

and when he says he will get his loving father to send a holy ghost down to guide people once he is gone, what does that mean?

The concept of the Trinity was created to help explain the nature of God. The "holy ghost" is God, just said in a way that is easier to understand than a panentheitic spiritual being that permeates all.

and i thought u had defined righteous as living a godly way

Yes.

[quote[how can someone who doesnt know God and thus doesnt love him live a godly way when one of the things God wants is our love?[/quote]

I'll say this yet again. If one truly loves his fellow man, he has love for God, because he loves God's spirit inside everyone. If those people live with true love, they know God even if they don't know God as you know him.

wrong. I love God so i guess there is a love of God (which is a love for God) and God loves me 'for God so loved the world that he gave his only son that none may perish but have eternal life' the bible says he loves me so there is a love of God (that is love from God).

Why is it important that we know God loves us? The bible says if you love God, you obey him.

testing of faith??

No.

proof?
scriptural, or otherwise and please tell me how u got to this conclusion

It is a theory of mine.

Here is the theory, and you have to look at reincarnation as being true.

My theory is that when one dies, to "get into heaven" their righteousness must have outweighed their sin, and their understanding and level of spirituality will be factored in. If one doesn't "make it into heaven", their spirit is sent back down to earth to live another lifetime. The spirit being sent back down to earth is the hell. Our spirits desire to go back to God. Sending them from him and forcing them into this physical body is like torture. However good our lives are, it is like torture to our spirits.

well yeah, when u look at righteous meaning godly way of living meaning as a) God or b) perfect

Righteous means Godlike. You don't have to be perfect to be Godlike.

meaning u think there is more than 3 parts to God?

There is no limit to God. He is everything, and in everything. All creation is a manifestation of God, and God is beyond. God is you, me, the earth, the universe, but more. To try and limit this to three parts is trying to fit God into a box, limit it to human understanding. This is of course the point of the idea of the Trinity, but the problem comes when people limit God to the trinity rather than using the idea merely to understand it.

who are u and i to say wether it is meaphorically or not? the bible tells us Jesus was raised from the dead and asended into heaven and now sits at his fathers right side... metaphorically or literally, he is there and it is not up to us to take the bible twist it around and use it to support something we think is right, we know God is much bigger than us and we will never understand everything whilst we are human

I know that flesh cannot exist where spirit does.

personally i believe it is literally (because he comes back) but what u choose to believe is up 2 u

The messianic return will be either one of two things:

#1: There is an outpouring of the spirit among all, and everyone will see the truth.

#2: The messianic spirit will be reincarnated into a new carrier, a new physical body.

I personally believe it's the latter. But I do know that Jesus is not going to ride down out of the clouds on a horse waving a sword.

yes

God created this realm so he can change the rules if he wants, i doubt very much he will take part in pointless exercises just to prove to u he can though

Do you understand physics? I don't but I know that you can't just change the rules of the universe on a whim. This entire world would collapse. God created the rules, but he must operate within the rules he created.

once again, what the bible says on this is different to what u think

Will you please read Job? This supports what I say exactly.

satan is a fallen angel, who chose to rebel against God, and now (because he was kicked out of heaven) he tries to destroy our relationships ith God

This story of satan is a myth. A fairytale.

ah so in short u r saying u reject things like no sex b4 marrige?

I listed out a lot of the things I reject but yeah, sort of.

but u dont reject things like 'thou shall not kill'? but it is important to God that we are not sexually immoral too

If it is actually sexually immoral, but this is not important and is beside the point.

 

[mophed20]

But that clearly blows your own analogy out of the window: the entire analogy tells us that god is liable and at fault because the manufacturer is liable for construction faults.
Why do you write a long analogy when it supports the exact opposite of what you actually want to say and to explain?

Quatona, her analogy proves nothing because it is merely an analogy. it is used to help explain it so you can wrap your mind around it a little more, not in order to prove it.

let me explain it this way. ok, some may know the passage somewhere in Romans where it talks about how the law made it so we knew sin, because we know what to do and what not to do. you really cannot have sinned if you didn't know what sin was to begin with. you may notice that adam and eve were sinless before they ate the fruit. you know why? because they did not know what good or evil was. it's like in 1984 (if you have read the book; if you haven't, it's an awesome book!) how the government was trying to change the language so they could control what their people did, because if there was not a word for love, there would be no such thing! God did not create sin! we did! it was by way of eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil!!! i don't understand why people can't understand the difference. it's a very basic Christian idea. God knew what was right and wrong, because He is God; He is all knowing, so He knows things that we do not have words to express. does this begin to shed light on the subject.

and regarding the Trinity. you are correct that the word "trinity" is not in the Bible. Kudos! however, the idea is still there. the term "Trinity" was made a term at one of the councils defending the Christian faith from the Arian and/or Nestorian heresies. they thought that the term Homoussios (sp.?of one essence.) was a good term to describe the relationship between the parts (could be a limiting term) of the Trinity. it's a newer word than the Christian Church.

Quote:
but not thru love of God
There's no "love of God" rubbish. If you obey God, you love him. PERIOD.

scotty, according to the God of the Bible, if you love God, you obey Him...not the other way around.

Quote:
once again

all things are possible thru God
Can God make a square circle? Can God make 2+2=1?

Not within this realm.

and why is that...? because you can't imagine a world where a square could be circle or 2 + 2 = 1? you're right that God cannot do that in this realm, but that is because our limited minds are stuck on our numbers and can't seem to think that there is reality outside of the "reality" that we sense with our 5 senses! we limit God, because we can't seem to have faith, or even come close to even wondering if 2 + 2 could equal 1!

and regarding the "metaphorically." statement. so, do you think it is any right of mine or your's to pick and choose which idea/theology/doctrine/term/etc. is and isn't a metaphor? i could understand in all these modern "translations" that water down a lot of the meaning how it would make a lot of it seem like it could be metaphorical, but i don't think you or i have a right to pick and choose metaphor from literal if you believe in the God of the Bible. if you believe in some other God, so be it, believe what you want, but there is no reason for making into metaphors anything we want, and making into literal ideas anything we want. it is contrary to the absolutist philosophy of Christianity. and i would even say it would be contrary to the Torah (although, some have said that the Jews scrambled to make changes in the prophecies after Jesus' days, and i don't know if that's true, or just a way to attack the Jewish religion. though it does seem like a Pharisaical thing to do...to cover the Truths' footsteps...) history will tell. and all wrongs will be made right by the righteous Judge!

 

[quatona]

Quatona, her analogy proves nothing because it is merely an analogy. it is used to help explain it so you can wrap your mind around it a little more, not in order to prove it.

I don´t expect an analogy to prove anything, but I expect it not to clearly demonstrate the opposite of what it is supposed to demonstrate.
I have wrapped my mind around it, and the inconsistency of "God was the creator, but is not liable for his creation" was not explained, rather it was pointed out, and in the end there has to be a long-winded and confuse explanation as to what the analogy is meant to say although it clearly says the opposite.

 

[livingforGod135]

But that clearly blows your own analogy out of the window: the entire analogy tells us that god is liable and at fault because the manufacturer is liable for construction faults.
Why do you write a long analogy when it supports the exact opposite of what you actually want to say and to explain?

i didnt write it, i read it a while ago and found it to be pretty cool

the analogy though states that God is not at fault

if it says that maybe it is a typo on my part... i'll have a look in a sec

Laura

 

[mophed20]

how can you wrap your mind around the One who gave you the mind to wrap around Him? (i won't use an analogy, because it won't prove my point.) you atheists (speaking generally, so correct me if you do not subscribe to this) complain about inability to logically explain/understand God, but it is preposterous to think that the creation (who cannot create matter out of nothingness) can fathom or even scratch the surface on who the creator (who has created the mind that attempts to fathom Him) is. you gotta understand where we are coming from, it's almost a tie, cause most (if not all...) Christians think atheistic logic is poor, and atheists think Christian logic is poor....how do we reconcile either? or can we?

now onto God's lack of responsibility for evil: did you read what i had to say on the issue? cause i don't recall seeing anyone else mentioning it, but it's so basic to Christianity, it boggles the mind why it wouldn't be stated, and understood!

 

[quatona]

i didnt write it, i read it a while ago and found it to be pretty cool

the analogy though states that God is not at fault

The analogy is bringing up a situation in which the manufacturer clearly is at fault.
It then simply makes a blanket claim that in this case the manufacturer is not at fault.
That´s the problem. The analogy fails to explain the salient point, and then simply claims it doesn´t. An analogy that doesn´t explain what it is meant to explain and simply repeats the claim against all that the analogy suggests is pointless.
If you received this very message from a manufacturer of a faulty unit, you would of cause consider the manufacturer liable and at fault for producing a faulty product line (even more since he admits that the fault has already been observed in the prototype). The claim of the manufacturer that he is not liable nor at fault for his products would be invalid, inacceptable and a farce (by virtue of common sense as well as any legislation I know of).

 

[quatona]

how can you wrap your mind around the One who gave you the mind to wrap around Him? (i won't use an analogy, because it won't prove my point.) you atheists (speaking generally, so correct me if you do not subscribe to this) complain about inability to logically explain/understand God, but it is preposterous to think that the creation (who cannot create matter out of nothingness) can fathom or even scratch the surface on who the creator (who has created the mind that attempts to fathom Him) is. you gotta understand where we are coming from, it's almost a tie, cause most (if not all...) Christians think atheistic logic is poor, and atheists think Christian logic is poor....how do we reconcile either? or can we?

now onto God's lack of responsibility for evil: did you read what i had to say on the issue? cause i don't recall seeing anyone else mentioning it, but it's so basic to Christianity, it boggles the mind why it wouldn't be stated, and understood!

All I tried to wrap my mind around was the analogy presented by the poster, and it failed to be analogous in the salient point. Which makes it utterly useless for the purpose of shedding light on the salient point.

 

[quatona]

now onto God's lack of responsibility for evil: did you read what i had to say on the issue? cause i don't recall seeing anyone else mentioning it, but it's so basic to Christianity, it boggles the mind why it wouldn't be stated, and understood!

Yes, I tried to read it, but it seemed to be unstructured, confuse and full of non-sequiturs to me (blame it on the fact that I am not a native English speaker). It would have taken me a lot of effort to even only try to make some sense of it.
Whatever, all I meant to do was pointing out that and how the analogy was flawed in the salient point. Notwithstanding that there might be better explanations.

 

[mophed20]

"Notwithstanding that there might be better explanations. "

that's all i really wanted to hear! thank you!

 

[quatona]

"Notwithstanding that there might be better explanations. "

that's all i really wanted to hear! thank you!

Well, what made you think that I was intending to make a point beyond the point I made, in the first place?

 

[m9lc]

maybe he was saying 'be patient' I dont know... I am not God, so maybe u should take this up with him?

also I think that although God will be with us to help get us out of any particular mess we have got ourseles in, he wont just get rid of it without us doing anything

doesnt mean he cant... but it was our choice to get into the mess and has to be our choice (and work) to get out of it

"God can I love you?"
"No. Wait a while."

Doesn't make much sense to me. It just doesn't seem like a "be patient" issue to me.

proof?

as it was said would happen

I was being sarcastic. Look, Christianity is by far the most-loved religion in the world. Saying there's a "war on Christianity" is silly. If there were a war on Christianity, then we wouldn't have "In God We Trust" on our money and "Under God" in our pledge, and there wouldn't even be a debate on gay marriage legalization.

Not only is it not being persecuted, a significant number of people are trying to legislate Christianity. Are you really suggesting that every single Christian magazine, every single Christian radio talk show, every single Christian website, are all this whole conspiracy run by secret non-Christians trying to cover up the truth?

well it seems that it is possible u wouldnt hear about it (before me telling u) because i know the person i heared this off wouldnt lie... and before u say who did he get it off... i believe it was someone who was there, and he wouldnt have repeated it if he thought the source was unreliable

Wait, wait... so:

1) You claim someone was raised from the dead.
2) You say that every single Christian media outlet is all a giant conspiracy that is run by non-Christians.
3) You got this is thirdhand testimony.

Does it seem unrealistic that I'm a tad skeptical?

I know... the first 5 books are almost identical, right?

So why do you assert it's false and Christianity is true?

why should i have to keep justifying this to you? you continually shoot down any explanation i give u, I can believe this stuff because i have faith

I haven't seen one explanation for it yet. If humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, why aren't there human fossils?

yes free will... u seem to be getting it now and you have made it perfectly obvious that u dont care, so why do you continue to ask questions like u actually do... or are u actually trying to 'save' me from these 'false' beliefs? if so i have to say... very Christian of u!!!

It just angers me when people don't think.

and God did put restrictions on satan... he doesnt have the power to end lives... but he does manipulate things to make them look like evidence against God

You don't say he manipulates evidence, you say that he created the evidence and made it very valid and believable to say that God doesn't exist. No loving God that wants me to believe in him would allow that.

I dont feel i am the right person t give a good reply to this as I dont know much about the topic, but i do feel that whatever has, or will happen(ed) God has his own reasons

But that's the thing. How can you just accept something like that without thinking about it? If you want to worship a God that condones these things, it seems like it's a very important issue that you think to yourself about why you do.

we inherit our parents sin

Well, crap, my great-grandfather supported Naziism. I'm screwed.

not religion, not christianity, people, claiming to be religious

Why do you say that? God orders all sorts of war and killing in the Bible. How do you know that God wasn't really telling Queen Isabella to kill all the Protestants? How do you know that God wasn't really telling the Popes to endorse the Crusades?

well i heard it off my science teacher in school

universe expanding isnt the same as the big bang theory... where is the bang?

It's just something that can be derived from common sense. If the universe is expanding, it's natural to assume that it was once all in one spot. There's no reason that for some reason the whole universe would just change direction spontaneously.

maybe it was... maybe God started it expanding

So you're saying that Genesis was all just metaphorical. I don't know about you, but it just seems odd that any part of the Bible that is blatantly false is labeled "metaphorical".

If that's the case, how do we know what's metaphorical and what's literal? What if the resurrection story is just metaphorical? What if the whole concept of God is just metaphorical?

still a rock.

If the only fact you have in a creationism vs. evolutionism debate that you have is "It's just a rock", then you need to do some more research.

dude i have studied evolution so dont down talk me and tell me i cant 'grasp' it

You've studied it, so you should know how much sense the theory makes. Just at the barebones analysis: Genetic mutation happens, the bad ones die, the good ones keep living and reproduce, and eventually over hundreds of millions of years you get what we have today. It just makes sense logically.

yes plenty of lies, manipulations and misinterpretations... and by the way there is evidence for creation too

for instance: the grand canyon: a whole lot of water made it how it is... scientists say rain fro over the years but dont u think it could also have been one biiiiiiig flood?

Do you have any reason to believe it was a big flood?

doesnt 'overwhelm' these so called small gaps for me... gaps are gaps no matter what the size... and before u say it FAITH overrides the gaps (that u will no doubt find) in creation

Faith makes such a good mechanism to make a religion unquestionable. You can bring any point before a Christian and often it eventually just comes to them saying "It just takes faith".

I just realized: The process of religions forming is kind of like evolution. Christianity has "mutations" like the need for faith, and a terrible eternal Hell for disbelief, which has caused "natural selection", making it a very popular religious belief.

not a theory... but here goes

just because he was ressurected it doesnt make him a zombie... and what does cosmic mean?
yes he was jewish, so what?

Creator of the cosmos, "zombie" is just ridiculing the idea of resurrection, and Jewish is just a description.

u have to fully understand the trinity before u start arguing about it and pretending u understand

Just doesn't make much sense why Jesus would say "Father, why have you forsaken me" when they are the same person.

eternal life is gauranteed... just where u spend it is what is different... but yes he can 'make' u abe to live in heaven for eternity

i presume u are talking about communion?? if so u missed out the 'drink his blood' part and communion isnt something u have to do to be a christian

Just a random paganistic-rooted ritual that seems pointless.

prayer is not telepathy as u well know

Main Entry: te·lep·a·thy
Pronunciation: t&-'le-p&-thE
Function: noun
: communication from one mind to another by extrasensory means

sin is not removed from us until we stand before him, made perfect in his image

woman was created from man, yes using one of adams ribs... this doesnt make eve a rib-woman, she was the first woman and a proper one at that

also, by this explanation, does this make adam, a 'dust man'?

Yeah... both explanations for the creation of man and woman are pretty silly.

serpent actually... if ur gonna argue like this at the very least get it right

Serpents are snakes. And they can't talk.

the tree of life... it was the first sin... as u know

And why did God put the Tree of Knowledge there?

actually no... its more realistic than what u believe... 'once the universe was nothing and then it just happened'

You don't think the universe could come out of nothing. That being the case, isn't it even less plausible that a God who is even more complex, could just come out of nothing?

i know nothing at all about roman mythology, so i cant comment on this topic but i know the bible to be the truth

Well you should read it. Since you think anything written in an old book must be true, then I assume you'll accept it as real?

u seriously expect God to reveal himself to all?

Why not? I bought into that whole "You need faith" thing until I started thinking, and I'm yet to come up with a reason why a loving God would require you to believe in him without any proof, in order to spend eternity with him.

well there will be plenty of proof that u need in the end times

What about atheists who die before the endtimes?

and its not God cant its God chooses not to... same as u choose to not believe

dont take me for supid of course i know the story of noahs ark... I also know that in the old testament he was continually trying to make it so that only righteous people were alive, same thing with the isralites

I'm just saying, as a Christian, you have no place to say "Why would a loving God want so many people dead?"

those men on 9/11 sacrificed themselves (and others) on the promise of 7 virgins in heaven

And they truly knew it, didn't they? You don't believe that they're right though.

But for some reason, other Christians truly know that they're right, and you take that as total, 100% proof of Christianity.

as i said above i dont feel i know enough to comment on this topic

however the verse u so kindly supplied me with doesnt say anything about God encouraging beating of slaves... it is saying they will be judged if they do... and they will be punished for it... he 'allowed' it to happen because of FREE WILL

Oh, oops, I thought it was just the one verse where God says it's OK to beat slaves. Let me give you the whole paragraph:

[bible]Exodus 21:20-23[/bible]

God very explicitly allows slave-beating as long as you don't kill the slave. He says it's just fine, since the slave is your property.

did u notice many people paying attention to God in the old testament?? i didnt, they continually disobeyed him (i know leaders didnt)

Yet God still couldn't have just told them it was wrong? Even if they didn't obey him, shouldn't he at least have not supported it?

u didnt start thiking, u stopped, here i am, thinking n replying to u posts as best i can and Christianity still makes perfect sense to me

Yet most of your responses consist of "I can't really argue this, but I have faith". That's not really thinking.

did u speak to ur pastor? he(or she) could have given u some answers to these questions, i will do my best tho

God did not tack his son to the cross... it had to be Jesus' choice else we couldnt be foriven 'for God so loved the world...' Im sure u know that verse but it was also Jesus' choice, remeber him praying in some garden before he was betrayed i dont remember the exact words but somethign like, if it is your will let it be done... his choice

Doesn't make much sense when Jesus and God are the same person. Not to mention, it doesn't make much sense how Jesus's few hours of suffering could make up for billions of people's eternities in Hell.

God doesnt ignore starving children, he just doesnt change it (back to free will) plus God gave us the land to manage... we stuffed it, not him

I recall a miracle of Jesus feeding 5,000 people with only 2 fish and a loaf of bread in the Gospels. Why did he do that, yet God can't feed the children today?

and that answer is?

Under the assumption that God doesn't exist, all of those questions have a simple answer: "Because the Bible isn't true, it was written by a bunch of power-hungry, sexist, homophobic old men."

did u seriously just call me a hypocrite??

Yes. You don't believe Islam is true, even though there are billions that are totally sure it is true. Yet since you and some other people are totally sure Christianity is true, you take that as proof of it.

wrong. i say God may have a greater plan

So those atheists are in Heaven now?

we are going round in circles... see prvious posts for an answer to this

wrong. i am saying he is not going to judge u for something that is not ur fault... however it is your choice to not love Jesus

I know the holocaust happened, just like i know God exists, because there is proof of both

So you're admitting that you have no control over what you believe?

no u didnt go thru a lengthy explanation of ur feelings u gave me a couple of sentances... and my reply was, and still is, you did, and still do have a choice

No, it's not a choice. Again, can you simply choose not to believe the Holocaust happened?

we both have different satndards of what counts as proof and not, obviously

Well then, explain your different standards. How is the Bible any more proof of God than the book series is proof of Harry Potter?

 

[m9lc]

God created us perfect then gave us free will, then we sinned, thus sinful nature was created, by us, not God, its not that difficult a concept to grasp

Yeah it is. God created every single facet of us, and he created our sinful nature. He put the ingredients in place to commit the first sin (i.e. he put the tree there, he allowed Satan to roam free rather than just destroying him). God is totally at fault for sin.

i love him because he gave me a wonderful family and friends who are great support, he gave me money beyond my wildest dreams as i live in a priviliged country, have a roof over my head, food on the table and plenty of other luxuries besides (car, phone, etc) because i have two parents not one or none, because i am alive and healthy,

So when you are lucky enough to be born in a rich country, it's "God's blessings", but when children starve and die, it's "free will"? A tad bit of a double standard, wouldn't you say?

because he is always with me, because he takes my troubles and throws them away, because he removes temptation, because he forgives, because he is there, and yes because i get to spend eternity with my best friend, because he is my best friend, because he died for me... that is huge... i am still trying to get round that he actually died for the mistakes, stuff ups and sins that i would do

Basically, all things that he does to keep you from Hell... while he may do those things for you, he ignores me and many others.

 

[E.C.]

I know this thread is several weeks old, however due to my laziness, I will ignore everything between the original thread and this one.

Ok, Virginia Tech. Now just where was our all loving, all powerful, and all knowing Creator during this? Well, if the God you all know and love truely existed, this is how He would have handled this recent massicare. (And all others)

1. He would *know* about this horrific event before it even occured, as He is all knowing.

2. He would *love* everyone involved so much, He would not want to end their beautiful short lives so soon. As God is all knowing.

3. He would be *powerful* enough to stop this event from happening. He would have the power to help the killer with his mental problems, before the guy goes and kill 32 of God's children, and himself. As God is all powerful.

Now, none of these things happened, during *any* massicare. It's almost as if there is no god at all...and maybe we need to realize that.

Where was God? Right with the victims.

Yes, God is loving, powerful and all knowing, but to demand that God out of his love use his power and knowledge to stop something is near lunacy. It is demanding that God do something and give nothing in return.

Do you treat your younger brother as a slave and never thank him? Do you demand that your parents give you a free car and insurance just because you feel you've earned it?


Did you ever see the film "Jesus Camp"? Well, at one part of it, this lady is "praying over seats and the projector and the powerpoint". Now, she is demanding that God keep the computer equipment from fritzing out. She was abusing God. Asking that He protect someone traveling is one thing, but to abuse Him over insignificant things like that is also: near lunacy.

That is what I see you doing. The only difference is you are blaming God for what happened in Virginia. He allows things to happen for a reason. Whatever that reason may be, we may never know.

Besides, I'm sure that the people are in a better place now.

 

[E.C.]

Yeah it is. God created every single facet of us, and he created our sinful nature. He put the ingredients in place to commit the first sin (i.e. he put the tree there, he allowed Satan to roam free rather than just destroying him). God is totally at fault for sin.

He may have put the tree there, but who ate the apple?

Basically, all things that he does to keep you from Hell... while he may do those things for you, he ignores me and many others.

How do you know this?