The Global Flood

[Jase]

assuming God did not write the Bible, which you cannot prove.

Well, you can't prove a negative. But Bible talk is off topic unless it's specifically in reference to the flood.

 

[JohnR7]

Well, you can't prove a negative. But Bible talk is off topic unless it's specifically in reference to the flood.

The Bible is never off topic, but we usually do not get into Apologetics because they have another forum for that.

• 
  General Apologetics

 

[caravelair]

assuming God did not write the Bible, which you cannot prove.

that makes no sense as a response to what i wrote. i am not assuming anything here.

 

[Jase]

The Bible is never off topic, but we usually do not get into Apologetics because they have another forum for that.

• 
  General Apologetics

This is a science forum John, so yes, unless the Biblical reference is to the flood or interpretation of Genesis, the validity or authorship of the Bible is off topic here.

 

[JohnR7]

that makes no sense as a response to what i wrote. i am not assuming anything here.

I am just trying to follow your logic, which you just admited does not make any sense. When you try to follow it thought to it's logical conclusion it makes no sense.

This is a science forum. Science tell us that they can not prove the Bible is true, nor can they prove the Bible is not true. So our choice is if we accept or reject science. You can not pick and choose, it is all one way or the other.

Actually, in terms of History quite a bit of the Bible has been proven to be true over the last few hundred years using archeology. There is no history book written that is more accurate than the Bible is.

 

[JohnR7]

This is a science forum John, so yes, unless the Biblical reference is to the flood or interpretation of Genesis, the validity or authorship of the Bible is off topic here.

The Bible is not off topic. That is why Christians Forums is here on the Internet. To be a witness and a testimony for the Bible and for God. There are over 150 moderators. There are a lot of people that put a lot of effort into this.

 

[PETE_]

I'd like to have a discussion about the alleged Global Flood and it's problems.

Now from what I understand and used to believe when I was a YEC, most creationists claim the flood occurred within the last 10,000 years. They also claim that all geological events were associated with it. That is things like mountain building, the separation of pangea, limestone calcification, magma cooling, asteroid impacts, valley formation, glacier formation, etc. etc.

Now I'm going to just look at one problem associated with all of this. That is the problem of heat. The detailed explanation can be found here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#flood

Let's just look at limestone calcification. Based on the amount of limestone found in the Earth's sediment and the amount of heat the process of calcification releases, if only 10% of the limestone on the Earth formed during the flood it would release 5.6 X 10^26 joules of energy. That's enough heat to boil all the flood waters.

Now we look at magma cooling. If the magma on the Earth all cooled from the flood waters, we get a heat release of 5.4 X 10^27 joules of heat, and this isn't counting the amount of heat given off by magma crystallization. That amount of joules of heat is enough to vaporize all the water on the Earth. This in turn would cause steam to rise, raising the air temperature to 1000 degrees Celsius. That's hot enough to boil off the atmosphere, which in turn would cause the rays of the sun to fry the surface of the Earth. If we still had an atmosphere, there would be so much heat contained by it, that it would make the Earth too hot to exist on. It takes millions of years to radiate that kind of heat with an atmosphere.

Now, I just referred to 2 events - magma cooling, and limestone calcification. I'd imagine when you throw in asteroid impacts, and continents colliding hard enough to raise the Earth 30,000 feet in less than a year, it would release enough energy to liquify the lithosphere.

Now remember, I'm just looking at the heat issue. There are certainly other problems to contend with. Now one has to ask how Noah survived such extreme temperatures. If G-d supernaturally protected him, what was the point of the Ark?

And of course, why would G-d go to such great lengths for this? He would literally be breaking every natural law he created in order to do this. Why liquify the entire Earth, making it uninhabitable for billions of years to come, even for the 8 people found righteous, just to kill off some localized biological beings? Doesn't that seem just a bit overkill? Confucius' famous line rings quite true here: "do not use cannon to kill mosquito".

G-d used the angel of death during Exodus. That would have been far more practical to do for the flood. The Bible never mentions G-d doing that many miracles to not only allow the earth and Noah and the animals to survive, but also to clean up the whole mess for after he gets off the ark, only to leave no remnants of the whole event.

Someone more knowledgable here may be able to give us an idea, but I'd imagine the heat released from all of those events, in order to fit the geological events within a year or less would be enough to disintegrate the entire planet. It doesn't seem necessary for G-d to go to those lengths. It just makes no sense.

Any thoughts and additions?

God's power in executing His plan for this world is truely amazing.

 

[caravelair]

I am just trying to follow your logic, which you just admited does not make any sense. When you try to follow it thought to it's logical conclusion it makes no sense.

no john, what you wrote was a non-sequitor, not following a thought through to its logical conclusion. what i said was that his position depends on the assumption that god wrote the bible. how does that statement about his position rely on any assumptions? it doesn't.

 

[JohnR7]

what i said was that his position depends on the assumption that god wrote the bible.

What you said was: "assuming god wrote the bible, which you cannot prove."

So your point is that non christians do not accept the authority of the Bible, is that right? Is that your point?

You said "you cannot prove" that God wrote the Bible. If that it true, then it is just as much true that you cannot prove that God did NOT write the Bible.

 

[steen]

So no creationist can provide a meaningful account of the heat issue raised in the OP and the added issues further down in the tread. All we see are handwaving and off-topic desperate distractions, right (I can't really tell, as I got the two most prolific creationists here on ignore)?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

What you said was: "assuming god wrote the bible, which you cannot prove."

So your point is that non christians do not accept the authority of the Bible, is that right? Is that your point?

You said "you cannot prove" that God wrote the Bible. If that it true, then it is just as much true that you cannot prove that God did NOT write the Bible.

So if God wrote the Bible why didn't he write it clearly enough so that all literalists can agree whether the flood was global or local?

F.B.

 

[JohnR7]

So if God wrote the Bible why didn't he write it clearly enough so that all literalists can agree whether the flood was global or local?

Because God wanted to make it clear who is and who is not approved. So there would be no question as to who does and who does not represent God.

2 Tim. 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Jase]

Because God wanted to make it clear who is and who is not approved. So there would be no question as to who does and who does not represent God.

2 Tim. 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So in other words, United States bible belt fundamentalists represent God, but the other 2+ billion Christians on Earth don't?

 

[Beastt]

So if God wrote the Bible why didn't he write it clearly enough so that all literalists can agree whether the flood was global or local?

Because God wanted to make it clear who is and who is not approved. So there would be no question as to who does and who does not represent God.

So God made this clear by not striving for clarity?

 

[livingword26]

So if God wrote the Bible why didn't he write it clearly enough so that all literalists can agree whether the flood was global or local?

F.B.

Its actually quite clear to anyone who wants to believe it.

Gen 7:15-24
(15) And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
(16) And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
(17) And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.
(18) And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
(19) And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
(20) Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
(21) And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
(22) All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
(23) And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
(24) And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.

 

[KerrMetric]

Its actually quite clear to anyone who wants to believe it.

Gen 7:15-24
(15) And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
(16) And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
(17) And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.
(18) And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
(19) And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
(20) Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
(21) And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
(22) All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
(23) And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
(24) And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.

But we are discussing real history not that mythological story.

 

[livingword26]

But we are discussing real history not that mythological story.

My apologies, I thoutht the discussion was of truth.

 

[Beastt]

Its actually quite clear to anyone who wants to believe it.

Gen 7:15-24
(15) And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
(16) And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
(17) And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.
(18) And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
(19) And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
(20) Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
(21) And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
(22) All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
(23) And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
(24) And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.

And that, little Virginia, is why there are no fish or marine mammals on the Earth today.

Ooops! ​

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

My apologies, I thoutht the discussion was of truth.

The truth is that the global flood is falsified by geology, paleontology, biodiversity, biogeography and archeology, not to mention the simple physics that shows the impossibility of producing sufficient water for such a flood. You can argue with JohnR-7 about whether scripture calls for a local or global flood but every aspect of science that has been applied to the problem shows that a global flood did not occur at least in the last several hundred million years.

F.B.

 

[Beastt]

My apologies, I thoutht the discussion was of truth.

Am I to take it that you're assuming a difference between "real history" and "truth"?