The Gift of God

[Soyeong]

To use an analogy, if a professional musician were to teach me how to play an instrument as free gift to me, then their training would itself be the content of their free gift, and participating in that training would do nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it would look like to receive it, and our salvation is the same type of free gift that involves graciously being taught by God. So our obedience to the Mosaic Law does not earn our salvation, but rather being taught to obey it is itself the content of God's free gift of salvation.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do, so again God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of His free gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what the free gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like.

In Romans 6:19-23, presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the free gift of God. So being a slave to God and to righteousness by obeying the Mosaic Law is again the content of the free gift. Likewise, in John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is again the free gift of God and what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to experientially know Christ, which is the free gift of salvation.

 

[GDL]

God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of His free gift of salvation

I'm just picking out a sentence here in order to quote you for conversation.

Over the past 3+ decades I've done a lot of reading and studies on "His law." When I entered The Faith, after wandering around a bit experiencing different congregations & watching & listening to "preachers," it just looked to me like Christianity was pretty much a free for all (in the anything goes kind of way). One of my immediate interests became God's standards, thus His Law.

I've read how students of the Word (some call them "scholars") attempt to find a label other than "Mosaic Law" since certain parts of Moses have been changed (e.g. to facilitate the High Priesthood of Messiah). I've read how some try a focus on God's Law since it's evident His Law predated written codification with Moses. Others want to try to use the Law of Christ vs. the Mosaic Law title. Then we get into the 613 commandments listed by Maimonides, or the 10 Commandments being all we need. And we get into the writing of His Law on hearts under the NC. And so on it goes...

A few questions for you:

When you speak of living Mosaic Law ("ML"):

1. What are all the commandments of ML?

2. What precisely in ML is applicable & no longer applicable - what is lawful vs. lawlessness, all righteousness vs. unrighteousness?

3. Are both Jews & Gentiles in Christ subject to all the same commandments?

4. What specifically is the "Law of Christ" spoken of in Gal6?

5. What precisely is the "law of liberty/freedom" and "royal law" spoken of by James?

6. Since our maturity is spoken of in part in Heb5:13-14 as becoming learned/skilled in God's "Word of Righteousness" and thereby having our faculties well-exercised in judging both good & bad, what do you study to be developed in such maturity - the above, and/or other things?

7. Do you see this development to maturity taking place via study or do you see it just being downloaded (so to speak) such as with those who think there is some special relationship with the Spirit that they have, and/or who think that God speaks to them what they need to know?
​

That's a start.

Thanks!

​

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'm just picking out a sentence here in order to quote you for conversation.

Over the past 3+ decades I've done a lot of reading and studies on "His law." When I entered The Faith, after wandering around a bit experiencing different congregations & watching & listening to "preachers," it just looked to me like Christianity was pretty much a free for all (in the anything goes kind of way). One of my immediate interests became God's standards, thus His Law.

I've read how students of the Word (some call them "scholars") attempt to find a label other than "Mosaic Law" since certain parts of Moses have been changed (e.g. to facilitate the High Priesthood of Messiah). I've read how some try a focus on God's Law since it's evident His Law predated written codification with Moses. Others want to try to use the Law of Christ vs. the Mosaic Law title. Then we get into the 613 commandments listed by Maimonides, or the 10 Commandments being all we need. And we get into the writing of His Law on hearts under the NC. And so on it goes...

A few questions for you:

When you speak of living Mosaic Law ("ML"):

1. What are all the commandments of ML?

2. What precisely in ML is applicable & no longer applicable - what is lawful vs. lawlessness, all righteousness vs. unrighteousness?

3. Are both Jews & Gentiles in Christ subject to all the same commandments?

4. What specifically is the "Law of Christ" spoken of in Gal6?

5. What precisely is the "law of liberty/freedom" and "royal law" spoken of by James?

6. Since our maturity is spoken of in part in Heb5:13-14 as becoming learned/skilled in God's "Word of Righteousness" and thereby having our faculties well-exercised in judging both good & bad, what do you study to be developed in such maturity - the above, and/or other things?

7. Do you see this development to maturity taking place via study or do you see it just being downloaded (so to speak) such as with those who think there is some special relationship with the Spirit that they have, and/or who think that God speaks to them what they need to know?
​

That's a start.

Thanks!

​

Hello GDL,

I am actually glad you popped over here to say hello. I did not want to get in the way of your conversation here and your questions with @Soyeong, I just wanted to welcome you here and to let you know I enjoyed reading some of your posts in Bible Highlighters thread in the General Forum.

Sadly he had me banned from his thread, and my posts deleted, claiming I was trying to side track his OP when I was only providing scripture showing that all of God's 10 commandments from the old testament are repeated in the new testament therefore should be considered a part of the conversation.

Not discussing them in my view would have been restricting the conversation and hiding God's truth. Anyhow, no big deal I guess I did not plan on staying there anyway if no one wanted to discuss all the word of God. Anyhow welcome! Hope we can be good friends and have many friendly discussions sharing God's Word so we can all grow closer to Jesus.

God bless.

 

[GDL]

God bless.

Thanks for this.

I've read with interest many of your posts. The banning & deletions thing from the other thread is a bit odd. As I expressed earlier in that thread, I personally didn't want to get into Sabbath issues there, because of the debates that usually ensue. As it turned out, I ended up in a bit of a debate about affection in love, of all things. But the thread topic is of great interest to me as I've done a lot of personal studies and some teachings on NC commands.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see where this goes with Soyeong, whom I normally enjoy reading. Another good topic based upon the content of the OP. Anything that deals with the full scope of salvation from sin is always of interest. Pretty much goes along with the interest in His commands and our associated faith/obedience/love.

Thanks again!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm just picking out a sentence here in order to quote you for conversation.

Over the past 3+ decades I've done a lot of reading and studies on "His law." When I entered The Faith, after wandering around a bit experiencing different congregations & watching & listening to "preachers," it just looked to me like Christianity was pretty much a free for all (in the anything goes kind of way). One of my immediate interests became God's standards, thus His Law.

I've read how students of the Word (some call them "scholars") attempt to find a label other than "Mosaic Law" since certain parts of Moses have been changed (e.g. to facilitate the High Priesthood of Messiah). I've read how some try a focus on God's Law since it's evident His Law predated written codification with Moses. Others want to try to use the Law of Christ vs. the Mosaic Law title. Then we get into the 613 commandments listed by Maimonides, or the 10 Commandments being all we need. And we get into the writing of His Law on hearts under the NC. And so on it goes...

A few questions for you:

When you speak of living Mosaic Law ("ML"):

1. What are all the commandments of ML?

2. What precisely in ML is applicable & no longer applicable - what is lawful vs. lawlessness, all righteousness vs. unrighteousness?

3. Are both Jews & Gentiles in Christ subject to all the same commandments?

4. What specifically is the "Law of Christ" spoken of in Gal6?

5. What precisely is the "law of liberty/freedom" and "royal law" spoken of by James?

6. Since our maturity is spoken of in part in Heb5:13-14 as becoming learned/skilled in God's "Word of Righteousness" and thereby having our faculties well-exercised in judging both good & bad, what do you study to be developed in such maturity - the above, and/or other things?

7. Do you see this development to maturity taking place via study or do you see it just being downloaded (so to speak) such as with those who think there is some special relationship with the Spirit that they have, and/or who think that God speaks to them what they need to know?
​

That's a start.

Thanks!

​

Welcome GDL!

You are right to seek the truth in the Bible and follow the true teachings of scriptures. If you believe in God you believe in Satan and until there is a new earth we have to deal with all the nonsense that comes along with Satan trying to confuse the Word of God anyway he can. The best thing to do is pray and ask God for guidance to seek His true word, which it sounds like you're doing.

God has 10 commandments and they are found in Exodus 20. This scripture is the only scripture in the entire Bible written by God. He not only spoke them, He wrote them with His own finger to show how important His commandments are. If you read each and every one of them you will see how they applied from the beginning, how they apply today and how they will apply tomorrow. They are eternal.

Moses law was written by Moses and it helped the Jews during the time of wilderness. An example of a law of Moses 1 Corinthians 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.” Is it oxen God is concerned about? Throughout the Bible, it tells us how to love God, how to know God how God has mercy and it all leads back to keeping His commandments. I would be happy to provide you the scriptures for these later if you want.

The commandments of God are the perfect way to live. The first 4 commandments tells us how to love and obey God and the last 6 are how we are to love each other. God also tells us what foods are heathy for us and which ones to avoid. The Bible is an amazing book, the more you seek, the more you find. God bless

 

[Greengardener]

Hi Soyeong, GDL, Imge, and LovesGodsWord. I'm looking forward to Soyeong when she answers and appreciate all of you posting such encouraging messages.

GDL, I'm particularly curious how you yourself would answer your last question, 7. Do you see this development to maturity taking place via study or do you see it just being downloaded (so to speak) such as with those who think there is some special relationship with the Spirit that they have, and/or who think that God speaks to them what they need to know? What has your experience been? I'd be interested to hear.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm just picking out a sentence here in order to quote you for conversation.

Over the past 3+ decades I've done a lot of reading and studies on "His law." When I entered The Faith, after wandering around a bit experiencing different congregations & watching & listening to "preachers," it just looked to me like Christianity was pretty much a free for all (in the anything goes kind of way). One of my immediate interests became God's standards, thus His Law.

I've read how students of the Word (some call them "scholars") attempt to find a label other than "Mosaic Law" since certain parts of Moses have been changed (e.g. to facilitate the High Priesthood of Messiah). I've read how some try a focus on God's Law since it's evident His Law predated written codification with Moses. Others want to try to use the Law of Christ vs. the Mosaic Law title. Then we get into the 613 commandments listed by Maimonides, or the 10 Commandments being all we need. And we get into the writing of His Law on hearts under the NC. And so on it goes...

Hello,

I use "His law" in a way that is interchangeable with the Mosaic Law because all of it was given by God (Deuteronomy 5:31-33). Likewise, the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), and with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). The way to testify about God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on any particular covenant, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to testify about His nature are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, so I deny that any part of the Mosaic Law has been changed.

In Deuteronomy 4:2 it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying His law. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came not to abolish the law and warned against relaxing the least part of the law or teaching others to do the same. So to say that Jesus changed any part of the law is to say that he is a sinner, a false prophet, a liar, and to disregard his warning.

A few questions for you:

When you speak of living Mosaic Law ("ML"):

1. What are all the commandments of ML?​

Traditionally, there are 613 commandments of the ML, which are listed here:

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments-Mitzvot.htm

2. What precisely in ML is applicable & no longer applicable - what is lawful vs. lawlessness, all righteousness vs. unrighteousness?

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Mosaic Law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Mosaic Law, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22). So if we have faith that the Mosaic Law was given for our own good in order to bless us and to teach us how to rightly live (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), then lawfulness comes from then desire for as much of God's law as possible to be applicable to us, whereas lawlessness comes from the desire for God's law to not be applicable to us.

All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:169), so there are no laws that are no longer applicable, though there are laws that aren't currently applicable. For example, the Israelites were given commands before they had entered the promised land that were only applicable once they had entered it. When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to the Mosaic Law, which required them to have access to a temple that they didn't have access while they were in exile, but they were nevertheless faithful to obey as much of God's law as was applicable. The command to keep the 7th day holy is only applicable when it is the 7th day. In Ezekiel 44-46, it predicts a time when the 3rd temple will be built and when offerings will resume, so the fact that conditions are such that laws in regard to temple practice a currently not applicable does not mean that they have gone anywhere or that they no longer teach us about God's eternal nature.

Even when the law was first given to Moses, there wasn't a single person for whom all 613 commandments were applicable, and not even Jesus obeyed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Some laws were only applicable for the King, the High priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, widows, those who are married, those with servants, those with animals, those with drops, those with tzaraat, those living who are living in the land, and to strangers living among them, while others were applicable for everyone. So understanding how the Mosaic Law applies to us today is a matter of careful study, prayer, and leading of the Spirit.

3. Are both Jews & Gentiles in Christ subject to all the same commandments?

Yes, though how they applied was not necessarily the same even within Israel, such as with those who are priests. Israel was given the role by God of being a light and a blessing to the nations by testifying about God's nature through walking in His ways (Isaiah 2:2-3, 49:6). In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction of the nations seeing Israel's obedience to the Mosaic Law was to marvel at how great and wise God is, so they were testifying about who God is. In other words, the Mosaic Law was given to Israel as a tool to evangelize the nations.

4. What specifically is the "Law of Christ" spoken of in Gal6?

God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father which was given to Moses. In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul equated the Mosaic Law with the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ by contrasting them both with the law of sin and death. In 1 Corinthians 9:21, Paul said in a parallel statement that he was not outside of God's law, but under the Law of Christ, so again he equated it with the Mosaic Law. Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and it wouldn't make sense to think that the Law of Christ was something other than what Christ taught by word and by word and by example.

5. What precisely is the "law of liberty/freedom" and "royal law" spoken of by James?

In Psalms 19:7, the Mosaic Law is perfect, in Psalms 119:45, it is a law of liberty, and in Psalms 119:1, it blesses those who obey it, so when James 1:25 speaks about a perfect law of liberty that blesses those who obey it, he was not saying anything about the Mosaic Law that wasn't already said in the Psalms. In James 2:8, he described the royal law as loving our neighbor as ourselves, which is not distinct from the Mosaic Law because all of the Mosaic Law hangs on the greatest two commandments (Matthew 22:36-40).

6. Since our maturity is spoken of in part in Heb5:13-14 as becoming learned/skilled in God's "Word of Righteousness" and thereby having our faculties well-exercised in judging both good & bad, what do you study to be developed in such maturity - the above, and/or other things?

Yes, we are to study the Word of Righteousness, though studying other things can assist us in doing that. Are you asking me about some of the other things that I personally study?

7. Do you see this development to maturity taking place via study or do you see it just being downloaded (so to speak) such as with those who think there is some special relationship with the Spirit that they have, and/or who think that God speaks to them what they need to know?

That's a start.

Thanks!

​

In 1 Corinthians 12:28, God has appointed teachers, which implies that teachers still have a relevant role, which undermines the idea of everything being downloaded by the Spirit. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law, and in Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, so I think that the Spirit helps us to recognize the truth of what someone teaches us about the Word of Righteousness and to bear the fruit of it.

 

[GDL]

I use "His law" in a way that is interchangeable with the Mosaic Law because all of it was given by God

Thanks for your explanations.

and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to testify about His nature are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, so I deny that any part of the Mosaic Law has been changed

The Law was changed to provide for the High Priesthood of Messiah. This, however, does not alter the nature of God. Some also point out that Moses providing for some leniency in divorce was a change in God's original intent. I've also read about some other changes down through history, pre-incarnation, but would have to search for the articles.

Traditionally, there are 613 commandments of the ML, which are listed here:

Thanks for the link. I procured lists of the 613 decades ago, have seen chabad, and a few other Jewish & Messianic sites. I've also read some of Maimonides writings.

As I recall, a large percentage (40% +/-) of the 613 are from Leviticus and have to do with the Temple service & Levitical Priesthood.

I'll just say re: the rest of your response, that I began my walk, and remain in my walk in Christ as one with a great interest & love for God's Law. I think there is still a lot of work to do to deal with it accurately and to distinguish some of the terminology in the NC Writings. I likely don't see some things the way you do, but that's pretty normal for me. I do greatly appreciate your input and I do read quite a bit of Messianic material, including some of the disagreements within. My best assembly experience was in a small Messianic Temple for some years about 30 years ago. I've watched and tracked with interest some of the growth in the Messianic movement since before then.

As for the growth to maturity and the activity of the Spirit, I see the verses you referenced and others telling us that He does illuminate & guide us & train & discipline us. I also see the role of study & teachers and tend to shy away from most who suggest they know or can know what we are called to learn apart from putting the time in sitting at His feet reading, studying and asking Him for understanding.

As for the download, it was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but not a foreign concept if we listen to the ideas of some. I do still look at this verse periodically:

NKJ James 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

Thanks again for your reply.

 

[GDL]

Welcome GDL!

Thank you for your input! Much appreciated.

 

[GDL]

GDL, I'm particularly curious how you yourself would answer your last question, 7. Do you see this development to maturity taking place via study or do you see it just being downloaded (so to speak) such as with those who think there is some special relationship with the Spirit that they have, and/or who think that God speaks to them what they need to know? What has your experience been? I'd be interested to hear.

Sorry to be slow answering. At times, I tend to come & go a bit on these threads.

Part of my answer is near the end of my post #8. I will tell you that I'm very cautious with the Charismatic camps that tend to place much emphasis on experiences with the Spirit and way too little emphasis on the study of God's Word. I've had some very disturbing interactions with some of them and have found too many very poor interpretations and understandings of Scripture.

With that said, I've found what growth I've had to have come mainly from many years of studies with Him in His Word, especially after having attended seminary (not at a young age) mainly to learn the languages (mainly Greek), and then getting into my own studies and translating.

One of the main explanations of maturity is at the end of Hebrews 5 and into 6. It speaks of our maturity as our faculties having become well-exercised ("gymnazo") in judging both good & bad - being learned/skilled in the Word of Righteousness. Learned entails learning & skilled takes application and practice (well-exercised). Discipleship, learning, having our minds renewed is the emphasis as I see the process.

 

[1Cor3:20]

In Romans 6:19-23, presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the free gift of God. So being a slave to God and to righteousness by obeying the Mosaic Law is again the content of the free gift. Likewise, in John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is again the free gift of God and what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to experientially know Christ, which is the free gift of salvation.

''God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father which was given to Moses.

So to sum up what I think you wrote. The law of Christ is the law of Torah, the law of the Spirit and the law of the Father. And you enter life by obeying these commandments. So you would certainly not have the right to ignore any.
So, if the following are not obeyed/followed you are breaking the law of Torah, God I assume and cannot expect to inherit eternal life:

You must love your enemies(really love them) those who may malign or persecute you
You must lend to anyone who asks without expecting anything back
You must leap for joy if you are persecuted.
If someone steals anything of yours, you must give them more than what they stole with only love in your heart for them.
You should not invite friends or family home for a meal but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars so you may receive your reward in heaven
If you fast, make sure no one knows you are fasting.
You must avoid dwelling on impure thoughts
You must never look at a woman with lust in your eye.

To be completely honest with you, I never say I will enter heaven if I obey commandments, for I know how far short I fall in obedience to them. And I remember Jesus words:
The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you Matt7:2

 

[Soyeong]

So to sum up what I think you wrote. The law of Christ is the law of Torah, the law of the Spirit and the law of the Father. And you enter life by obeying these commandments. So you would certainly not have the right to ignore any.
So, if the following are not obeyed/followed you are breaking the law of Torah, God I assume and cannot expect to inherit eternal life:

You must love your enemies(really love them) those who may malign or persecute you
You must lend to anyone who asks without expecting anything back
You must leap for joy if you are persecuted.
If someone steals anything of yours, you must give them more than what they stole with only love in your heart for them.
You should not invite friends or family home for a meal but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars so you may receive your reward in heaven
If you fast, make sure no one knows you are fasting.
You must avoid dwelling on impure thoughts
You must never look at a woman with lust in your eye.

To be completely honest with you, I never say I will enter heaven if I obey commandments, for I know how far short I fall in obedience to them. And I remember Jesus words:
The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you Matt7:2

Hello,

Yes, the Torah is the Law of Christ and the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, and yes, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, however, Romans 6:23 described eternal life in Christ as being the gift of God, so it would be wrong to think that this is speaking about earning eternal life through having perfect obedience. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so we should always consider obedience to God's commandments to be expressing our faith, and it is by that same faith that we enter eternal life. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In John 3:36, believing Jesus is equated to obeying him. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like. So our obedience to God has always been about expressing our fain in Him to guide us in how to rightly live and has never been about depending our ourselves to have good enough performance.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Thinking that we needed to have perfect obedience would mean that God essentially gave the law with the goal of cursing His children when in reality it was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have already fallen short of perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we don't need perfect obedience.

 

[1Cor3:20]

Hello,

Yes, the Torah is the Law of Christ and the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, and yes, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, Romans 6:23 described eternal life in Christ as being the gift of God, so it would be wrong to think that this is speaking about earning eternal life through having perfect obedience. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so we should always consider obedience to God's commandments to be expressing our faith, and it is by that same faith that we enter eternal life. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In John 3:36, believing Jesus is equated to obeying him. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like. So our obedience to God has always been about expressing our fain in Him to guide us in how to rightly live and has never been about depending our ourselves to have good enough performance.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Thinking that we needed to have perfect obedience would mean that God essentially gave the law with the goal of cursing His children when in reality it was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have already fallen short of perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we don't need perfect obedience.

Thanks for your clarification. Perfect obedience is not required. Only when someone says you attain to eternal life if you obey the commandments, that can easily be construed rigidly as blanketly meaning what it says. In respect of obeying the second greatest commandment, it would be advisable I suggest to always add the caveat, that we ourselves do not always obey God's laws/Christs law, or much of the time not even try to obey many of them, or when we do try we fail miserably

 

[Soyeong]

Thanks for your explanations.

The Law was changed to provide for the High Priesthood of Messiah. This, however, does not alter the nature of God. Some also point out that Moses providing for some leniency in divorce was a change in God's original intent. I've also read about some other changes down through history, pre-incarnation, but would have to search for the articles.

You're welcome.

I do not see how the way to testify about God's nature could change without God's nature first changing. So I don't think that Hebrews 7:12 is referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming righteous to commit idolatry or sinful to help the poor, but rather the change of the law is in regard to a change in its administration, which would be required with the context speaking about the change of the priesthood.

I don't think that Matthew 19:3-9 is speaking about Moses providing some leniency. It is important to keep in mind that Jesus was asked whether a man was permitted to divorce his wife for any reason. For further context, Gittin 90a-b interpreted Deuteronomy 24:1-4 as saying that a man is permitted to divorce his wife if she ruined his meal or if he found someone who was prettier than her. Jesus was answering their question by saying that divorce over frivolous reasons was not the case from the beginning.

As I recall, a large percentage (40% +/-) of the 613 are from Leviticus and have to do with the Temple service & Levitical Priesthood.

Ya, a good chunk of laws in the Torah are only in regard to temple practice, so many Christians already follow a lot of the laws of the Torah that apply to us.

NKJ James 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

Thanks again for your reply.

For some reason, the translations that say "planted" rather than "implanted" sounds more like gentle growth and less like surgery.

 

[1Cor3:20]

Hi Soyeong, GDL, Imge, and LovesGodsWord. I'm looking forward to Soyeong when she answers and appreciate all of you posting such encouraging messages.

GDL, I'm particularly curious how you yourself would answer your last question, 7. Do you see this development to maturity taking place via study or do you see it just being downloaded (so to speak) such as with those who think there is some special relationship with the Spirit that they have, and/or who think that God speaks to them what they need to know? What has your experience been? I'd be interested to hear.

Can I interject here if I may? I’m not sure if there is reference to knowing God’s laws in the above, but I would like to give you my experience of that briefly if I may.

The first thing I noticed when I became a Christian was an awareness of my shortcomings before God. I was more and more acutely aware of them you may say as time progressed. As I was young, I had not at that time read Leviticus, or most of the Gospels. However, I was most aware I did not love as I should. I often got angry, had negative thoughts about others told some fibs etc. And all the time, I instinctively knew in my heart and mind these things were not living according to God’s ways. And I felt bad about my behaviour.

Then I reached puberty and the problems multiplied tenfold. Then I had impure thoughts, and in my heart and mind instinctively knew that was wrong also. I did not at that young age relate it to the tenth commandment, I did not consciously know it was that command I was breaking, only that I was failing to live as God wanted me to live, I was breaking his laws if you like. I became very crushed to be honest, for I was certainly not living as God wanted me to live according to his ways/laws. And yet, this knowledge of not living according to Gods ways had not been learnt through studying the bible, it was instinctive to me. It was just there, in my heart and mind.

I suppose some who believe all of Torah must be followed, may deduce God puts some of his laws in your heart and mind at conversion, but requires you to read the letter of others to know what they are. A halfway house so to speak.

 

[GDL]

but rather the change of the law is in regard to a change in its administration, which would be required with the context speaking about the change of the priesthood

Agree. I insinuated nothing more. But this is a change in His Law just as Hebrews says.

I don't think that Matthew 19:3-9 is speaking about Moses providing some leniency. It is important to keep in mind that Jesus was asked whether a man was permitted to divorce his wife for any reason. For further context, Gittin 90a-b interpreted Deuteronomy 24:1-4 as saying that a man is permitted to divorce his wife if she ruined his meal or if he found someone who was prettier than her. Jesus was answering their question by saying that divorce over frivolous reasons was not the case from the beginning.

Interesting, but this seems to clearly say Moses permitted/allowed it due to the condition of their hearts, but it was not always so.

so many Christians already follow a lot of the laws of the Torah that apply to us.

As does much of mankind or where would humanity be...

For some reason, the translations that say "planted" rather than "implanted" sounds more like gentle growth and less like surgery.

Yes, but planting is still an insertion & at times the insertion has seemed to be a bit painful - as has the growth process.

 

[GDL]

Can I interject here if I may? I’m not sure if there is reference to knowing God’s laws in the above, but I would like to give you my experience of that briefly if I may.

Certainly & welcomed!

I agree with much of the experience you speak of. And from Scripture (Heb9) it's apparent that the "perfection" of conscience is something being dealt with under the Priesthood of Christ.

For me it too seems the process of a sort of half-way-house you speak of - conscience & educating conscience/writing on hearts via study & experience as God leads & guides & tests & disciplines as only He can.

Thanks for the input.